Defensive strategies! (Full Version)

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Webbco -> Defensive strategies! (2/28/2010 8:50:16 PM)

I've always found it somewhat challenging to defend my empire in these sorts of real-time 4X games, especially as it grows larger and grows in influence.

It may possibly be too early yet, but I thought I'd open this up to people's ideas and thoughts on the best way to defend their colonies, in particular outlying worlds. In an enormous galaxy full of pirates, monsters and other empires eager to gain control, surely we must share our knowledge to reach our common goal![sm=00000436.gif]



martok -> RE: Defensive strategies! (2/28/2010 9:48:47 PM)

When I play 4x games, I have a tendency to establish "nodal fleets" for defense.

In other words, I'll station a fleet -- or two, or three (depending on the situation) -- at centrally-located "hub" colonies, where they can then serve as a rapid-response force to any impending/ongoing incursions. I also try to have light forces covering the hubs' "satellite" colonies -- not so much as a true defense, but more to (hopefully) slow down attackers enough so that my nodal fleet(s) can then deal with the invaders when they arrive.

I'm hoping something like this will be possible/practical in Distant Worlds as well.




Erik Rutins -> RE: Defensive strategies! (2/28/2010 10:30:46 PM)

Local response fleets combined with decent orbital defenses for key locations and patroling local defense ships for more distant stations/bases is pretty much the defense I use and it seems to work well.



cdbeck -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 12:41:58 AM)

Escorts.... escorts... escorts...

Like Erik, you want to have some local defense fleets set with key planets are their "home." The helper AI does a fantastic job of sending ships that are unassigned, or assigned to escort duty, to respond in case of pirate attack on mining stations or mining ships. Squelching an empire's economy is serious, and can really hamper production and colony growth - so having a "home defense fleet" is going to be something many players will actively work toward.

SoM



christian199 -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 3:29:34 AM)

i should proably check out these other 4X games... is there one like distant worlds?? that has the system reqs as Distant worlds cause my computer sucks :(



martok -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 3:41:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Local response fleets combined with decent orbital defenses for key locations and patroling local defense ships for more distant stations/bases is pretty much the defense I use and it seems to work well.

Excellent! Just what I was hoping to hear. [8D]



quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

Escorts.... escorts... escorts...

Like Erik, you want to have some local defense fleets set with key planets are their "home." The helper AI does a fantastic job of sending ships that are unassigned, or assigned to escort duty, to respond in case of pirate attack on mining stations or mining ships. Squelching an empire's economy is serious, and can really hamper production and colony growth - so having a "home defense fleet" is going to be something many players will actively work toward.

SoM


Sorry, I guess I'm being thick again....

So can you, in fact, set it up so that the helper AI will automatically dispatch local defense fleets (or nodal fleets) to trouble spots for you? More specifically, will it do this for you in the event of a serious attack (i.e. invasion by another empire), or does the helper AI do this mostly just with (relatively) less severe attacks like you've outlined?



Okay, I've got a slew of other questions here as well (sorry, I'm just generally inquisitive!)....


What kind of defense/fleet organization & setup do you guys tend to have once you've reached the stage where you have a large (or at least large-ish) empire?

Do you tend to have several major fleet formations? A lot of smaller battle groups with a large central/home fleet? A combination thereof? Something else entirely?

Do capital ships mostly belong only in the larger fleets, or do they have a role in smaller formations as well?



Also: About how close/far away should nodal fleets be to the colonies/stations they're supposed to protect? In other words, how long does it take for them to be mobilized and actually reach the trouble spot they've been dispatched to? (I'm just trying to get an idea of how close/far apart I should station nodal/local defense fleets once I'm in a position where I should start doing so.)





Gertjan -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 7:36:07 AM)

Wow those are detailed questions :)



Wade1000 -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 9:18:08 AM)

Mobile defense is usually preferable. Stationary defenses are usually best to supplement mobile defenses. Also, the best defense is a good offense, on any scale.



ypsylon -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 8:54:07 PM)

Exactly. No defense, only offense.

Like a Glorious Red Army spread communism across galaxy. [:D]



elliotg -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 9:07:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: martok
So can you, in fact, set it up so that the helper AI will automatically dispatch local defense fleets (or nodal fleets) to trouble spots for you? More specifically, will it do this for you in the event of a serious attack (i.e. invasion by another empire), or does the helper AI do this mostly just with (relatively) less severe attacks like you've outlined?

If you leave your ships and/or fleets on "automatic" they will respond to attacks themselves. They'll also choose their own patrol and escort missions, defending your mining stations and civilian ships from attackers.

quote:


What kind of defense/fleet organization & setup do you guys tend to have once you've reached the stage where you have a large (or at least large-ish) empire?

This is pretty subjective and depends a lot on personal taste, but I often build lots of frigates (they're fast and reasonably well-armed) and automate them, letting them patrol on their own. Pirates can be pretty intense in the early game, so the more ships patrolling your mining stations, the better. In early game I build up one decent fleet, of mostly destroyers, some cruisers (if available) and some frigates, and use this fleet to take out pirates, once I discover their base.

quote:


Do you tend to have several major fleet formations? A lot of smaller battle groups with a large central/home fleet? A combination thereof? Something else entirely?

As your empire gets larger you will probably want multiple fleets. Maybe some smaller ones near your key colonies for defense. And possibly one or two big ones for attacking other empires, etc. But I'm sure everyone will have their own personal strategies [:)]

quote:


Do capital ships mostly belong only in the larger fleets, or do they have a role in smaller formations as well?

They work well when assaulting large bases like space ports or defensive bases. So they're probably more useful in attack fleets. But you can use them however you like... [:)]

quote:


Also: About how close/far away should nodal fleets be to the colonies/stations they're supposed to protect? In other words, how long does it take for them to be mobilized and actually reach the trouble spot they've been dispatched to? (I'm just trying to get an idea of how close/far apart I should station nodal/local defense fleets once I'm in a position where I should start doing so.)

Depends on the components in the ship design: the reactor(s), hyperdrive and engines will determine its speed. You'll really have to try this out for yourself. But it pays to have fleets spread at strategic locations throughout your empire. Knowing where enemy forces are is key of course, and that means relying on your long range scanners, scouting enemy systems, etc.



PDiFolco -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 10:08:34 PM)

Looks pretty good, I like particularly to be able to automatize patrols and manage big fleets in reserve !
Usually either you'be to mm everything or delegate to the AI then see it doing laughable ludicrous things without any consistency...



Gertjan -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/1/2010 10:26:52 PM)

How do the different ships compare to each other. For example how much more powerful is a typical cruiser vs a frigate and a destroyer? What other classes are there? Capital ships and battleships? Dreadnaughts etc?



Sarissofoi -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 5:03:18 AM)

[image]http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1649/shipsandbases.jpg[/image]
See yourself.

Wat concern me more. How space combat is done?
1)Does weapon have accuracy? And is it affected by ships computer(or other component) or target manevr(by ships engine or size)?
2)Is shoots can be miss or be deflected, absorbed, incoming missles can be jammed or shoot down?
3)If there will be diffrent family weapons? Like ballisctic(autocanons, railgans), beam(laser), missle or something?
4) If hits have chance give critical damage? Or is they can pierce thourg armor/shields if they lucky?




elliotg -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 5:27:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarissofoi
1)Does weapon have accuracy? And is it affected by ships computer(or other component) or target manevr(by ships engine or size)?

Yes, weapons accuracy is affected by both countermeasures components of the target and targetting component of the attacker. Other factors that affect accuracy include: speed of target (slower targets easier to hit), size of target (bigger targets easier to hit), distance to target (easier to hit when closer). So bases are pretty easy to hit (big and stationary), but small fast ships like escorts and frigates are harder to hit.

quote:


2)Is shoots can be miss or be deflected, absorbed, incoming missles can be jammed or shoot down?

Yes, shots can miss. Or if they hit they strike shields first. When shields have been lowered they then strike armor. Then when armor is penetrated they strike the ships components, disabling specific functionality. When all components have been damaged the ship is destroyed.

quote:


3)If there will be diffrent family weapons? Like ballisctic(autocanons, railgans), beam(laser), missle or something?

There are beam weapons (shorter-range laser blasts), torpedo weapons (long-range, homing, missile-like energy bolts) and area weapons (omni-directional blast waves)

quote:


4) If hits have chance give critical damage? Or is they can pierce thourg armor/shields if they lucky?

Yes, shields take time to lower, then armor is struck. Armor has a reactive rating - weapon damage below this value usually cannot penetrate the armor. This means that an attacker either needs more powerful weapons (more raw damage) or needs to close-in to deliver the full power of their weapons to punch through the armor. Weapons have more power when they are at close range. As they travel further, their damage level drops off.



Wade1000 -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 5:36:59 AM)

Thanks! Sounds excellent.

quote:

There are beam weapons (shorter-range laser blasts), torpedo weapons (long-range, homing, missile-like energy bolts) and area weapons (omni-directional blast waves)


1. Are there long range beam weapons also?
2. Torpedo weapons are a kind of advanced homing energy bolt? Cool. Are there typical, solid casing torpedos and missiles also?

3. Is there point defense against missiles, torpedos, and fighters? Oh, actually I think I read that there are currently no carriers or fighters in game.
4. Are there carriers an fighters? :)
5. "area weapons (omni-directional blast waves)":These sound cool. Do they serve as a point defense AND/OR a regular ship attack when many enemies are near?



Sarissofoi -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 5:59:44 AM)

Thx for answers.

AD3.
No balisstic weapons?
You know autocannons, mass drivers, railguns, guns shooting solid ammo not a energy.
This is something awesome in ballistic weapons. Any real cat must have real gun not some thing doing zap zap.
My opinion so yeah can be ignored.


and NO CARRIERS! NO FIGHTERS!



cdbeck -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 7:02:26 AM)

I'm not sure Carriers and Fighters would fit in with the overall scale of the universe, but that is my personal view. I never really cared for that sort of thing anyway, from a realism standpoint I was always skeptical that a spacefaring civilization would use this sort of tactic, and I always wondered just what sort of technology acted as an inertial stabilizer for fast ships to prevent them from skittering all over the place or shooting off into space.

Again, I don't want to keep hammering "scope" (sounds like a cheap way to get drunk) - but the limited types of weapons should be seen to represent more of a guns, long-range projectiles, AoE group than a smorgasbord of missiles, drones, guns, lasers, beamers, etc. It isn't like Sword of the Stars, where warships and intimate tactical battles are the main focus. You get huge numbers of ships in multiple fleets that simultaneously deploy across a large universe. Few people would want to be controlling fighters in the midst of all this (and while keeping an eye on you galaxy spanning economy).

That being said, you do get a pretty good amount of detail for each weapon component. Your next researched beam, for example, might be heavier and use more energy, but do more damage and have a greater range. The resources needed to build it might be different. So you might not always automatically upgrade as new weapons are researched. While the sheer number of weapon type options may be lower - the level of detail in the ship design doesn't necessarily suffer. Does that make sense?

SoM



Sarissofoi -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 7:13:59 AM)

Yeah but you dont give answer for question:
If they are ballistic weapons?
You know kinetic weapons are just better.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KineticWeaponsAreJustBetter


And about fighters. This wary.
In the battleship era using fighters dont have much sense(good for recon or fire control but not for real fight) but on the other hand when airplanes advandec and can give a serius damange to a ship tide change.

The problem is cost and efficency. Why built and risk costly battleship when cheap carrier with dozens fighters can make a job better. On the other hand if fighters dont have enough firepower to do thing ten you need battleships.
All is in constant move.
Mobile fast small weapon platforms versus big armored and slow big guns platforms.
I hope you get what I want to tell.




Wade1000 -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 7:28:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Son_of_Montfort

I'm not sure Carriers and Fighters would fit in with the overall scale of the universe, but that is my personal view. I never really cared for that sort of thing anyway, from a realism standpoint I was always skeptical that a spacefaring civilization would use this sort of tactic, and I always wondered just what sort of technology acted as an inertial stabilizer for fast ships to prevent them from skittering all over the place or shooting off into space.

Again, I don't want to keep hammering "scope" (sounds like a cheap way to get drunk) - but the limited types of weapons should be seen to represent more of a guns, long-range projectiles, AoE group than a smorgasbord of missiles, drones, guns, lasers, beamers, etc. It isn't like Sword of the Stars, where warships and intimate tactical battles are the main focus. You get huge numbers of ships in multiple fleets that simultaneously deploy across a large universe. Few people would want to be controlling fighters in the midst of all this (and while keeping an eye on you galaxy spanning economy).

That being said, you do get a pretty good amount of detail for each weapon component. Your next researched beam, for example, might be heavier and use more energy, but do more damage and have a greater range. The resources needed to build it might be different. So you might not always automatically upgrade as new weapons are researched. While the sheer number of weapon type options may be lower - the level of detail in the ship design doesn't necessarily suffer. Does that make sense?

SoM



Alright, Yeah, that all makes sense and answers questions. It brings things into perspective.
This, like many games of this type, has many abstractions.



Gertjan -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 10:51:07 AM)

Indeed don't make the game too much focused on details of ship combat. That's what I don't like about Sots and Galciv2.
@elliot: what are the maintenance costs of cruisers and capital ships as they don't shop up in the screenshot in this thread.
Could you also say something about the relative strength of the different types of ships?



ypsylon -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 2:54:20 PM)

Even if I prefer big gun over big carrier [:'(], I think that carriers are nice idea.

Every major sci-fi series used carriers and/or fighters.

Star Trek (fighters only DS9 during Dominion War but still)
Star Wars (where should we start...)
Babylon 5 (every major race used fighters from Earth Aliance to Vorlon Empire, ballistics used also by pretty much every faction - from missiles to mass drivers)
Stargate (there is so much carriers and fighters that just like in SW case I don't need to explain)
Space 2063 (both sides of Chig War used fighters extensively and Earth forces carriers used a lot of ballistic weaponry)



Webbco -> RE: Defensive strategies! (3/2/2010 4:04:01 PM)

Also, fighters and bombers can be useful when hunting smaller ships hidden in asteroid fields etc where cap ships cannot enter!



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