Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (Full Version)

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vimconfused -> Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/4/2010 11:29:51 AM)

I'm German player its 29 Dec 43.

Just had a mass fighter to fighter combat day and did OK in the air to air combat finishing the day with 48 lost. Except that 12 of these were shot down by my own flak (and 8 were destroyed on landing, but I can understand that).

So if you've got allied and German aircraft over the same flak zone its not surprising some of your aircraft could get shot down (OK, you might issue orders for them not to fire at all under those circumstances too!)

So if there's allied aircraft within the same zone, but not overhead you might get jumpy gunners shooting down your own aircraft I suppose.

But... I'm getting fired on by flak that has been nowhere near allied aircraft all day, shooting down aircraft returning to their airfields long after the allied planes have turned for home. I'm even seeing apparently the same flak fire at successive aircraft in stream without anyone saying, "hang on boys, do you think they might be ours?" And if the flak can't be trusted, then why do the fighters insist on returning to base by flying over the Ruhr?

And when I said that I can cope with aircraft being lost on landing, I'm now suspecting that a lot of these were probably damaged by my own flak first, hence why they crashed on landing... so maybe I'm not so comfortable with that also.

Basically random flak is killing far more of my aircraft than the enemy. Sure its getting a lot of kills when specific ground forces or radar sites are being attacked, but its the "random flak" that's killing me (literally). I don't usually use message level 3, but this is showing me that I'm getting vast damage from flak, even when it does not end up shooting my planes down (though perhaps contributes to their later crashes on landing). I have no doubt that German flak shot down a lot of German planes, but surely fewer than it is doing in this game? I'm seriously considering removing flak from the Ruhr because its doing far more damage to me than to the Allies!



Derfel -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/4/2010 1:52:05 PM)

If you want to engage Allied fighters in front of the Ruhr, then you will want bases in front of the Ruhr and in range of Allied Fighter Bombers.
If you have retreated fighters behind a Flak trap, then only engage when the enemy has passed the Flak, so you can return your planes safely.

Do not engage the enemy either over or near a massive FlaK concentration. Use your ability to set where you want the fight to be.

That said, a lot of fighters were shot down by their own troops, even over their own bases but I think, like you do, that this is a little too much.



bigmilt -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/4/2010 11:15:34 PM)

IN real life lots of 109's were lost on take off and landing due to the landing gear being very close together - this was caused by pilot fatigue and lot's of new pilots over controlling the aircraft.



vimconfused -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/5/2010 2:51:49 PM)

... plus they appear to be made of cardboard.

I wish there was a standard reminder you could issue 109G-6 pilots that when ordered to bounce fighters they should not be attacking undisrupted heavy bomber formations!

Anyway, a real question for which the answer is probably obvious, but how (if at all) do you move the Flak Bns? I don't mean the rail flak but the other units that don't seem to be part of the location's flak but also don't seem to be moveable.



Nicholas Bell -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/5/2010 9:03:04 PM)

quote:

Anyway, a real question for which the answer is probably obvious, but how (if at all) do you move the Flak Bns? I don't mean the rail flak but the other units that don't seem to be part of the location's flak but also don't seem to be moveable.


"Move AA Guns" See page 44 in the manual.



Tuk -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/5/2010 9:59:07 PM)


quote:



I wish there was a standard reminder you could issue 109G-6 pilots that when ordered to bounce fighters they should not be attacking undisrupted heavy bomber formations!


LOL [8D]



vimconfused -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/6/2010 12:36:30 AM)

No, sorry still don't get it.

Unless I'm reading it wrong the manual explains moving flak into and out of locations. What I can't work out is how to move the flak *units*. For example, you may find "993rd L/E Flak Bn" co-located at an airfield. You can select the airfield location and move flak in and out, but selecting the flak bn instead seems to do nothing. These are not rail flak, they are some other type of flak that I don't seem to be able to control... unless I'm missing something and if I am please let me know!



Hard Sarge -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/6/2010 12:30:24 PM)

still not sure I follow

992-993 and others are still RR flak units, if you want to move them, go to move RR flak, and move them ?

it sounds like the page you are on, is for adding flak to area, not to move the RR units ?



[image]local://upfiles/1438/3B08875BB46F4A14A6FE363F77DE2709.jpg[/image]



vimconfused -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/7/2010 12:08:51 AM)

Sorry, bad example. Yes the one I quoted was one of the rail flak units I can actually move. On the screen when I select rail flak there are 15 locations highlighted in blue. These I can select and move. However, when I look at the rail flak list there are approx 30 flak bns. When I select one (from the list) that is not highlighted in blue, the map jumps to the location as expected, but it is not highlighted and I can't do anything with it. An example in my game is 416th S/E flak bn which is (in my game anyway) in Berlin.



vimconfused -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/7/2010 3:03:44 AM)

... and back to my original point.

I just had a mad few minutes where over a single location I had four 109s shot down and 12 damaged BY MY OWN FLAK and not a single allied plane damaged.

ARE THEY ACTUALLY AIMING ONLY FOR MY AIRCRAFT!!!!!!!

This is seriously annoying me now. This is almost a great game but things like this are starting to get to me. Nobody disputes that you shouldn't get shot down by your own side from time to time but there has to be more control than this.



vimconfused -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/7/2010 12:06:44 PM)

This is the more objective analysis.

Turn 147, 10 Jan 44.
500+ heavy bomber raid on Schweinfurt (with vast amounts of escorts).
Due to the route taken, a large amount of action takes place over St Trond which is my most forward airfield, and a sort of salient in my defences. It has a lot of low level flak based there because its always getting bombed and strafed. Its not a flak trap, its simply defences against the constant attack. As a result, the airfield is in action for approx two hours continuously, and following the attack on my own 109s I thought I'd record what went on there.

Damaged:
Mustangs 7
Thunderbolts 12
Me410s 5
Fw190s 2
Bf109s 18

Shot down:
Me410s 1
Bf109s 6

This of course does not include aircraft that subsequently crashed as a result of damage received over St Trond, of which I suspect a few did. So its not just a question of firing on your own aircraft, which I can accept to a certain extent but not on this scale, but also the continuous repeat of the same crime. At one point 8 x 190s took off from St Trond and two of them were immediately damaged by the airfield's flak!

Incidentally, NO heavy bombers were shot down by flak the whole day, a lot were damaged and of course some could have subsequently crashed. Of course I should have had more flak at Schweinfurt but I'm still learning at it was a stupid mistake. Two allied fighters were shot down by flak in other places, as was four other of my aircraft. So basically I can't get past the idea that flak is more of a danger to my own aircraft than the enemy.

Add this to the frustration of my Me410s getting shot down chasing after fighters they can't catch and shouldn't be chasing anyway, and I'm getting a little fed up. Sure I can redirect them, but there's enough micromanagement anyway without having to go through the raid list every few minutes to find every twin engine fighter doing stupid things.




Hard Sarge -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (3/7/2010 12:45:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vimconfused

Sorry, bad example. Yes the one I quoted was one of the rail flak units I can actually move. On the screen when I select rail flak there are 15 locations highlighted in blue. These I can select and move. However, when I look at the rail flak list there are approx 30 flak bns. When I select one (from the list) that is not highlighted in blue, the map jumps to the location as expected, but it is not highlighted and I can't do anything with it. An example in my game is 416th S/E flak bn which is (in my game anyway) in Berlin.


from looking at them from the data side, I can't see anything, other then the weapon type and name

I think the name is something

these do look to be stand in place units, the GE and LE, seem to be moblie

so may have to look at the code to see if there is something different about them (some of the bigger gun types were not suppost to be able to move around, but most of the SE are 88 or 105



Erkki -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (4/7/2010 10:26:43 AM)

At least in 43 campaign, there seems to be at least one rail flak unit, Sumatra-Java something, in Bulgaria, in the middle of nowhere. Its not visible in the map but is selectable in the list and can be moved - also seemed like if the first time its moved it goes instantly where assigned.

I think its OK for the flak to shoot friendlies, but only late in campaign, say, 44 and onwards, after which "camouflaged is British, unpainted American, invisible friendly". Same in night, night fighter pilots used to turn off their IFF. Of course flak units stationed at airfields one would think to think twice before opening fire, especially knowing they most likely had telephones lined to the tower and radio room.



kaybayray -> RE: Flak personnel - why don't they get recognition training? (4/7/2010 8:18:44 PM)

Just some observations I have made over the years with the Original Version and with the new Matrix Version. I am speaking from the perspective of BTR in the 43 campaign running the Allies.

In both, when running BC night missions as the Allies I typically see at least 1 to 3 Luftwaffe AC get shot down by their own Flak. Some missions I see a few more but I typically see at least some each mission get shot down. I occasionally see this during the Daylight Missions but I dont recall it being as frequent as night missions. Now not knowing the mechanics of the game for Night Time and Target Recognition maybe some effect due to night. However there may be other possible explanations.

I figure my strikes fly near hundreds of Flak guns during the mission. If there is some formula that says X% chance of Misrecognition then after hundreds of Die rolls somebody is bound to misidentify somebody. I would imagine that this value is modified by factors such as Experience, Fatigue, Morale and maybe a few others I am not aware of like perhaps Stress or Fear or something like that that is being modeled in the mechanics of this routine. I dont know, perhaps Harley or Sarge do but it does make sense to me that across Europe and the Med with all the AC I am putting up that somebody is bound to make mistakes.

Now I do recall in one recent Daylight Operation I saw one Flak Battery shoot down at least 3 Friendlies over about a 1 hour period of the turn. I recall thinking... man... somebody's going to the Russian Front tomorrow. [8D]

All humor aside I have not seen what I consider a significant number of AC lost to Friendly Fire considering the number of AC flying over the map each day.

Later,
KayBay



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