Mines revisited (Full Version)

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juliet7bravo -> Mines revisited (7/8/2002 6:48:27 PM)

Anyone had much luck with mines in v1.11? In my current game, as Allied, it's November. I've been mining the friendly shallow water hexes around Lunga/Tulagi/The Slot non-stop since my ML's arrived. To get to Lunga, the IJN has to go through 3 mined hexes, which I'd estimate have roughly 3-500 mines apiece in them. I've watched literally hundreds of ships, everything from barges to BB's sale right through them...they haven't hit a single mine.

Other than that, the new mine rules have reduced mines to a painful tedious process, especially for the USN. You have to refuel the ML's at Noumea, send them to Irau to refuel, send them out to lay mines in the Slot, back to Irau to refuel for the return leg, then back to Noumea to re-arm/re-fuel and repeat endlessly. It's doable, but a severe hassle and much micro-management...which might worthwhile if the darn things worked, even once.



zed -> (7/8/2002 7:51:10 PM)

I have had great luck as the IJN player and mines -if the hex is mined and the enemy sails through, chances are greater than 50% that some vessel will hit a mine. The IJN Minelayers can mine around Lunga and come back w/o refueling, which is wonderful. Talk about micromanangement, its the subs.



juliet7bravo -> (7/9/2002 12:09:51 AM)

Dunno what I'm doing wrong then. I can't get an IJN ship to hit a mine to save my life. I own Lunga, and I'm getting beat up by the Tokyo Express bomb TF's, and they're sailing right on through all 3 mine fields, and I've been mining those hexes in prep for this for months. I popped up the IJN side, and they haven't even spotted them. I was getting concerned because none of the AP/AK were hitting them, but BB's used to be "mine magnets"...they've run through about 6 times now total, no effect.



Rex Bellator -> I'm glad someone else has noticed this! (7/9/2002 2:23:32 AM)

Hi J7B - you're not going mad - I've posted on this topic in another thread in the bugs forum because I see (or rather don't see) this non event as well.

I'm playing Japanese, scenario 17, v1.11 and own Lunga. My idea was to stuff it full of CD guns and ring it with dense defensive minefields on every friendly beach hex (I've taken all adjacent hexes). I then simply defy the USN to come and get me while I attack into Australia with the IJN.

I have had my MLs working together in a mini TF of 3 vessels, and they've mined every approach square twice and Lunga itself three times, this adds up to hundreds of mines in each hex, and any approaching USN TF must pass through at least 2 hexes full of them before reaching Lunga base.

However, I have now lost count of the number of USN bombardment TFs that have blithely sailed through all of them without an incident (guess 10 at least), I'm convinced that there is a bug here. To make matters worse my CD guns have stopped firing back as well but that's another story.

I don't think mines are totally broke as I have seen them hit ships occasionally, but I wonder if they stop working after a short period? My guess is the game is treating defensive minefields in the same way as offensive minefields, and giving them a 'use by' date as well. Or are there are certain locations on the map where they have no effect at all?

I don't think Matrix are aware of this yet, hopefully someone in the know will pick it up soon.



Toro -> (7/9/2002 2:35:01 AM)

I've had fairly good success with mines as the Allied player. I've mined ports as well as shallow areas. Sure, most task forces move through the minefields without hits (remember, you've only placed 40 mines - per trip, that is - in a 30 sq mile hex. Lots of open water there.

Still, I've damaged lots of ships, including (just last night) the Yamato -- actually forced the ship back to port (I suspect it was going to bombard PM). I've also seen a couple hits on cruisers and several APs.

I find mines well worth sending layers out. I even have a replentishment TF set-up just for them.

Keep trying! They do work, just not so fast.



JohnK -> Why should the mines work? (7/9/2002 8:29:02 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by juliet7bravo
[B]Dunno what I'm doing wrong then. I can't get an IJN ship to hit a mine to save my life. I own Lunga, and I'm getting beat up by the Tokyo Express bomb TF's, and they're sailing right on through all 3 mine fields, and I've been mining those hexes in prep for this for months. [/B][/QUOTE]

As noted, the hexes are 30 miles across, or, VERY approximately, 900 square miles. If you've laid 300 mines in a hex, that's one mine for every 3 square miles.

And MOST importantly, MOST OF THE LUNGA hex is TOO DEEP for mines, in reality.

No Tokyo Express bombardment mission ever hit a mine at Guadalcanal. You don't need to be that close to Henderson to shell it; in reality, if it were possible to close off the Northwestern entrances to Ironbottom Sound (the channels N and S of Savo Island, between Guadalcanal and Florida Island) assuredly the Allies would have attempted it; they never tried.

What they DID mine was the immediate coast of Guadalcanal, to attempt to sink Japanese Tokyo Express supply and troop transport forces. They managed to bag 1 destroyer.

If it were possible to lay mines so that Tokyo Express bombardment forces regularly hit mines in Lunga, that would be a horrible PROBLEM for the game. Those channels were over 1000 feet deep and they never had to come into shallow water to shell Henderson.



strollen -> (7/9/2002 8:52:30 AM)

I have had 2 out of 3 PBEM (one US one IJN) hit mines in and around Lunga. The 3rd sunk the the IJN MLs (ouch) These were single loads so 80 mines by the US and 600 by the Japanese. I've had similar experience with the AI. Not every TF hits the minefield (actually I think once they hit they don't seem to hit it again) but I've had at least 10 enemy ships in the various games I've played hit mines.

The Japanese ML have plenty of endurance so set home base as Truk and set destination no need to reful. I found that putting an American DD (with decent endurance) in a TF with 2 DM gives them plenty of endurance to mine either Gili, or Lunga from Noumea.

They aren't super weapons, and couple of mine sweeper can certainly clear a path through them quickly. In fact, I generally include a DMS in a bombard TF. (They have good ASW and Flak).
I also think you should include MSW in invasion fleets.



Ron Saueracker -> Too much success (7/9/2002 9:27:40 AM)

As Allied, I believe I've had too much success with mines in 1.11. The Argonaut only carries 15 Mk12s (even though she had no capability to lay mines by mid 1942 as they converted her into a transport sub), but this amount has been more than enough (15 per 30 mile hex) to sink more than a half dozen minor ships and subs, plus at least 12 barges (they are barge killers). Considering the amount per hex, this is just a little too fortunate.

I've yet to have success with defensive minefields, however. Nada, even though there must be 250 mines/hex. For some reason, not one hit in Port Moresby hex.

I like it though. It's still a bit much, but that is vs. the AI. I think any success in PBEM will be much more difficult to achieve.



wpurdom -> (7/9/2002 10:01:09 AM)

Can anyone tell me whether US DM's are supposed to lay mines. If so, I haven't figure out how to lay them in version 1.11 after replenishing in Noumea. If not, what are they for anyway?



tanjman -> USN DM's (7/9/2002 10:41:12 AM)

wpurdom,

;) If they are Dorsey class DM's then they are destroyer mine sweepers. I use them as escorts (1 or 2 per) for my amphibious TF's. The only USN mine layers in the game are the Gamble class. They carry 40 (since there are two launching rails maybe its 40 each) Mk 16 mines.



Inbound -> (7/9/2002 6:16:56 PM)

Talking about mines, the following happened to me:
I'm currently playing 1.11, Scen#19 as US. In the starting days of the campaign, I laid an offensive minefield in Lunga, to hamper Japanese base building as much as possible.

Now I am finally in a position to bring my Marines to Lunga. After a few weeks of prep bombardements I send my transports in, supported by a CVTF which provides LRCAP.

My transports enter the Lunga hex, FOUR of them are struck by mines:eek:

Ok, they were not accompanied by a MSW or DM, my fault. I immediately order two DM'S to Lunga. They "clear a path through the minefield", but no red dot for a Jap minefield appears.

Does that mean, that FOUR out of six AP'S were struck by my own minefield?

If the answer is yes, should I avoid laying minefields in hexes i might want to invade later in the game?



Admiral DadMan -> (7/9/2002 10:46:03 PM)

Scen. 17, Human Allied, AI Japan, 1.11 patch.

I took Rabaul late Mar43 and mined both shallow approach hexes (NE and SW) to the base. Got hit by 2 IJN TFs that never hit the mines, but sure as heck, my OWN units hit MY defensive minefields laid AFTER I took the port! To date, 1 BB, 2 CA, 5 DDs, 2 APs, and 2 APDs have struck my own minefields. I then proceeded to sweep those hexes, and was promptly attacked by IJN subs. Scratch 3 MSW types...

I think it might have something to do with the Rabaul/Luganville possession bug...



Beckles -> (7/9/2002 10:48:34 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
[B]I took Rabaul late Mar43 and mined both shallow approach hexes (NE and SW) to the base. Got hit by 2 IJN TFs that never hit the mines, but sure as heck, my OWN units hit MY defensive minefields laid AFTER I took the port! To date, 1 BB, 2 CA, 5 DDs, 2 APs, and 2 APDs have struck my own minefields. I then proceeded to sweep those hexes, and was promptly attacked by IJN subs. Scratch 3 MSW types...[/B][/QUOTE]

Those are not defensive minefields unless there is a friendly base/port/beach in the hex. Those were offensive minefields (as evidenced by the fact you were even able to sweep them).



Admiral DadMan -> (7/9/2002 11:00:59 PM)

Well grrrr



thantis -> (7/9/2002 11:19:59 PM)

How does one successfully clear minefields? I've had my DMS & MSW in Rabaul's hex day after day after day, and cleared one lane, but subsequent (and abortive) invasion attempts were miserable failures with my ships hitting mine after mine.

What's the proper mix of ships to clear minefields in the shortest amount of time????????????:confused:



Admiral DadMan -> (7/9/2002 11:25:28 PM)

There are four things that I would look at:
[list=1]
  • Retirement option set to "Patrol/Do Not Retire"
  • Fuel Status
  • Ops points used
  • Commander's Aggresiveness Rating
    [/list=1]There might be something that I'm missing, but I can't think of it.



    • mogami -> Interesting (7/9/2002 11:32:01 PM)

    Hi, Same game same version. Yet both sides in PBEM game have mines that enemy ships hit. (I just realized how extensive my worthy opponents minelaying efforts have been. Oct 1942 and every hex to the east of Lunga is mined (I know because one of my ships have hit at least one mine in every shallow hex east of Lunga. When they find a hex is mined they plot around it and the next hex little alarm bells and explosions as another made in Japan mine performs it's designed function against the hull of one of my poor mine "Sweeper" ships (not minesweepers unless their
    "finding" the mine reduced the number in the hex by however many just went BOOM. (one of my mines was discovered by a Japanese BB soI feel better......blah I'm loading up those DM's that have been rusting away in port....gotta play catch up.



    thantis -> (7/10/2002 1:28:11 AM)

    Can AG's hit mines? I have mined Rabaul (after reducing the airfield to rubble - only 3 fighters & 2 bombers left sitting next to a cratered runway) till the cows came home, yet I have yet to see an AG hit a mine....

    On the other side, my subs have been mining Truk & have seen at least a dozen ships & subs take hits (including sinking a couple of destroyers).



    Admiral DadMan -> (7/10/2002 1:39:56 AM)

    [QUOTE]Can AG's hit mines?[/QUOTE]
    Yes, they can, and indeed they do (he he he)



    1089 -> (7/10/2002 11:57:49 AM)

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
    [B]There are four things that I would look at:
    [list=1]
  • Retirement option set to "Patrol/Do Not Retire"
  • Fuel Status
  • Ops points used
  • Commander's Aggresiveness Rating
    [/list=1]There might be something that I'm missing, but I can't think of it. [/B][/QUOTE]

    And you have to reset the destination to the same hex every turn for them to continue to widen the path. Otherwise, they just sit there and run out of fuel, as I'm sure they did historically, :) or is that hysterically?

    kp



    • thantis -> (7/10/2002 6:24:50 PM)

    So what you are saying is that you have to set the destination hex every turn, if not, they don't clear mines?

    Let me know, because I need to clear out Rabaul before I can invade....



    1089 -> (7/10/2002 9:36:52 PM)

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by thantis
    [B]So what you are saying is that you have to set the destination hex every turn, if not, they don't clear mines?

    Let me know, because I need to clear out Rabaul before I can invade.... [/B][/QUOTE]

    That is what I have observed. They will clear on first reaching the hex, and you will get no more reports of any clearing being done, unless you reset the destination. I used to go to the next hex over, and then come back, but I think you can just click on the same hex each turn. Now, perhaps they are clearing and just not saying so, but my comfort level is higher when they report it each turn.

    kp



    Rex Bellator -> Defensive Mines (7/14/2002 5:03:00 PM)

    After more hours of play there is no doubt that Offensive minefields are working, indeed they are deadly. But, Defensive minefields are causing no hits in either my PBEM games or my Single Player game.

    This needs investigating.



    strollen -> (7/14/2002 6:13:02 PM)

    Rex

    I think you are right the one instance I had of a ship hitting a defensive mine may have been because I place it offensively first.

    I.e. I mined Irau, than built a base a few days latter.
    A bombarding ship latter hit a mine in that hex but other than that all the mines I've seen being hit are offensive minefields. This despite a fair amount of mining defensively on my part and the a larger number of bombard TFs moving into mined hexes (mine and the enemies).



    wpurdom -> defensive mines (7/14/2002 7:57:16 PM)

    Having just figured out how to lay mines from this thread, I immediately laid down a barrage in the Green Hell scenario off of Tassafronga (the beach is owned by Japan in that scenario) and the Shokaku immediately hit a mine either the next turn or the turn after.



    juliet7bravo -> Re: Defensive Mines (7/14/2002 10:45:22 PM)

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Rex Bellator
    [B]After more hours of play there is no doubt that Offensive minefields are working, indeed they are deadly. But, Defensive minefields are causing no hits in either my PBEM games or my Single Player game.

    This needs investigating. [/B][/QUOTE]

    That's what I thought too.



    Ron Saueracker -> Really? (7/14/2002 11:36:31 PM)

    My DMSs were in an invasion TF and went into Gili Gili. The two DMS continually widened the path without having to reset destination every turn.



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