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John 3rd -> Moves (7/29/2010 3:24:50 PM)

It is inappropriate to celebrate the victory at this point. We must first see how many CVs survive to reach Canton. There is a very strong chance that we'll lose both Shokaku and Zuikaku. If so the battle is a victory but it is in no way decisive for 1942. Additionally, I must make sure to raise the bag of sunken American ships and make sure none of those possibly crippled US CVs makes it to port. THAT is the key to making this one felt for a while.

Long-Term Strategy? We go with what Stanislav likes and Michael and I planned. We'll take NE India. We can gain Heavy Industry, Resources, and Fuel going there and--perhaps--trap a good-sized portion of the army in Burma there. This will buy us time as well as aid the economy.

I shall work to create the perimeter in the Pacific. Will shift troops around, reshuffle the Fleet, and get more Land and Air assets moved in from the DEI-Philippines. We do need to jump over and grab the western Aleutians. This will need to be done soon.

This Mod is unlike anything I've seen or imagined in terms of massed ship-building. We'll see how long the Americans take to reconstitute their Fleet...



Canoerebel -> RE: Changing 2x2 (7/29/2010 3:26:14 PM)

Ouch, poor Allied CVs.  However, the battle was not completely lopsided as mine usually are (I usually lose four CVs, my opponents none).  So it seems that this is a short term major victory - the question is whether the Japanese can convert it into the start of a steamroller (and whether the Allies contribute to the steamroller by reinforcing defeat).



John 3rd -> RE: Changing 2x2 (7/29/2010 3:31:56 PM)

Hey Dan. Your thinking is accurate. Excellent short-term victory. Long-Term--we shall see...

My initial thoughts--once the cripples make it home or sink--is to re-organize the Fleet and then do another Raid into deep water looking for Convoys. Problem here is that I need FUEL! Given a 2-3 weeks I should be somewhat replennished with fuel, airframes, and supply. We'll do some serious thinking at that point.

If I had more troops, I'd try to invade Palmyra and Christmas Island. Obviously those islands cannot be reinforced now and we could wipe out some serious American troops. Will do more Recon of those Islands and see what sort of troops are present...



John 3rd -> Disappointing.... (7/30/2010 5:03:27 AM)

Not much happens on February 23, 1942.

The Japanese lose CV Zuikaku before the day even gets started. Cv Shokaku looks like she won't make it to Canton either. SAD! [:o] At worst the Battle off Palmyra will feature the loss of three US Carriers for an equal number of Japanese. We are still holding out hope for at least one more CV.

Palmyra
As planned BB Musashi and BC Fuji bombard the base and manage to do quite well. They destroy about half-a-dozen planes on the AF and wreck the Port.

At Sea
During the day a small strike of 18 Zero, 19 Val, and 4 Kate sink CA Northampton and her lone escort DD Cummings.

Christmas
The American Fleet retreated here. Recon spots it and the Japanese move due South for another day of action. A STF moves to hit the base while the remaining 3 CVs prepare to attack. We'll see what dawn brings...






[image]local://upfiles/18041/29457E609E6C43849044829628D28DDB.jpg[/image]



FatR -> RE: Disappointing.... (7/30/2010 9:42:43 AM)

I do believe that your fleet sank 4 CVs. Unless FOW plays games with us, Saratoga appeared to be the only American CV in condition to make 7 hexes in a turn, and none of the American TFs were closer to Christmas than that.



FatR -> RE: Disappointing.... (7/31/2010 7:00:33 PM)

A Brief Overlook of the Legacy I Got

Japanese seem to be in great shape overall. Let's look at the main theaters.


Burma

Allies are scattered and on the run. Not many chances to put a successful resistance for them anymore. The only question is, how many troops can we destroy before they get away to India.




[image]local://upfiles/33131/90A2BCFF407144B2B96B2D3595FBCD62.jpg[/image]



FatR -> RE: Disappointing.... (7/31/2010 7:10:25 PM)

DEI

Taken, except for Java. I feel Japanese can seize Soerabaja and Batavia right away, but I want to entirely blockade them, particularly Soerabaja, first, to trigger capitulations and minimize the chance of damage to facilities (it is impossible to completely guarantee taking the facilities undamaged, they can be partially wrecked even if there was no enemy troops at the hex at all).

Michael also expanded into Northern Australia, taking Darwin and everything on the coast east of Port Hedland. I want to take Port Hedland/Corunna Downs and also expand to Tennant Creek to support John's obfuscating offensive along the east coast. And then leave only tripwire forces and garrizon strongly only Port Hedland and maybe Darwin.

[image]local://upfiles/33131/0F5999FE92694128A91FC1A2226B39A2.jpg[/image]



FatR -> RE: Disappointing.... (7/31/2010 7:15:06 PM)

Philippines

Luzon is about to be cleared with the fall of Bataan. Secondary targets still are untouched. I found a strong garrizon with air support on an island that controls Surigao Strait. Was it placed there as a part of hunt for Allied shipping early in the war?

[image]local://upfiles/33131/90AE68BB35DD424D9FC7067BA8CA27E9.jpg[/image]



FatR -> RE: Disappointing.... (7/31/2010 7:22:26 PM)

China

Central Plains are mostly cleared and Wenchow is doomed to fall. Better yet, there is strong Chinese presence in the north, across Chengting-Sian road, but the garrizon at Nanyang seems minimal. I see an opportunity to do what I failed to do against buffed Chinese in my own PBEM and push straight to Sian. As a secondary operation to secure our center, I intend to attack the Chinese army that foolishly hangs in the open next to Nanchang. It doesn't seem to be big enough to withstand a 3-division assault. Then I'll be able to move troops from the central sector to supplement other operations.

[image]local://upfiles/33131/DFC87E8EB8274C7EA604181059366319.jpg[/image]



ny59giants -> RE: Disappointing.... (7/31/2010 8:38:18 PM)

quote:

I found a strong garrison with air support on an island that controls Surigao Strait. Was it placed there as a part of hunt for Allied shipping early in the war?


Placed to provide an air bridge for the short legged LBA to get from up north (Formosa) all the way to the Marshall Islands. Also to provide a safe base for recon and some obsolete LB for ground support, if needed, to conquer the rest of the Philippines.



John 3rd -> Scratch One More! (8/1/2010 4:25:11 AM)

The Battle continues on for another two days. There will be more action tomorrow. It is now safe to say that the Japanese lost 3 CV in exchange for FIVE American!

BANZAI!

The USS Saratoga is finished this turn. No one saw it sink but this showed up after it was pasted by 10 bombs on February 24, 1942:



[image]local://upfiles/18041/B95CE838A76A4EC7B04A81480934D9CC.jpg[/image]

Two full squadrons of Wildcats as well as 18 SBD and 15 TBD. Though costly, the Pacific is now controlled by the Kaigun!

BANZAI!



Nemo121 -> RE: Scratch One More! (8/1/2010 5:06:21 AM)

3 for 5 might be a tactical victory but strategically it also means that the US will gain parity in the Pacific a few months earlier than it otherwise would.

Strategically the ability of the IJN to rule the waves has increased until the end of 1942 ( at which point in time parity will be established by the USN ) but the ability of the IJN to force landings in the face of significant land-based air has decreased.

In short the time at which the IJN has to transition to the defensive/raiding posture has been accelerated by a few months and the ability to project power into an area of multiple land bases has been, largely, lost. No more invasion of Hawaii or India after this battle. That's a pretty priceless victory for the Allied players' peace of mind and should allow them to forward deploy their USAAF assets more.


On the other hand the shockingly one-sided loss rate in A2A combat speaks to them not being able to capitalise on this. Other games, at this same time, are acheiving 1:1 or better A2A losses but the Allies are losing about 4 to every 1 you lose. That, obviously, stands to your favour and shows they may prove incapable of capitalising on this.



witpqs -> RE: Scratch One More! (8/1/2010 7:38:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

On the other hand the shockingly one-sided loss rate in A2A combat speaks to them not being able to capitalise on this. Other games, at this same time, are acheiving 1:1 or better A2A losses but the Allies are losing about 4 to every 1 you lose. That, obviously, stands to your favour and shows they may prove incapable of capitalising on this.


Is that due to this mod?



FatR -> RE: Scratch One More! (8/1/2010 8:07:19 AM)

I believe in general Allies take disproportionate air losses in this game because they fight hopeless air fights, where a couple of Warhawks gets gangbanged by hordes of Japanese planes turn after turn. Why they suffered so badly in this particular carrier battle, I can only guess.

Nemo, I don't believe that the invasion of India is no longer possible (and I don't even believe that this battle actually reduced our chances of conquering hard targers, compared to what they were before the battle). This is a mod, and we still have 5 operational CVs, plus some pretty good CVLs. We'll need to mass all of our carriers from now on, though, so I'm going to give all of the decks that Michael had under his command to John.

Michael, thanks for the clarification, that's pretty good planning on your part.



FatR -> As about the plans... (8/1/2010 8:45:01 AM)

Proposal for the New General Army-Navy Agreement on the Conduct of Operations

OK, that sounds quite pompous, but actually my proposal is quite simple:

1)With loss of 5 CVs, 1 fast BB, 3-4 CAs and 1 CL, USN just ceased to exist as an effective fighting force for the next several months. I'm willing to bet, that our opponents, even after divining, through the air losses screen, that IJN lost several carriers, won't be willing to risk another major commitment until late in 1942 at the earliest. Moreover, looks like we already hold more than we might want for our perimiter in the Pacific. Except Midway and Aleutians, maybe. Those might be important as forward raider and sub bases. But now we can pick them at our leisure sometime in the summer.

Therefore, Pacific does not require a major fleet commitment in the immediate future anymore.

2)This means we can commit the vast majority of our naval assets to the Indian operation. As a large-scale invasion of India is extremely likely to tie the western part of Allied assets down, this also means, that we can commit the vast majority of our LCUs to the Indian operation, leaving in DEI only enough to provide garrizons.

Therefore, I believe that we have a shot at conquering India entirely.


3)To conquer India, we need to cut off the flow of Allied reinforcements from Aden. To do this, we need to establish Netty and surface raider bases on the western coast of India or close to it.

I do believe, that this will be very hard to do by landing on the eastern coast and driving towards them by ground. Unless our opponents deploy their forces stupidly, they'll be able to use their superior mobility by railroads to erect roadblocks in rough terrain whatever we target. And we will probably not have enough men and metal to force our way through in time.

But if we use a massed force to seize Ceilon, and then amphbiously attack a coastal base of your choosing, one of those to which arrows point on the map below - we'll be able to take it easily, because it is impossible for Allies to strongly garrizon everything.

This part of the operation should be the responsibility of the Navy, i.e., yours

4)To make it much less possible for Allies to strongly garrizon everything, Army, i.e., myself, will launch an overland drive for Burma in the nearest future. Preferably as soon as Irrawaddy valley is secured and before the remnants of Burma corps can cross jungle into India. I'll need some surface units and amphibious capability to support this drive by pounding airfields, hauling supplies and possibly landing behind the enemy roadblocks. The general direction of my offensive is also shown on the map.

5)If you agree with the general idea, John, we can proceed with distributing ground assets between the two fronts of the Indian operation. But considering the supreme effort this invasion will require, I'm against sending any major LCUs into the Pacific at the moment. Nothing greater than naval garrizons and engineers/air support to form a perimeter of airbases. But I do believe that you'll be able to return KB to Pacific soon enough to discourage any signfificant Allied movements there.

[image]local://upfiles/33131/F5D309108BA1412A9DA903850B109E37.jpg[/image]



janh -> RE: As about the plans... (8/1/2010 9:55:56 AM)

This is a quite interesting mod, indeed.  And an interesting planning discussion! I have no idea what CV/L/E replacements are for this scenario though. 

One question I would like to ask at this point:  Have you guys considered taking out the Hawaiian Islands by invasion prior to going westward with your major effort?  Would an allied player be obliged to retake them in order to successfully counterattack the Japanese in OZ/South East PAC or even CentPAC?



John 3rd -> RE: As about the plans... (8/1/2010 11:24:27 PM)

For the most part I concur with Nemo's Thread Entry.

The loss of 3 CVs is serious. We won a tactical victory that WILL forestall any American activity for at least 4-6 months. During that time we shall gain 2-3 new CVs so we'll be back to where we were. Need to see what we have for fragments and number of pilots to ascertain the damage done to our pilot Corps.

On the OTHER hand I agree with Stanislav that we have a window of opportunity for a move into the IO. I doubt if we can take India. I tried that in WitP without success and feel it is even more difficult in AE. I would prefer to make a Landing with the intention of cutting off NE India and try to gain a large-scale ground victory. Though difficult, this might be attainable. If NOTHING else we would establish a buffer keeping the Allies far from Burma and the DEI as well as gain the temporary benefit of the HI, LI, Oil, etc...from the conquered region.

I believe in a MASSED landing that can breakout, cut the RR Line (Paras), and win a reasonably quick victory. The Navy can move into the IO and WHOOP some British tail and would be GLAD to do so.

This is the Navy's perspective.



John 3rd -> RE: As about the plans... (8/1/2010 11:52:48 PM)

I should add a couple of things to what was said above:

1. I'll need probably 3-4 weeks to do upkeep, upgrades, as well as position the Fleet. When we move, I would like to lead into the IO with the entire CV Fleet concentrated and entering from the South of Ceylon with the hopes of catching TF and shipping in an exposed manner.

2. Will immediately order all AOs to head for DEI to begin loading fuel. Keep in mind Stanislav that this operation will cost a TON of fuel...

3. We could land in the Maldives to establish a Recon/Air Search set of bases that would REALLY extend the Allied supply line. We'd grab it, hold it with just enough force to necessitate a serious landing, and base aircraft with long enough range to head for home when needed.

4. The BB Fleet is fully intact and can rumble (provide Invasion Force Cover and Bombardment) when ready. Lots MORE fuel here. We'll need to preposition AKE and other Support Shipping at Rangoon probably.



FatR -> RE: As about the plans... (8/2/2010 8:26:07 AM)

I don't believe that cutting the raillines by paradrop is viable. First, there are FOUR railroad tracks leading to Bengalia, and only two of them can be reliably cut by an amphibious force (say, landing at Vizagapatnam area). Second, with local supply production British should be able to avoid total collapse long enough to clear out the paras.

I think, my plan by no means guarantees success but is doable. This mod gives Japanese a stronger advantage, particularly naval and air advantage at the beginning, but offers Allies much, much stronger reinforcements, so I believe we should be more ambitious. I want to give Allies a decisive battle on the plains of Bengalia, at the time when Japanese aviation still rules the air, but unless the flow of reinforcements to India is cut, this all will come to nothing and we'll be evicted in the autumn of 1942.

If you disagree, I'll still move to Bengalia, just to kill some Allied troops, while I can, and help to secure Burma, but I believe this will have quite limited positive strategic effect in the long run.



bklooste -> RE: As about the plans... (8/2/2010 12:25:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

I don't believe that cutting the raillines by paradrop is viable. First, there are FOUR railroad tracks leading to Bengalia, and only two of them can be reliably cut by an amphibious force (say, landing at Vizagapatnam area). Second, with local supply production British should be able to avoid total collapse long enough to clear out the paras.

I think, my plan is by no means guarantees success but is doable. This mod gives Japanese a stronger advantage, particularly naval and air advantage at the beginning, but offers Allies much, much stronger reinforcements, so I believe we should be more ambitious. I want to give Allies a decisive battle on the plains of Bengalia, at the time when Japanese aviation still rules the air, but unless the flow of reinforcements to India is cut, this all will come to nothing and we'll be evicted in the autumn of 1942.

If you disagree, I'll still move to Bengalia, just to kill some Allied troops, while I can, and help to secure Burma, but I believe this will have quite limited positive strategic effect in the long run.


I like the proposal since it may bag a signifcant portion of the Burmese army in eastern India which has some nice long term benefits. Further more its flexible..

eg
1. Burma land push - allied reinforcements sent easts.
2. Ceylon ( ok maybe going for east India) , some minor panic here
3. From Ceylon cross into southern India ( expected and he will have some troops there) , minor diversion
3. West coast landings these will surprise him and my hunch is they will rail a ton of stuff there completely diluting his effort.
4. This would create a good opportunity to land near Diamond harbour ( using the Ceylon troops and South India) and crush the English Burmese army,

Lots of flexability if he doesnt weaken the eastern India force you can take the West and South India , if he doesnt counter South India you just take it all.

Can you send anything from China overland ? ( HR etc)

If you do go for Inida taking it shouldnt be the objective but killing the unrestricted troops.






John 3rd -> RE: As about the plans... (8/3/2010 1:42:38 AM)

How often can I be accused of CAUTION??!! Wow.

Points:
1. We first have to prop up the Allied Camp. One of our Allied commanders wants out due to the victory over the American CVs. He is very depressed. This must be dealt with before going into a serious planning phase for India.

2. India--IF staged as a DEEP RAID starting on the West Coast and moving east--is slightly different then what I thought the plan was originally. If we look to a massed, surprise assault on the West Coast that then moves east towards NE India and Burma--I imagine a Hammer driving towards the Anvil--then that is a highly intriguing idea. It is daring but NOT CRAZY...

3. In many ways it reminds me of the crazy plan I launched against Canoerebel in our WitP Campaign. I do so love audacity... [sm=fighting0083.gif]

If this is the plan then we would need a CRAPLOAD of supply to keep everything moving once the Operation begins. Fuel would be the same.

Is what I have stated accurate for the vision you have Stanislav?



FatR -> RE: As about the plans... (8/3/2010 3:58:54 PM)

Well, it is certainly can be possible to develop a strong offensive from your future strongholds on the western coast, if most of the Allied forces will be tied battling my overland drive in Bengalia. Northwest of India, to which you can and should (because we need Betties covering everything up to Karachi if we're to succeed) jump after taking one of the targets I've outlined on my map is mostly open terrain, and has several invasion spots that cannot be really covered. This idea might also have merit because of the strategic suprrise a move this deep can achieve. But we'll need to take into account the Allied reaction obviously.

As about supply, it is going to be a problem initially, but with minimal damage to DEI resource and LI, as well as a lot of industry to capture and turn against Allies, this should be manageable

Also, I'll keep carriers and the rest in Singapore for now, you can pick them up wheh you're ready.



Canoerebel -> RE: As about the plans... (8/3/2010 5:37:28 PM)

I think I'm confused. You guys keep referring to "western India." To me that means Bombay, Goa, and vicinity, but it seems like you may be referring to another part?



FatR -> RE: As about the plans... (8/3/2010 9:12:44 PM)

No, I refer exactly to this area. See the proposed direction for Japanese amphbious advance on my map. I postulate, that Japanese need to seize bases there to prevent Allies from pumping reinforcements into India (both extra divisions and normal reinforcements). Or, at least, make any reinforcement operations risky and costly. Yes, not an easy goal, but I believe it is possible.



John 3rd -> RE: As about the plans... (8/4/2010 5:11:43 AM)

I believe that I am the doubting Mufasa in this plan. The chances of us successfully taking Bombay is fairly thin. The only real chance is for us to sneak along the edge of map and then swing in with no warning and deposit a HUGE number of men. I am talking like 5 Inf Div with bunches of TKs and support troops. If we START with that landing and then bring in more elsewhere we have a chance to bag a ton of troops and get Bombay fairly cheap. Looking at the map this would probably mean Goa and then drive on Bombay.

Wonder how tough the CD is at Bombay? Could we dare a direct landing there?

The key to this insanity would be surprise. If we can land with only a day or two of warning we can be through the town before anything can be re-deployed.




krupp_88mm -> RE: As about the plans... (8/4/2010 9:27:34 AM)

what about leveraging your sea power while you can and blockade the US west coast, how would limiting the flow of resources from the US west coat now affect their military actions later, your carriers can operate in small task forces maintaining a blockade and rotate out for supplies / refits until new us flattops arrive



FatR -> RE: As about the plans... (8/4/2010 10:59:27 AM)

I do believe, that the vast majority of Allied players will throw everything they can to stop Japanese at Ceilon and Bengalia, so the defenses along the western coast will be left weak, assuming you can win at Ceilon and devastate Allied forces there. This applies to their air arm even more than to their LCUs. British and Commonwealth reinforcements are very meagre at this stage. And I hope RN will be drawn into battle of Ceilon as well, in which our superior naval forces are very likely to inflict disproportionate casualties on it.

As about CD guns, IIRC, in India Allies don't have heavier CD guns than 6-inchers. And considering landing zones, I'd prefer Ahmadabad (light urban hex, instead of heavy urban in Bombay, an open terrain base hex, suited for landing, right next to it, open terrain around) in the second stage and Goa/Mandalore (whatever will have weaker defences) in the first stage, to serve as initial bases from which IJN and Netty forces shall blockade the flow of reinforcements to India. Sure, Bombay has a shipyard, but at this stage we'll have one in Colombo anyway.

I admit, this is a risky plan. But I believe, that even if it ultimately fails, it'll leave us in better position for the transition to defensive posture than not utilizing IJN's capabilities maximally to launch a strategic offensive while we can. And India is the best - and if your and Michael's strategic deception workrf, also the easiest - goal for such an offensive.



ny59giants -> RE: As about the plans... (8/4/2010 1:40:36 PM)

I know this may sound even more far fetched than current ideas, but "if' you are going for the total conquest of India, then you may need to be even more out of the box. I would land a small force at Addu. the AF is (1)0 and could be expanded to size 2 to support Nell/Betty. This would be enough to isolate Colombo from reinforcements from the sea.

My main invasion would be at both Surat and Bhaunugar (midway between Bombay and Karachi). If you need to isoalate India from Aden, then you need to get Nell/Betty close enough to Karachi (and within extended Zero range of 14). This would happen here. Surat also comes with a size 10 Repair Shipyard that probably can be expended. Most of the Japanese Fleet would be involved.

See what happens to my thought process after being around John for so many years. [:D]



John 3rd -> RE: As about the plans... (8/4/2010 3:03:18 PM)

If we want to be daring--read CRAZY by my view of this--then Michael's suggestion is excellent...



Canoerebel -> RE: As about the plans... (8/4/2010 3:14:35 PM)

I hope you guys do it, because it would be interesting, challenging, and fun to observe.

But you know how these things will turn out: (1) Wow, we've achieved massive strategic surprise! (2) Wow, we're making fabulous progress! (3) Wow, the Allies are in full retreat! (4) Hmm, the Allies have slowed down, they're making a stand here, and there are some units over here threatening our LOC... (5) Whoa, I didn't expect that problem! (6) Uh oh, Allied counterattack did this and that which really messes with our logistics and time frame (7) Oops, we're running out of momentum (8) We'll try to salvage this by drawing and inside strait (9) Yikes, the Allies are invading somewhere critical far away and we can't do anything to stop them, and (10) Everything is a shambles, but it was fun trying.



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