Japanese AI Strategy (Full Version)

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Mundy -> Japanese AI Strategy (2/16/2010 5:13:59 PM)

Sometime back in January, I finally kicked off a WITP campaign as the Allies. After a hectic first turn, I finally made it into July, '42. Thank goodness for WPO easing me in...

Now I know that the AI will never be considered "bright", but I've had my butt handed to me a lot since the UV days.

As of July 1942, Soerabaja and Manila are both under siege. Both are still at fort 8. All Dutch forces on the island have retreated to Soerabaja and they barely have enough supply to get by. Manila ran dry long ago, but most of the Luzon forces are there, as I intended to turn it into Stalingrad rather than move to Bataan. All Japanese attacks on both tend to result in 5-1 or over 10-1 losses on the Japanese side.

I've built up lots of refugees from the SRA and some of the outlying islands of the Philippines in Darwin. As a result, I've been able to get Port Moresby built up, as well as Guadalcanal. I am now mopping up Iwo Jima and the Bonins, whose bases I've just seized. Wake held the initial attack on Dec 7 and they haven't returned. It's now an armed camp along with Marcus.

My question is how often does the campaign of the Japanese AI stall? Its failure in the Philippines and the SRA seems to have upset any schedule of conquest it may have had. I have just located KB at anchor in Hong Kong by accident after a port raid by Chinese medium bombers I decided to try. [8D]

Probably the only thing holding me back is needing enough base forces to make an offensive worthwhile.

M-



BPRE -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/16/2010 6:00:45 PM)

I would say that it's more or less stalling along the historical lines in 1942 if you play a fairly historical campaign yourself as human.
It will be doing a lot of stupid things also sooner or later so don't be too nasty against it.

The worst problem if you play against it several times is of course that eventually you will learn it quite well and know what to anticipate.

AE has an AI that's a lot better and apparently (I don't have enough experience yet) can be varyuing itself more also.

Even so I still enjoy the game (WitP) after years of playing it. I'm a slow player and can't spend all my free time playing so every game last a very long time.

/BPRE



Mundy -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/16/2010 6:26:07 PM)

Yeah, I'm priming myself up for AE.  Dealing with each TF's search arcs is making me cringe a bit.  I'm tempted to set them all at random.

With my current game, I never really did anything tricksy, aside from consolidating the forces on the two islands.  The defenders in Manila Are slowly dying off.  I rescued via sub the 106 USAAF base force which consisted of 14 support troops.  I figure every failed attack is providing another day's food for the defenders. [X(]

Knowing that KB is in HK is letting me cover my Iwo campaign with two CVs.  The other three are at Noumea.  My only sticking point here is deciding where to hit next in the Solomons.  I'm thinking Shortlands.  I know it hasn't really been built up.

The IJN has a goodly sized air force at Rabaul, but the P-40s at PM have shredded them pretty good.  I even parked my three CVs near Rabaul for a while and gave them the good news.  Caught Fuso at dock and beat her up good.  IJN air is afraid to try anything now.

M-



Alfred -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/17/2010 3:27:29 AM)

Mundy,

Japanese AI will tend to go for historical targets...and continue to do so until they have been secured.  Hence in your situation, you will have largely a free hand elsewhere until both Soerabaja and Manila have been captured.

It is in fact not uncommon to see a human player indefinitely hold Singapore (and Manila simultaneously) if he can get supply in and retreat in an orderly undefeated manner LCUs to the festung.

The main problem for the AI is that it is not particularly good at picking second phase objectives after it secures the SRA.  Many a human player finds the KB just wondering around aimlessly and out of fuel.

Alfred



Gaius Duilius -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/18/2010 6:30:40 PM)

I couldn't help but notice this thread.
If the AI is often following historical targets, then I must have got one of the rare times in which it doesn't. The one I'm currently playing it's my very first game as Allied commander, and I was quite surprised to see the AI making a major offensive in Burma and not stopping there. He hammered me at Akyab until I had to withdraw my troops; I half expected him to take out his troops to other fronts, but he is keeping there at least 80'000 men, a little too much for my lads to stop if they advance into India. He's also got a lot of aircraft in Rangoon, at least 200 between fighters and bombers, and so if I tried to stop them when they were bombing my base I had to withdraw an air group after two or three turns. They were simply getting swept off the sky. I even tried to keep two Hurricanes squadrons at the same time, but this only slowed them.



Alfred -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/19/2010 12:57:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaius Duilius

I couldn't help but notice this thread.
If the AI is often following historical targets, then I must have got one of the rare times in which it doesn't. The one I'm currently playing it's my very first game as Allied commander, and I was quite surprised to see the AI making a major offensive in Burma and not stopping there. He hammered me at Akyab until I had to withdraw my troops; I half expected him to take out his troops to other fronts, but he is keeping there at least 80'000 men, a little too much for my lads to stop if they advance into India. He's also got a lot of aircraft in Rangoon, at least 200 between fighters and bombers, and so if I tried to stop them when they were bombing my base I had to withdraw an air group after two or three turns. They were simply getting swept off the sky. I even tried to keep two Hurricanes squadrons at the same time, but this only slowed them.


What exactly is unhistorical about this. The Japanese did move significant forces into Burma (their 15th Army) and invaded India at Imphal/Kohima.

Alfred



gladiatt -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/19/2010 8:38:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaius Duilius

I couldn't help but notice this thread.
If the AI is often following historical targets, then I must have got one of the rare times in which it doesn't. The one I'm currently playing it's my very first game as Allied commander, and I was quite surprised to see the AI making a major offensive in Burma and not stopping there. He hammered me at Akyab until I had to withdraw my troops; I half expected him to take out his troops to other fronts, but he is keeping there at least 80'000 men, a little too much for my lads to stop if they advance into India. He's also got a lot of aircraft in Rangoon, at least 200 between fighters and bombers, and so if I tried to stop them when they were bombing my base I had to withdraw an air group after two or three turns. They were simply getting swept off the sky. I even tried to keep two Hurricanes squadrons at the same time, but this only slowed them.


What exactly is unhistorical about this. The Japanese did move significant forces into Burma (their 15th Army) and invaded India at Imphal/Kohima.

Alfred



Alfred is right here, about RL History, and about AI Script. It did the same to me when i made my GC against AI.



Mundy -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/19/2010 12:53:29 PM)

Being, a n00b, I made the mistake of drawing a line in the sand at Rangoon.  All the recently arrived Betties made it impossible for me to supply it.  I lost all the troops from that area, along with most of the SE Asia HQ. While the seige was on, the Japanese would try to run supplies with a single AK, which the torpedo boats would pounce on.  That happened about three times before Rangoon fell.

I've set myself back up along the Diamond Harbor/Imphal line and don't see anything imminent coming, so we'll see.  I was able to evacuate lots of Singapore/Malaysia based aircraft to Ceylon.  The AVG had to go there too, since they also got roughed over rather badly.

I don't know how to safely use the Brits to get an offensive going in that area.  I'm sending lots of excess aircraft and base forces on a roundabout path to Darwin.  Since the Japanese are still hung up with the Dutch, I'm planning on beefing up Timor.  KB's still sitting in Hong Kong, as far as I know.  A Chinese bomber (SB-2? - from memory) put one through the deck of Shokaku, causing an ammo explosion.  I only found them via a spur of the moment port raid.  Ryujo went down early to the rickety Dutch torpedo bombers while it was making its cruise through the DEI.

The funny part is that many of my best pilots right now are with one of the Chinese I-16 squadrons.  They've been doing a number on the Sonia/Nate raids there.  I'm still in love with my evacuated Dutch B-10s.  They've gotten some good experience at Port Moresby and still have a useful range.  Come July, I'll reluctantly convert them to B-25s.

The Fuso, which I beat up at Rabaul with the CV raid, decided to relocate to Saipan.  Doesn't make much sense.

M-



Mundy -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/19/2010 1:01:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
It is in fact not uncommon to see a human player indefinitely hold Singapore (and Manila simultaneously) if he can get supply in and retreat in an orderly undefeated manner LCUs to the festung.

The main problem for the AI is that it is not particularly good at picking second phase objectives after it secures the SRA.  Many a human player finds the KB just wondering around aimlessly and out of fuel.

Alfred


The thing is, with regard to Manila, that they've been at 0 supply for at least two months. I can't look right now, but I didn't think Manila is cranking out supplies. Maybe they're being generated and instantly consumed, but I didn't think so. I've pretty much ignored this fight throughout the game. Every Japanese attack gives me a loss ratio from 2-1 to 10-1 in my favor.

M-



Gaius Duilius -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/19/2010 4:27:16 PM)

I realize it's historical the Japanese conquest of Burma, but I doubt they put so many troops there. India was dreamed by the Army's generals as the greatest conquest feasible, but it was never undertook seriously, because even the hotshots had to admit they couldn't spare the lots of troops, artillery and tanks needed to take it. Of course, I recognize that in WitP it's another question, and lot of players tried it, some of them succesfully, but I still think it's a bit strange coming from the AI... [&:]



ChickenOfTheSea -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/22/2010 4:41:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
It is in fact not uncommon to see a human player indefinitely hold Singapore (and Manila simultaneously) if he can get supply in and retreat in an orderly undefeated manner LCUs to the festung.

The main problem for the AI is that it is not particularly good at picking second phase objectives after it secures the SRA.  Many a human player finds the KB just wondering around aimlessly and out of fuel.

Alfred


The thing is, with regard to Manila, that they've been at 0 supply for at least two months. I can't look right now, but I didn't think Manila is cranking out supplies. Maybe they're being generated and instantly consumed, but I didn't think so. I've pretty much ignored this fight throughout the game. Every Japanese attack gives me a loss ratio from 2-1 to 10-1 in my favor.

M-



Mundy,
A base stops creating supplies when enemy forces are in the hex, a good thing to keep in mind for when you go over to the offensive. If you can sneak in some supplies by sub it will help a little.

There are some interesting AI variants that some people have seen including the invasion of Ceylon. I don't think you will see any of these, however, until the initial objectives are taken.

Enjoy the game!



Mundy -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (2/22/2010 6:05:33 PM)

Oh I'm enjoying it.  [:)]  I've discovered what I've been missing when I first bought it upon first release.

My intro is eased a bit by the Japanese stumbling thus far.  Iwo is ready for 4E bombers, and B-17 have made their first raid on Tokyo -- all in mid-July of 1942.  I kept them at max altitude, not knowing what the defenses were and landed one heavy industry hit.  No fighters came up, so I'll knock them down to 20,000 ft next time.

I've been playing with the para-Marines at Fortress Lunga.  I did a drop on Shortlands and drove the single base force off of the base.  A day later, my APDs whisked them away to safety.  I think I can do a full scale invasion once the Americal Div gets trained up.  The paras are going back to Noumea, since I've run them pretty hard.

I'm about ready to set up in Timor.  With the amount of Netties in the DEI, it will get ugly...

M-



Balou -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (3/6/2010 10:48:13 AM)

BPRE,

quote:

AE has an AI that's a lot better and apparently (I don't have enough experience yet) can be varyuing itself more also.


Many posts have stated that the majority of WitP games are done against the AI. Since the AI in WitP/AE is supposed to be more challenging, I would like to know why people are still hanging to WitP ? I gave up playing WitP against the AI, since it was way to predictable after mid-42, whether side I was playing. So what's the deal with WitP ? Are there still that many bugs or nasty surprises with AE ? I like to ask the truly experienced gamer: what are the major differences between Jap AI in WitP and WitP/AE ?
Btw, couldn't afford the time for a PBEM game so far.



BPRE -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (6/8/2010 11:44:47 PM)

Apologies for a very late answer.

I haven't been frequenting either forum lately, too busy with work and playing.

As for bugs with AE I would say that there are no more than there still is in WitP which in my experience means hardly any (haven't checked the AE forum for a while either so I don't know what others might have found). I play both but my main reason is that I'm trying to build some help programs on the side which I started with for WitP and I still find it amusing to continue and test them on WitP.

Play wise AE is a lot better but it takes more time and requires a bit more micro management. Timewise I can't spend too much time on either game so I might not be the best guy to answer your question though.

/BPRE



jomni -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (9/6/2010 2:08:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Balou

BPRE,

quote:

AE has an AI that's a lot better and apparently (I don't have enough experience yet) can be varyuing itself more also.


Many posts have stated that the majority of WitP games are done against the AI. Since the AI in WitP/AE is supposed to be more challenging, I would like to know why people are still hanging to WitP ? I gave up playing WitP against the AI, since it was way to predictable after mid-42, whether side I was playing. So what's the deal with WitP ? Are there still that many bugs or nasty surprises with AE ? I like to ask the truly experienced gamer: what are the major differences between Jap AI in WitP and WitP/AE ?
Btw, couldn't afford the time for a PBEM game so far.


My speculation: AE is better because the front is unified and the devs scripted several (sneaky) plans for the Japanese to choose and enact. Stock WITP has a limited number of plans and has "several AI's" since you can delegate AI control to certain theaters which makes them less coordinated.

But I have yet to play a game of WITP and WITP AE until endgame. I stalled in my AE campaign because the level of detail is too much. I'm thinking of going back to WITP and take things easy. I think the detail in AE is overkill which results in many pointless debates on this little details (my opinion only). I'm currently playing a campaign in UV.



rtrapasso -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (9/6/2010 2:34:09 AM)

The developers of AE put a lot more into the AI...

i've only played with AE a bit, but it seems like there are more problems with the game - a whole new layer of complexity with a whole new layer of bugs that still need to be ironed out.

So far what i've seen is that CHS approaches "reality" more than AE does (as far as it being closer to a simulation rather than a game, and i prefer the simulation approach)... however, it took many years for WITP to get to the point where the CHS mod was developed, and i hope AE will eventually go that route. AE was specifically developed as a game, not a simulation.

i am not playing WITP-CHS against the AI (just PBEM).



jomni -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (9/6/2010 9:28:41 AM)

Where to grab CHS?



Alfred -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (9/6/2010 4:00:34 PM)

Go to stickied "links site" and then visit Spooly's site (linked from the first post). I think Andrew Brown's site ( access from another post on the same sticky) also had the CHS files.

Alfred



rtrapasso -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (9/6/2010 6:01:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Where to grab CHS?

http://mathubert.free.fr/ - look on the left side for the link to CHS.



Mobeer -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (9/6/2010 11:36:42 PM)

quote:


Many posts have stated that the majority of WitP games are done against the AI. Since the AI in WitP/AE is supposed to be more challenging, I would like to know why people are still hanging to WitP ? I gave up playing WitP against the AI, since it was way to predictable after mid-42, whether side I was playing. So what's the deal with WitP ? Are there still that many bugs or nasty surprises with AE ? I like to ask the truly experienced gamer: what are the major differences between Jap AI in WitP and WitP/AE ?
Btw, couldn't afford the time for a PBEM game so far.


I just finished an Allied vs. Japanese AI game that started 4 Jan 2009 and finished 31st August 2010. I couldn't image just abandoning such a long campaign. The Allies won by the way, as although the Japanese were happy to lose half of Japan, when they lost Singapore the Japanese felt obliged to surrender.

One more game on the go, started 9 Jan 2009 as the Japanese and still going, though I haven't played in a while. It's December 45 and things are getting dull.

By comparison, AE looks much more complicated and I'm not convinced by what I see of the AI.



jomni -> RE: Japanese AI Strategy (9/7/2010 2:34:28 AM)

Well for any of these games (Stock or AE)... PBEM is the way to get most satisfaction.



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