RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (Full Version)

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elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/8/2010 9:20:40 PM)

10/2/41 (turn 16):  "General Elmo you have received an urgent communications from the Fuhrer.  He says under no circumstances are you to withdraw from in front of Moscow."  "You think that's what it says but I think it was garbled in transmission.  Ask them to resend it and take you sweet time doing it."  "Yes sir."

Well what is Hitler going to do, send me to the Eastern Front for disobeying his orders?!

Note how slowly AGC armor is withdrawing due to the mud.  I'm going to pull back a bit further while trying to widen the flanks and create something we may be able to defend for the Winter.  Perhaps we can pocket some Soviets on the flanks too.  In the North we'd like to move up to the minor river west of Velikie Luki and take the city if we can.  On the southern flank we'd like to take Kaluga and form a line running West from there.  Moscow will have to wait until '42.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGCturn16.jpg[/image]





wiking62 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/8/2010 9:31:56 PM)

Wise choice to withdraw and wait for 1942. Your position was looking too precarious for my liking.

Not tempted to punch through to Rzhev before winter arrives?



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/8/2010 9:36:04 PM)

10/2/41 turn 16:  One of two things will happen as a result of the bold move made by von Rundstedt's AGS this turn.  Either his encirclement using 1st Pz Grp (red) will work in the next two turns in which case he will be replacing me at OKH, or it will fail in which case I'll have company in front of the firing squad.  The first shot is from the start of the turn.  Note all the Soviet airbases behind the lines.  In the second shot you can see they are gone thanks to the 11th Pz Div which drove deep behind Soviet lines to overrun them.  If we get mud down here next turn 1st Pz Grp will really be in trouble.  If it stays dry we will continue to go for the big pocket. It's also possible this breakthrough will trigger a full scale withdrawal by the Soviets to a better position farther East, which would really be OK with me.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGSbefore.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGSturn16.jpg[/image]

Since this covers most of the far south action I won't bother with another screen shot for this turn except for the losses which will come after the AI does it's part of the turn.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/8/2010 9:37:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

...

Not tempted to punch through to Rzhev before winter arrives?


That might be a bridge too far unless we could pocket the Soviets between there and Velikie Luki. Otherwise it would jut create another bulge in a different direction.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/8/2010 10:17:41 PM)

Losses through 10/2/41 turn 16:

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn16groundlosses.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn16airlosses.jpg[/image]



zbig -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/8/2010 10:26:22 PM)

I understand that you wanted to head for Moscow to test the AI but in retrospect, would it have been better to try to pocket the Soviet forces in front of Moscow and advance in a wider front?



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/8/2010 10:26:32 PM)

And the good news is that turn 17 has Clear weather in all four zones.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/8/2010 10:29:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zbig

I understand that you wanted to head for Moscow to test the AI but in retrospect, would it have been better to try to pocket the Soviet forces in front of Moscow and advance in a wider front?


Yes unless there was some kind of automatic victory for taking Moscow. Unlikely that will be the case so defeating the defenders in front of AGC would have probably been the better plan.



Zorch -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 1:09:18 AM)

Is it ahistorical to have clear weather after mud season starts? From the accounts, it sounds like once mud started, it stayed muddy until everything froze over.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 2:31:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Is it ahistorical to have clear weather after mud season starts? From the accounts, it sounds like once mud started, it stayed muddy until everything froze over.


I'm playing random weather so it does not necessarily follow history.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 12:28:10 PM)

quote:

On the southern flank we'd like to take Kaluga and form a line running West from there.


You'd end up with an arrow point shaped line with Kaluga at the tip, which might be tricky to defend. I was initially going to suggest you'd defend at Kaluga, but it seemed to be more dangerous as you'd end up with a bulge in Soviet lines.

quote:

Either his encirclement using 1st Pz Grp (red) will work


Which forces do you intend to encircle? As you're trying to create a pocket using only one pincer, I don't think you'll be able to pocket much, although the AI will probably have to pull back some forces.

quote:

Is it ahistorical to have clear weather after mud season starts? From the accounts, it sounds like once mud started, it stayed muddy until everything froze over.


Mud dries up fairly quickly, although it does depend on the type of soil. Muddy steppes will harden again in a few days of sunshine, it happened in real life. The really bad weather basically only started in November in real life, prior to that there were some muddy days but the temperature was high enough for most of it to dry up again.



wiking62 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 12:54:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

...

Not tempted to punch through to Rzhev before winter arrives?


That might be a bridge too far unless we could pocket the Soviets between there and Velikie Luki. Otherwise it would jut create another bulge in a different direction.



That would be my intention, to create another pocket between Rzhev and Velikie Luki.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 1:18:35 PM)

quote:

That would be my intention, to create another pocket between Rzhev and Velikie Luki.


Indeed, even though there are now armoured forces in the area which might make the creation of a pocket more difficult, I still support my earlier suggestion.

Elmo, you could try a feint withdrawal towards Vitebsk to lure the Rifle formations near Velikiye Luki a bit further in, so you can trap them more easily later.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 1:31:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

...

Which forces do you intend to encircle? As you're trying to create a pocket using only one pincer, I don't think you'll be able to pocket much, although the AI will probably have to pull back some forces.

...


I'm trying to break out from the west side with 11th Army but they have not been able to achieve that yet. My "fish hook" with 1st Pz Grp units may be enough to convince the AI to pull back. Even that would be good so we can straighten the line.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 1:33:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Elmo, you could try a feint withdrawal towards Vitebsk to lure the Rifle formations near Velikiye Luki a bit further in, so you can trap them more easily later.


Only if I could be sure of making the pocket. Otherwise I'd be giving up ground where I'm trying to expand. We'll see what happens this turn with my armored. We may be trying to do too much to expand the bulge on both sides.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 5:29:16 PM)

My turn is coming along nicely but I won't have time to post the results until later today.



Capt Cliff -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 7:10:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Is it ahistorical to have clear weather after mud season starts? From the accounts, it sounds like once mud started, it stayed muddy until everything froze over.


An excellant point whether playing historical or random weather. Turns are weekly? So ther ground should stay mushy/soft for a week. An even then it will take heat or hot weather to dry it out. Perhaps your weather algorithm needs fixing! The ground stays soft, but you do have clear weather for flying missions, until certain criteria happens; time of year, temperature, etc. so that the weather isn't wonky.



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 7:48:31 PM)

quote:

An excellant point whether playing historical or random weather. Turns are weekly? So ther ground should stay mushy/soft for a week. An even then it will take heat or hot weather to dry it out. Perhaps your weather algorithm needs fixing! The ground stays soft, but you do have clear weather for flying missions, until certain criteria happens; time of year, temperature, etc. so that the weather isn't wonky.


Weather can change a lot in a week, I'm assuming it's the average type of weather that the weather report gives us. As I said earlier, the weather in October was still good enough for the mud to dry up and the ground switch to what we would call clear/dry weather conditions. Mud could come and go quickly in Russia. A good early war example would be the Second Battle of Kharkov where mud appeared even though it was quite warm already. The mud disappeared as quickly as it had appeared.



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 9:01:39 PM)

10/9/41 (turn 17)  Our assault on Pushkin went well and we occupied the city.  We had over 135,000 men, 1,400 artillery pieces, 500 armored vehicles, 60 fighters and 60 bombers in the assault against about 50,000 Soviet infantry with 500 artillery.  Next we'll need to clear the defenders in front of Kolpino so we can take that city and then begin the assault on Leningrad.  We're alos trying to push back the Soviets south of Leningrad to help maintain a short front for the coming winter.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGNturn17.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 9:14:15 PM)

10/9/41 (turn 17)  The die has been cast for AGC.  We will try to either pocket or force back the Soviets along the line from Rzhev to Veilkie Luki.  The two reasons I chose this flank rather than the southern one is that it if successful it will open up a second rail line for supply in winter, and for the offensive next year, and the Soviet forces on this flank looked weaker to me.  You can see the rail line pretty clearly in the screen shot.  We'll try another fish hook maneuver as AGS did last turn (more on that below) and either link up with 9th Army near Velikie Luki for the pocket or move the whole flank northward if the Soviets withdraw to widen our bulge to a more reasonable distance.  We will pull back a bit further along the front of the bulge but not much further.  Kaluga probably won't be taken unless we can induce the Soviets to pull back first.

One possible flaw in my plan is that intelligence has unconfirmed reports that some new, possibly more aggressive, Soviet generals have taken command of forces all along the front.  IOW we got a new update from Gary.  It will be interesting to see the AI part of this turn.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGCturn17.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 9:34:02 PM)

10/9/41 (turn 17)  The Soviets had two choices after the "fish hook" breakout of 1st Pz Grp along and across the Dnepr; stand and risk being pocketed or fall back.  They chose the latter which IMHO was correct since there was little ground worth fighting for in the area shown in my screen shot.  The plan is to use teh same tactic with AGC forces and see which choice teh AI makes there.  A few units did stay to defend the cities and they will be mopped up next turn.  You can also see my line starting to form around Kiev and extending south.  Most likely we will stop at the Cherkassy - Kirovograd - Ingul River line for the winter.  We could keep pushing East to the Krivoi Rog - Ingulets River line but that would extend the length of my line for not much gain.  We need to start digging in very soon along the entire line as every level of fortification we build now will help hold the line when General Winter arrives.

Something I have not mentioned up to now is the Admin points both sides get.  The Axis mostly uses theirs for transferring units and replacing Generals.  The Soviets use them that and for building new units too.  And both sides can use the points to build special combat units called Fortified Regions (Soviet) or Fortified Zones (Axis).  These units start as empty shells and must receive replacements to become active.  They count for stacking and can have support units assigned to them.  They don't move and are destroyed if forced to retreat.  There may be places where my line will be weakly held so building some of these units may help with our Winter defense.  Well see how the line shapes up and then decide.

Taking a break for a while and later I'll post the losses after the AI part of the turn.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARAGSturn17.jpg[/image]



ComradeP -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 9:46:20 PM)

Wow, impressive progress in the AGS sector, now you'll hopefully have plenty of time to dig in. I see the AI has placed a Army or Front HQ at the frontline.

What does the X indicate in the stack with the Security regiment in Leningrad?



Balou -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 9:52:11 PM)

elmo,

What does the little star icon in Moscow indicate ?



Joel Billings -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 10:17:43 PM)

Gary worked on the Soviet AI to make it more likely to counterattack when the option looks good. Tough to do without making the AI too aggressive. Using a turn 15 save from Lee, the new AI counterattacked in many places, not just the sides of the Moscow salient. It must have made 30 attacks. Total losses were 50k for the Soviets and 15k for the Germans. Not too bad of a ratio for 1941. The good thing about it was it pushed the flanks in so that the German salient had only a 10 mile wide corridor to the eastern most 10 hexes of the salient. Given the extra MP costs for zoc to zoc movement, it would have cut down on the supplies to the units at the tip of the salient. I'm sure Lee could have pulled back and widened the salient, but it would have given him something to think about. It will be interesting to see what it does now given Lee's recent moves.



Zorch -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 10:20:09 PM)

It would be interesting to compare the Soviet view (of any given turn) with the German one. Can't wait for a 2 player AAR.
Is there (or will there be) a Replay function that would show the entire war unfolding, without FoW?



USSLockwood -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 10:32:14 PM)

Brilliant AAR Elmo, I particularly am enjoying the travails of AGC. 



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 10:33:31 PM)

Losses through the week of 10/9/41 (turn 17):

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn17groundlosses.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/AARturn17airlosses.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 11:06:45 PM)

Normally I don't show screen shots from the start of my turn because they the same as what you saw the previous turn.  However these screen shots come under the category of "Be careful what you wish for.".  A few of us have been badgering Joel about making the Soviet AI a bit more aggressive.  Looks like we got our wish.  All those yellow and red tank symbols are AI attacks.  Most caused me some attrition but no loss of ground.  However around Vyazma the AI has broken through my lines as you can see.  Some of my HQ's had to displace but luckily we held a 10 mile wide corridor of ground to keep the supply lines open. And yes the ground is white because it is snowing in zones 2,3, and 4. Zone 1 is mud.

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/Sovietcounterattacks.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll55/Andru_Hammerskjold/Sovietcounterattacks2.jpg[/image]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 11:09:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

...

What does the X indicate in the stack with the Security regiment in Leningrad?


It means the defense value of the stack in over 100. [:(]



elmo3 -> RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR (3/9/2010 11:10:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

elmo,

What does the little star icon in Moscow indicate ?


It's the capital. Berlin has one too.



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