Play balance/Could use some advice (Full Version)

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Maximeba -> Play balance/Could use some advice (2/16/2010 2:57:55 AM)

We now have played the 39 scenario 5 times. We never completed a game because it seems around turn 130 to 140 the game becomes lopsided to the advantage of the Allies. We made some house rules for this next game, trying to help the Axis player:
1) Put Germany on easy.
2) Germany or Russia may not attack each other for 1 year, with the year start date being on the first day of the fall of Poland.
3) No more than 10 percent of a country's pps for the current turn may be lent to a country.
4) Lending can only go 1 way, so if Germany lends pps to Italy then Italy could not lend to Germany (use of the f11 key).
This option is for land lock countries only, otherwise they would have to use stps.

Here's the rub, the 10 percent rule was originally for the land lock countries. What I thought was a good rule is coming back to haunt the Allies. Great Britain can't send more than 2 or 3 pps per turn to France, and it's November 39 and the Germans are marching through France. Seeing all of this I'm worried about Russia. Will they be able to withstand a German onslaught? Especially if I can only send 30 pps from America in a turn. Maybe I'm worried about nothing, so here is the question...Does anyone have an idea of how much in supplies the Americans and Great Britain sent to the motherland? And what would be a reasonable percentage in game terms?



Uxbridge -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/16/2010 8:45:16 PM)

This play balance issue is one of the major things I have tried to fix in ETO. The problem in the vanilla game is that all nations fight with basically the same prerequisite. Germany have a certain early advantage, but once the Allies catch up they are just as good in every respect. In ETO the Germans are always the better. If they have a full strength level-4 armour unit, the Russians can never match it. What will break the Germans in the end is the economy, as losses gradually destroys the Wehrmacht from within. Thus it is possible to unleash larger German operations post-41 as well, although each new year will see more and more limited scopes of these operations.

I have seen your many posts and you seem just as hooked as I. If you like to try ETO, with your oponent only or as a member of a larger team at HQ, just let me know.



Maximeba -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/19/2010 4:14:48 AM)

Thanks, for the reply. I do love this game.... I play some every night, never played a solo game only against another person. I'm lucky that I have a friend that I've been playing against for 30 some years. I like the points you make and I have to agree that the Germans should have an advantage. After all they do seem to be on the cutting edge when it came to technical development of the military. I also agree it was the Russian and US economy and a beaten up Britain that wore the German military machine down.
I've seen the ETO in the mod section of this forum, so I will download and try. Hopefully this will solve some of the problems that the Germans are having and will create a better game for both of us.
I would love to join a team and beat the snot out of someone! Or maybe I might get the snot beaten out of me! Either way I would like to get in.



von altair -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/19/2010 4:33:35 AM)

I've played some Barbarossa -41 games and I must say that the game is unbalanced. German is not in real condition
for the great strike to the east. Units are not even full str in east. Air units are down to 25%-40% and land units
are about 80-90%. I don't get this, Germans should have prepared units, ready for the invasion. Russians instead
have healthy units in FORTIFIED lines at border. Things doesn't make sense here. Also I have find out, that full str
bomber unit, while doing regular bombing run against LOW status corps with 0 AA techs causes 1 air unit
casualty with 70% chance. This even in open terrain where land unit doesn't have ANY cover. Bombers takes
way too much casualties in recent patch from land units. This is also badly out of balance. Has anyone else
see any of these problems?

I like this game a lot, but balance needs some rework.



billyjj -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/19/2010 7:59:02 AM)

The bombers are a problem, and they are extremely expensive to fix. I almost always lose 1 str when attacking. One thing i did notice is the max damage you can do with a bomber at sea is 1 hit point, even if you are at 10 str so there really is no reason to repair a bomber up to 10 str just keep it around 3 or 4 and if it gets down to 2 just fix it a little bit. Also I been noticing that I was playing germany and stategic bombing england, well I lose 1 str a good 50% maybe more of the time it cost me 20 something PP per str point to repair my bombers, and I do maybe 3 or 4 PP damage to a city. So just who is strategically bombing who? I think the less you use your airforce and navy the better... Air to air combat seems to be the other way around, you can kill and enemy fighter very easily and not even lose 1 str point. so yea, it could use some work. Got to agree with you on 1941 scenario also.. especially in the south, I am supposed to get to stalingrad with 4 infantry divisions and some bombers with 3 str, where is my 4.5 million man army and my massive armor divisions that everyone thinks of when they hear barbarrossa?



Texashorns -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/19/2010 12:56:16 PM)

I keep all my bombers at (srat and tac) at around 6 or 7 strength. There is a post on the forum recently that discusses the strat bomber losses for the pp loss for the cities. Although a city loses only 4 pp during the bombing, they only regain 1 pp per turn. So the total pp loss is actually larger than just 4. If you have 2 or 3 strat bombers going you can inflict heavy pp damage over the long haul. When repairing your bombers don't repair to full strength, you'll still come out ahead. Besides how many times have you lost 50 pp for being over 500? Spend those puppies to repair your bombers instead of losing them to waste.



Maximeba -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/19/2010 5:44:57 PM)

quote:

I have seen your many posts and you seem just as hooked as I. If you like to try ETO, with your oponent only or as a member of a larger team at HQ, just let me know.

(in reply to Maxime

Oppps! I just noticed that you have a new scenario called ETO Blitz. I assuming this is the game you are talking about since it not available for download. Sure I would like to get your scenario and play against Dave and against your group.
Do you need an e-mail address?



von altair -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/19/2010 7:40:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: billyjj
Got to agree with you on 1941 scenario also.. especially in the south, I am supposed to get to stalingrad with 4 infantry divisions and some bombers with 3 str, where is my 4.5 million man army and my massive armor divisions that everyone thinks of when they hear barbarrossa?


This is just what bothers me. The Germany is not what it should be at this point. In real they had replaced fully armed
armies, stockpiled supply depots, the best doctrines the world has seen ready for Barbarossa. In this scenario
they only have few slaughtered units and even more slaughtered airunits + 200~PP. Those PP points could
be sinked to just one or two air units, and still the german warmachine is without pants and bullets. I really hope they
rework this scenario. I would gladly see less units, but those which are placed in the field should be at full
str. Atleast in the eastern front at this time. Since this game is turn based and it takes full turn to replace a unit, having
German units already depleted at the start of main offensive Barbarossa, is...*****it. There is no such thing as
BLITZKRIEG in this scenario at all. Players feeling about the war is lost and if that is lost, everything is lost.

If the point is to let a player form his own invasion force and replace the german army like he wants. Scenario should start
few days BEFORE 22. June and have a decent PP pool to allow it happen. If these things unbalances scenario and makes
German too strong, there should be easy way to give more power to Russia at -42/-43 too. That way scenario would
be a lot better.

- Airunits, especially bombers are taking way too much damage, compared to repairing costs/damage they do
- Weather impacts too much atm. Even at the middle of summer, there are rain everywhere alldaylong.




von altair -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/19/2010 7:54:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Texashorns

I keep all my bombers at (srat and tac) at around 6 or 7 strength. There is a post on the forum recently that discusses the strat bomber losses for the pp loss for the cities. Although a city loses only 4 pp during the bombing, they only regain 1 pp per turn. So the total pp loss is actually larger than just 4. If you have 2 or 3 strat bombers going you can inflict heavy pp damage over the long haul. When repairing your bombers don't repair to full strength, you'll still come out ahead. Besides how many times have you lost 50 pp for being over 500? Spend those puppies to repair your bombers instead of losing them to waste.


I have to disagree with you about that repairing bombers thing. As we all know, repairing a unit takes a full turn and that is time its out of its work.
Repairing just few power points / turn is waste of time. I really wonder why nobody ever make a strategic game more intelligent repair system.
Should be easy to make a system where you can move with a unit and repair it too. There are many ways to stabilize/balance such system. Like
tech rate which allows tight amount of repairs/front/railroad. Allowing only repair OR action/turn is not what belongs to strategy. Having 10 more
PZ-III coming to a Panzer division, should not take it out of action whole month, its all about how fast they can come (railroad capacity, tech etc).
Offcourse I can understand, that it is easier to go over where the wall is lowest, that is however NOT the best way to make the best game.



billyjj -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/20/2010 1:16:59 AM)

Well lets see,, lets say I do 4 damage and lose 1 str on a bomber, by the way the higher level your bombers are the more they cost to repair... but lets just call it 20 pp. I am out 20pp and the enemy is out 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10. as you can see there is no need to calculate or discuss any further. So for the next 4 turns lets say i lost 2 more str and hit a few more cities for 4 points. at that point I am out 60pp and the enemy if I am lucky is out the original 10 + (4 * 4) = 34. I am getting deeper and deeper in the hole the more I bomb. Now I am having an effect on the enemy there is no doubt about that, he is feeling the pain, but i am feeling it more. Those 60 pp might be better off spent elsewhere, especially since a strategic bombing campaign will last for pretty much the whole war. Imagine how much PP I will be squandering after an entire year.



Maximeba -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/20/2010 3:24:52 AM)

quote:

Well lets see,, lets say I do 4 damage and lose 1 str on a bomber, by the way the higher level your bombers are the more they cost to repair... but lets just call it 20 pp. I am out 20pp and the enemy is out 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10
I'm sorry, but I think your math is wrong. Let's do this with some numbers from a game I am playing now. The British have a level two strat. bomber, the cost to repair one hit point is 15pp's. The German modifier for getting pp's is now at a 160%. I now put four hits on Dusseldorf, the loss to the Germans for the four turns are 6.4+4.8+3.2+1.6=16 pp's vs. a 15 pp's loss to the British. Now, you also have to remember your calculations are based on one strat. bomber being lost each time. I don't believe that is a correct assumption. I lose 1 point of bomber less than 50% of the time. In the game I'm playing now I have 5 US and 3 British strat bombers and I bomb constantly Hamburg, Hannover, Hamm, the Ruhr cities and factories and as far south as Dusseldorf and Koln. No city has more than 2 pp's left and most are at 0. The total point loss to the German player is 66 pp's before the modifier; with the modifier the loss is 105.6 pp's. By the way I always try and bomb German cities before conquered cities. The German cities are worth more points that conquered ones.
Also remember the Ally bombers took it really tough until the P51 mustang came into play. I believe the average life of a bomber crew before the P51 was 5 missions. The men who flew those planes were a very special breed of men, knowing the life expectancy was 5 missions. The US government offered bomber crews retirement after they flew their 25th mission. Few crews ever retired.



billyjj -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/20/2010 5:04:55 AM)

Thanks for clearing that up I guess I feel a little bit better now about my bombers lol... It still stings pretty hard to lose them after only a few bombing runs.



billyjj -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/20/2010 5:16:00 AM)

http://img183.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42215_br3_122_153lo.JPG

Army in full retreat in the south....

http://img191.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42231_br1_122_577lo.JPG

Army up North also in full retreat...

http://img23.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42246_br2_122_358lo.JPG

Disaster at Minsk...

33 turns and many hours, and looks like barbarossa is dead in its tracks. is this pretty much what you guys are getting or do i just fail at this game.

btw who needs stalingrad when you got Brest, its been surrounded and sieged for over 25 turns and it still has a 10str tank sitting in it

http://img269.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=43275_brest_122_594lo.JPG



htuna -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/20/2010 3:10:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maximeba

quote:

Well lets see,, lets say I do 4 damage and lose 1 str on a bomber, by the way the higher level your bombers are the more they cost to repair... but lets just call it 20 pp. I am out 20pp and the enemy is out 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10
I'm sorry, but I think your math is wrong. Let's do this with some numbers from a game I am playing now. The British have a level two strat. bomber, the cost to repair one hit point is 15pp's. The German modifier for getting pp's is now at a 160%. I now put four hits on Dusseldorf, the loss to the Germans for the four turns are 6.4+4.8+3.2+1.6=16 pp's vs. a 15 pp's loss to the British. Now, you also have to remember your calculations are based on one strat. bomber being lost each time. I don't believe that is a correct assumption. I lose 1 point of bomber less than 50% of the time. In the game I'm playing now I have 5 US and 3 British strat bombers and I bomb constantly Hamburg, Hannover, Hamm, the Ruhr cities and factories and as far south as Dusseldorf and Koln. No city has more than 2 pp's left and most are at 0. The total point loss to the German player is 66 pp's before the modifier; with the modifier the loss is 105.6 pp's. By the way I always try and bomb German cities before conquered cities. The German cities are worth more points that conquered ones.
Also remember the Ally bombers took it really tough until the P51 mustang came into play. I believe the average life of a bomber crew before the P51 was 5 missions. The men who flew those planes were a very special breed of men, knowing the life expectancy was 5 missions. The US government offered bomber crews retirement after they flew their 25th mission. Few crews ever retired.


I have yet to use/buy strategic bombers.. so I guess I should give it a try. .maybe prevent the Russian Horde from creating Tank Corps!



Maximeba -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/21/2010 8:12:50 PM)

quote:

I have yet to use/buy strategic bombers.. so I guess I should give it a try. .maybe prevent the Russian Horde from creating Tank Corps

I don't know if this quote is going to be in the box or not. I can never seem to get them in the quote box. I guess I'm just an idiot when it comes to computers. Anyhow I just wanted to say I'm not sure using strat. bombers in Russia would work well. It works fine for the British and US, as there are so many juicy German cities with high pp value so close to England.
In my previous game I was able to crush the Germans without ever landing a British or American unit in Europe. I let the British and Americans handle the air war and the Russians handle the ground war. Of course I had to lend thousands of pps to Russia. The lending of pps to Russia created an intense naval engagement between the Germans and the allies, which lasted for several months. Many good merchant ships are sitting at the bottom of the ocean.



Uxbridge -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/21/2010 9:47:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maximeba

quote:

I have seen your many posts and you seem just as hooked as I. If you like to try ETO, with your oponent only or as a member of a larger team at HQ, just let me know.

(in reply to Maxime

Oppps! I just noticed that you have a new scenario called ETO Blitz. I assuming this is the game you are talking about since it not available for download. Sure I would like to get your scenario and play against Dave and against your group.
Do you need an e-mail address?



Sorry, I missed this for some days. Yes, I need an e-mail adress. Send that through the personal messages and I will mail you the scenario to have a look at. If you want to join us at HQ, give me your first name and preference for a password as well. [:)]



billyjj -> RE: Play balance/Could use some advice (2/21/2010 10:18:47 PM)

I am starting to think maybe the problem in the 1941 scenario is my obsession with armor divisions. Maybe I should focus more on infantry and creating lines that way I dont constantly get overrun. I think it needs some changes but maybe I should play it a little more before passing judgement, my German army is spread so thin after the first few months maybe I just dont have the units to hold ground because I am spending all my PP trying on armor.. Just a thought.



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