Victory Point Objective idea? (Full Version)

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paullus99 -> Victory Point Objective idea? (3/6/2010 11:45:44 AM)

Well, an interesting idea - if it hasn't been mentioned before would be a series of victory point objectives - worth more points at the beginning & progressively less points as the game goes on:

1) 1941 Victory Objectives - Leningrad, Moscow, Kiev & Rostov

2) 1942 Victory Objectives - (on top of the ones above) Stalingrad, Saratov, Grozny and Baku

3) 1943 Victory Objectives - ?

etc, etc.

Players would be rewarded by capturing key objectives early, but the points go down (worth less) as time goes by - with new objectives (offensive targets) at the beginning of each year. Eventually, the Germans are fighting to hold on to their accumulated points (plus get points for eliminating Russian troops/units) and not allow the Russians to do the same on their end.

Of course, this means the Russian player is strictly fighting to keep the Germans from winning for a while (probably into 1943) - but that is pretty historical.

Thoughts?



Balou -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/6/2010 3:41:21 PM)

Since WitE is a "you have to fight with what you get" game, I doubt that the Axis would be able to win if they are forced to keep up an 1941-style offensive into 1943. Sure it depends on how much victory points you earn in the first place, but defending lets say Moscow and Leningrad and at the same time attacking eg Stalingrad and Saratov in 42 mainly because you steadily loose your victory points earned in Moscow and Leningrad could bring the Axis under a lot more of pressure. As long as WitE forces the Axis into an early victory with little chance to win after 1942, than your proposed model wouldn't make it easier for the Axis player (of course I hope I didn't misunderstand your point).



paullus99 -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/7/2010 1:50:07 PM)

I guess to clarify - in 1941, Germany is looking for a knock-out blow that would put Russia out of the war as quickly as possible. The original objectives of the campaign were Leningrad, Moscow & Kiev (most of the Ukraine really), so the original victory objectives should probably reflect that (along with bonus cities, like Gorky or Rostov, if the German player can get there.

In 1942, Germany was looking for the next best objective to try to get Russia to finally collapse - places like Saratov, Stalingrad & the Caucausus, so these might make sense as new objectives to try to put the VP level over the top (and by this time, Leningrad & Moscow aren't quite the objectives they were in 1941 & their capture in 1942 would not have had the same effect on Russian morale).

In 1943, Germany was limited to trying to destroy as much Russian firepower as possible to either go back on the offensive strategically or achieve more of a stalemate (for rebuilding), so the objectives were much more limited.

So, if the German player captures Moscow & Leningrad in 1941 - they are worth more points, but less points in 1942 & beyond, because they are less important to ending the war on German terms (if that would even be possible without a crushing victory in 1941). Again, I don't know if this is possible, but it would reflect the course of the war & not just make victory arbitrarily based on capturing one or two cities on the board.

Just a thought.



Balou -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/7/2010 7:31:47 PM)

Thanks for clarifying.
Let's suppose the Axis gets Moscow but not Leningrad in 41 and hence "not enough" VP for a decisive victory. What happens to those VP in 42 earned for Moscow in 41 ? Will the Axis keep them ? How to assign VPs for Leningrad in 42 as compared to VPs for Stalingrad in 42 ? I try to figure out how you propose to handle sort of shifting VPs. I agree that the loss of Stalingrad would have been a massive blow to both Sov morale and war industry, but I assume that the same accounted for Leningrad even after 41. After all Leningrad was still a major industrial and armour producing center with a huge amount of manpower and bearing the name of "Lenin". We don't know anything yet of how "important" Leningrad will be in WitE from the point of view of industry, resources, morale etc but I doubt the figures will decrease after 41. How would you handle that in terms of VP?

One more thing. I saw your posts in the AAR and I refer to the one where you mentioned the thrust towards Moscow, the endangered flanks of AGC, and AGS lagging behind in the Ukraine. In case elmo manages to occupy Moscow and Leningrad in 41, and loose both to a successful Sov counter-attack in 42: would your model implement that from the VPs earned in 41 you wouldn't loose all of them (since both cities are worth less in 42), therefore keeping the difference in VPs ?




paullus99 -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/7/2010 8:33:18 PM)

Well, it really depends on what you can expect would be left for the Germans to capture - if you're late in capturing Leningrad, it wouldn't be a stretch to expect that the Russians would have evacuated just about everything of value (including people & industry), so it would be more of a hollow victory to seize Leningrad in 1942 (as it was, the Germans just about levelled the city with artillery during the seige, so not much was going on their in terms of industry anyway).

I guess my thought was accumulating victory points (like WiTP) - but with cities worth more the earlier you capture them (and also holding them longer & getting more points). You'd want to defend certain cities till the last possible moment, to capitalize on the points you'd receive from them.

Of course, you could simply make all the cities be worth a set amount of points, but it would decrease slowly over time (until the Axis capture them), so you are rewarded for early efforts & penalized as the game moves forward (since in general, the Axis will get weaker & the Russians stronger as the game moves forward - so as the Germans, you'll want to try to do as much damage to the Russian economy as possible, so if the game does go into 1943 & 1944, you have a chance of stopping the counteroffensives).



Fred98 -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/8/2010 12:28:36 AM)

The game has 2 sides: Russians and Germans. You’re idea presumes there are only Germans.

Those victory locations in the middle and the right hand side of the map – are targets of the Germans. Receive X points per turn for holding them. As the war progresses the number of points per turn reduces.

The war ended when the Russians captured Berlin.

The victory locations in the middle and the left side of the map, are objectives of the Russians. The Russians receive X points per turn for holding them.

After Berlin falls, add all the German points and add all the Russian points and the one with the most points is the winner.

-



paullus99 -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/8/2010 2:14:37 AM)

Only addressed the Germans, because it is up in the air what the victory cities are (well, we can guess, but I imagine a few will be added as well - unless all the cities give the German player points).

It is a little easier for the Russians - as Berlin is target #1



freeboy -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/8/2010 4:19:17 AM)

I think, depending on how much freedom is given to the modding community that a very realistic mod of this type of reward for achievement could be worked into the game.. we will see..
I would say troops levels and supplies could be affected...



PyleDriver -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/8/2010 4:25:10 AM)

Well Joe will run to the hills and still keep the power...So, what do we do...My guess is get all the people...



Joel Billings -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/8/2010 8:33:25 PM)

The basic victory system (intended for the shorter scenarios) allows players to set up to 10 city objective hexes for each side. For each objective, the scenario designer can set the number of points the player gets each turn that they control the city (actually each player-turn, so twice a game turn). You can also set the number of points the player gets at the end of the scenario. In addition, players lose points for casualties they take. One point is lost for each 1000 men, 100 guns, 10 AFVs and 5 aircraft destroyed. The designer can then set a modifier from 1% to 1000% to each side's losses for VP purposes. So if you set the Soviets to 20%, it would take 5000 men or 500 guns or 50 AFVs or 25 aircraft for the Soviets to lose a VP.

We had not necessarily planned to use this for the campaign games, however, there's nothing saying it couldn't. Anyone want to suggest a full war VP set up using system?



Balou -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/9/2010 5:40:55 PM)

Why not using the same system as in WitP ? Don't know how much victory in WitP depends on VPs for ships and strategic bombing but from my understanding it's a similar situation, hence similar goals both for the Axis and the Japanese: achieve quick victory or conquests (russian cities and the Ukraine in WitE vs. SRA/Oz or the like in WitP) and then hold out against the Soviet/Allied tide until game ends in 45/46. Have people been unhappy with WitP-VPs ?



freeboy -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/9/2010 6:48:25 PM)

Joel.. can you go into more detail on how losses of cities affect each side.. ie Germany takes Kiev, Sov's lose manpower? Germany gets?
thanks



Joel Billings -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/9/2010 8:38:40 PM)

Soviets lose manpower, although some manpower would migrate to another city. I think Soviets lose whatever factories that have not moved out. Germans could use some city manpower to help build forts. I think Heavy Industry, Resources, Oil and Fuel Production remain in the city, although it is damaged. I think these items can be used by either side once repaired, but I'm not 100% sure about that.



Helpless -> RE: Victory Point Objective idea? (3/9/2010 9:20:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Soviets lose manpower, although some manpower would migrate to another city. I think Soviets lose whatever factories that have not moved out. Germans could use some city manpower to help build forts. I think Heavy Industry, Resources, Oil and Fuel Production remain in the city, although it is damaged. I think these items can be used by either side once repaired, but I'm not 100% sure about that.



Captured Heavy Industries and Fuel production cannot be used. Resources and Oil can.



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