RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (Full Version)

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khyberbill -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/8/2010 8:06:09 PM)

quote:

Didn't we have this conversation when the game came out?


Deja vu all over again!



Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/8/2010 8:12:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

cat fat.


[image]local://upfiles/8241/834E53F4E8664147856AB8AED0C5519F.jpg[/image]



wow, never seen that before [X(]


I'd seen it but never understood it before now, Makes sense to have planes getting fatigue/stress . Just a thought but running a relatively high search % would run up plane fatigue (due to range travelled). Castor have a look at your cat sqds and see how many planes have been cannabalised (forget the game term ) .. might be the ops losses your seeing as planes become spare parts. Just a theory though. Ill have a look at my PBEM cat units when i get a turn back and check.

flying Cats consistently from an atoll with just an AV or AVD as a tender would lead to more RL plane write off than a well established naval base with facilities for flying boats. Not to give my esteemed opponent too much info but i have a few forward AV bases as my eyes. again I'll compare them to noumea/aussie based Sqds.




awadley -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/8/2010 9:33:29 PM)

Finally, someone noticed the AVD, AD, and AVP ships.  They seem to help with the maintenance when they have supply and are at the bases.  I am not sure that PBYs and amphibs get full support from the Base Air support.  Thus the need for the above ship types.  Just my humble opinion, and seems to work in my games.



Chris21wen -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 8:31:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

OK, I found the screen. So how do I reduce the fatigue of the planes? Stand them down? Fly at a smaller percentage?


Be sure to put some on REST, at least 20%. I generally set my patrol aircraft up like this...

Naval Search Mission:

Naval Search 60%
Training 20%
Rest 20%


This thread mde me check my patrol losses and they are very high. For instance PBY-5 has lost over a 107 a/c to ops, 2 aa, 40 fround. I always leave a new unit sitting on rest until their moral reaches at least 60 and train them on 80 general training until thier exp get to 40-45.

I mostly fly with normal range with

Naval Search 60%
Training 0%
Rest 10%

I think many of the problems stemming from a/c flying in bad weather. I don't think the game restricts a/c enough when it is. The local commander should be able to order a/c not to fly unless it's critical.



michaelm75au -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 8:33:06 AM)

Longer patrols means increased fatigue on pilots AND planes.
Pilots rest up and recover fatigue between missions when given a chance.
Planes recover fatigue when stood down, being repaired but mainly when undergoing maintenance.
Maintenance happens once the plane fatigue exceeds the Maintenance level (found on the screen shown above next to Durability) with a bit of randomness thrown in. Generally a forced maintenance is shown in the Ops report.

Plane fatigue can increase the chance of 'op loss or damage'.

Base has no bearing on Ops damage but it does on Ops loss.
The code checks against the base's capacity;if it too crowded and the pilot is of low experience (50-), then it is possible for plane to lean towards crashing on landing. Float planes get around this code by using an inflated capacity of 100 times the a/f size. [the comparison is against a random 200, so a base 3 or higher always gets around the check and does not get any loss. It also gets a bonus against cracking up if the random 200 is less than the capacity.]
But if you are flying from an a/f of 0 or 1, the loses would be extreme if the pilot was of low experience (<50) - with a a/f of 0 almost every test would fail to be above a random(0-199).
This is old code and I'm afraid was not touched when I added the support for float planes to land on water and get pass some of these Ops checks.
My inclination if to treat the af as a minimum of 2 when dealing with float planes -  this would still give the planes .5% chance of crashing on landing for a low experienced pilot.

I'll need to run some tests to see that pans out.

[Edit: Base size does not affect Ops Damage; let out a 'no'.]



castor troy -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 8:42:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Longer patrols means increased fatigue on pilots AND planes.
Pilots rest up and recover fatigue between missions when given a chance.
Planes recover fatigue when stood down, being repaired but mainly when undergoing maintenance.
Maintenance happens once the plane fatigue exceeds the Maintenance level (found on the screen shown above next to Durability) with a bit of randomness thrown in. Generally a forced maintenance is shown in the Ops report.

Plane fatigue can increase the chance of 'op loss or damage'.

Base has bearing on Ops damage but it does on Ops loss.
The code checks against the base's capacity;if it too crowded and the pilot is of low experience (50-), then it is possible for plane to lean towards crashing on landing. Float planes get around this code by using an inflated capacity of 100 times the a/f size. [the comparison is against a random 200, so a base 3 or higher always gets around the check and does not get any loss. It also gets a bonus against cracking up if the random 200 is less than the capacity.]
But if you are flying from an a/f of 0 or 1, the loses would be extreme if the pilot was of low experience (<50) - with a a/f of 0 almost every test would fail to be above a random(0-199).
This is old code and I'm afraid was not touched when I added the support for float planes to land on water and get pass some of these Ops checks.
My inclination if to treat the af as a minimum of 2 when dealing with float planes -  this would still give the planes .5% chance of crashing on landing for a low experienced pilot.

I'll need to run some tests to see that pans out.





thanks for this detailed info michaelm



CarnageINC -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 9:01:02 AM)

Looking at what info I can gather, you pilots are racking up a huge total of sorties.  This alone could account for what seems like a higher ops loss rate.  Do some comparisons with bomber crews or fighters....average out pilots sorties in a squadron, then compare to squadrons of similar size and see how how the loss rate ratio is.  Maybe that's the answer?



bklooste -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 9:38:45 AM)

Because most players work them to the bone..

While the unit currently has no fatigue in brisbane 124 missions indicates its been very busy....



castor troy -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 10:05:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

Because most players work them to the bone..

While the unit currently has no fatigue in brisbane 124 missions indicates its been very busy....



I havenīt adjusted the unitīs setting though. I donīt use them 100% all the time to then take a screenshot after having them stood down to show you low fatigue. This threadīs purpose was to find a solution for my problem not to show you a "cheated" screenshot. The screenshot shows an average squadron that hasnīt been touched for weeks before taking this screenshot.



crsutton -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 2:51:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

 
Restrict  PBYs to 10 hexes, 40 % search, 10-20% training, and 50-40% rest and your ops losses will go way down.
Also when transferring long flights run the risk of ops losses as well.



I can confirm this although I use slightly different setting. One mission only. ASW or search, %40 set to fly, no other missions, none set on rest, If patrolling in zones of enemy air superiorty or over bases, I use higher altitides (12,000 ft) and I do not search at maximum range as you rarely spot anything beyond 12-14 hexes. Then I watch the morale. If it starts to drop below 85, I rotate the unit to rest it completly. My pools have about 20-25 cats of each type.

I avoid using them for recon over major bases. You will lose a lot of them this way. Makes sense as they were slow and vulnerable.

I also train up some of my B17s. (D model is good for this) in naval search and use them to fill out the gaps early in the game. B17s are tough and seem to survive better.

Only problem is there never are enough.




Pascal_slith -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 3:08:20 PM)

Great thread (again). Ops losses weren't so bad in WitP even at 100% search. AE has really added more detail (simulation).



castor troy -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 3:35:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

 
Restrict  PBYs to 10 hexes, 40 % search, 10-20% training, and 50-40% rest and your ops losses will go way down.
Also when transferring long flights run the risk of ops losses as well.



I can confirm this although I use slightly different setting. One mission only. ASW or search, %40 set to fly, no other missions, none set on rest, If patrolling in zones of enemy air superiorty or over bases, I use higher altitides (12,000 ft) and I do not search at maximum range as you rarely spot anything beyond 12-14 hexes. Then I watch the morale. If it starts to drop below 85, I rotate the unit to rest it completly. My pools have about 20-25 cats of each type.

I avoid using them for recon over major bases. You will lose a lot of them this way. Makes sense as they were slow and vulnerable.

I also train up some of my B17s. (D model is good for this) in naval search and use them to fill out the gaps early in the game. B17s are tough and seem to survive better.

Only problem is there never are enough.




there wonīt be much chance other than to further reduce my numbers on search (thought 70% would be "ok") or to keep on disbanding squadrons to keep up with the losses. With two more disbanded I guess I could replace the losses and keep up with them with the monthly replacements. Using only 50% or less on search is very discouraging as my squadrons donīt spot anything else than my own TFs three hexes off the base anyway. Oh wait, if KB is around I "spot" it due to the fact that I suddenly get info on a Cat being shot down somewhere in the Pacific. [:D]

Range of only 10 isnīt the way to go for me either as this is just not enough in AE IMO. 10 hexes in WITP could be enough but in AE itīs not that far considering the fact that you see TFs zipping in at 8 hexes per phase for a raid or bombardement or 8 hexes per turn if they move at cruise speed. Therefore 16 hexes would be optimal if only thinking about the usual distances moved by SC or CV TFs.

As it is now, I estimate my needs about 20 Cats per month while I get only 17 IIRC (speaking about US only). And this without filling out my empty squadrons I receive. And thatīs my main problem, I can hardly keep up with my op losses and should also equip my empty reinforcement squadrons.

edit: just did a rough calculation on the op losses posted on the first page of this thread. If we roughly take 6 months of war and the op losses (of the US types) then I end up with 16,83 op losses per month which is covered by the 17 replacements. Add in the squadrons that are missing aircraft and possible combat losses and I end up with too few obviously... [:D]



Pascal_slith -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 3:49:00 PM)

Average monthly production figures for the PBY-5 and PBY-5A was about 19-20 aircraft each. (Check the Wikipedia page on Catalinas, the total production figures are there and the production months). This production was for all theaters and given the use of the aircraft all over the world, the available production for AE is reasonable, so no issue there.

Ah, logistics, logistics, logistics....



crsutton -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 5:18:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

 
Restrict  PBYs to 10 hexes, 40 % search, 10-20% training, and 50-40% rest and your ops losses will go way down.
Also when transferring long flights run the risk of ops losses as well.



I can confirm this although I use slightly different setting. One mission only. ASW or search, %40 set to fly, no other missions, none set on rest, If patrolling in zones of enemy air superiorty or over bases, I use higher altitides (12,000 ft) and I do not search at maximum range as you rarely spot anything beyond 12-14 hexes. Then I watch the morale. If it starts to drop below 85, I rotate the unit to rest it completly. My pools have about 20-25 cats of each type.

I avoid using them for recon over major bases. You will lose a lot of them this way. Makes sense as they were slow and vulnerable.

I also train up some of my B17s. (D model is good for this) in naval search and use them to fill out the gaps early in the game. B17s are tough and seem to survive better.

Only problem is there never are enough.




there wonīt be much chance other than to further reduce my numbers on search (thought 70% would be "ok") or to keep on disbanding squadrons to keep up with the losses. With two more disbanded I guess I could replace the losses and keep up with them with the monthly replacements. Using only 50% or less on search is very discouraging as my squadrons donīt spot anything else than my own TFs three hexes off the base anyway. Oh wait, if KB is around I "spot" it due to the fact that I suddenly get info on a Cat being shot down somewhere in the Pacific. [:D]

Range of only 10 isnīt the way to go for me either as this is just not enough in AE IMO. 10 hexes in WITP could be enough but in AE itīs not that far considering the fact that you see TFs zipping in at 8 hexes per phase for a raid or bombardement or 8 hexes per turn if they move at cruise speed. Therefore 16 hexes would be optimal if only thinking about the usual distances moved by SC or CV TFs.

As it is now, I estimate my needs about 20 Cats per month while I get only 17 IIRC (speaking about US only). And this without filling out my empty squadrons I receive. And thatīs my main problem, I can hardly keep up with my op losses and should also equip my empty reinforcement squadrons.

edit: just did a rough calculation on the op losses posted on the first page of this thread. If we roughly take 6 months of war and the op losses (of the US types) then I end up with 16,83 op losses per month which is covered by the 17 replacements. Add in the squadrons that are missing aircraft and possible combat losses and I end up with too few obviously... [:D]


Yeah, I would like to see the quality of Naval search bumbed up just a little bit. Too much suprise in the game. WITP air search was too stong. Perhaps something in the middle would work about right. I have trained my patrol planes up a bit but and it remains to be seen if they will get better at the job.

But so far I am managing the OP losses and can live with it but worry if I get some more squadrons that I will not be able to keep them up to strength.
However, in a few months I should see some ventura and PBY liberators come on line. That should ease the strain on the cats.

I got other more important gripes to tend to. [:D]



SuluSea -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 6:29:22 PM)

FWIW, I believe relying just on PBYs for naval search is not using your assets as well as possible. [just incase anyone is]

If an important TF is landing on a freindly beach near the front lines sometime soon I have
picket subs, picket boats, extra LBA search and even a few sub placed mines out at sea from an expected departure point of the enemy say Truk/Rebaul [just to try and throw a wrench in the works] and of course CAP in place or on the way.

I do believe as the war goes along the better trained pilots will spot much more than we're seeing early.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 8:24:14 PM)

Castor, in another thread you were talking about this. We were having almost the same losses: around 16 or 17 per month.

The case is, someone on that thread gave an advice. I followed it and now my losses dropped to 6 or 7 per month. Either there are gremlins on your game or I would like to know what you are doing exactly [:)]

All I did: 12 hexes and 50% search, that's all. Are you doing this, or the search range is longer? More than the 50% of pilots fly?

P.S.: needless to say, with 6 or 7 lost planes you can more or less survive (9 + 8 = 17 replacements per month or 8 + 8, I can't remember exactly). True, you need quite many months to have all of your squadrons filled with planes. But is that historical or not? I don't know the answer.



Shark7 -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/9/2010 11:53:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

 
Restrict  PBYs to 10 hexes, 40 % search, 10-20% training, and 50-40% rest and your ops losses will go way down.
Also when transferring long flights run the risk of ops losses as well.



I can confirm this although I use slightly different setting. One mission only. ASW or search, %40 set to fly, no other missions, none set on rest, If patrolling in zones of enemy air superiorty or over bases, I use higher altitides (12,000 ft) and I do not search at maximum range as you rarely spot anything beyond 12-14 hexes. Then I watch the morale. If it starts to drop below 85, I rotate the unit to rest it completly. My pools have about 20-25 cats of each type.

I avoid using them for recon over major bases. You will lose a lot of them this way. Makes sense as they were slow and vulnerable.

I also train up some of my B17s. (D model is good for this) in naval search and use them to fill out the gaps early in the game. B17s are tough and seem to survive better.

Only problem is there never are enough.




Try playing as Japan...no matter what it is, there are never enough. [:D]

I also train Army LBA to fill in the gaps, since there aren't enough Emilies and Jakes to go around. ki-51 is actually fairly good at the ASW mission when trained up...at least in the home waters.



castor troy -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/10/2010 9:04:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Castor, in another thread you were talking about this. We were having almost the same losses: around 16 or 17 per month.

The case is, someone on that thread gave an advice. I followed it and now my losses dropped to 6 or 7 per month. Either there are gremlins on your game or I would like to know what you are doing exactly [:)]

All I did: 12 hexes and 50% search, that's all. Are you doing this, or the search range is longer? More than the 50% of pilots fly?

P.S.: needless to say, with 6 or 7 lost planes you can more or less survive (9 + 8 = 17 replacements per month or 8 + 8, I can't remember exactly). True, you need quite many months to have all of your squadrons filled with planes. But is that historical or not? I don't know the answer.



The overall settings now are 70% search, pilots maxxed out, max normal range (different for the different PBY types), 6000ft.

So Iīve got mine at 3 or 4 hexes more range with 20% more search than yours. Of course during the time I decreased my search % it also resulted in a decrease of ac lost, in the same ratio as Iīve decreased the search of course.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/10/2010 12:45:56 PM)

Ok, I see. That explains your heavy losses [:)]

When I was having your same [operational] losses the 80% of pilots were doing something: 50% search + 30% train. I always used the same search range though: 12 hexes.

50% is not that bad. Ideally a squadron can explore 120 degrees. And as others have already said, follow history: use bombers as patrol planes [8D]



castor troy -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/10/2010 12:57:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Ok, I see. That explains your heavy losses [:)]

When I was having your same [operational] losses the 80% of pilots were doing something: 50% search + 30% train. I always used the same search range though: 12 hexes.

50% is not that bad. Ideally a squadron can explore 120 degrees. And as others have already said, follow history: use bombers as patrol planes [8D]



yeah, I follow history and am using bombers anyway. Like Iīve mentioned early on in this thread there are a couple of bombers that you can make good use of. The Hudson III with radar and a range of 14 comes to mind. Now the same applies here, they drop out of the sky just like the PBYs with the settings of 70% search on normal radius with maxxed out pilot numbers. Reducing to 50% reduces the losses at the same percentage like you decrease search.

And it seems that the plane fatigue isnīt really making a difference as it seems to me that the plane fatigue is just accumulated to reach the point where the plane has to undergo maintenance. So if this has to be at 50 and you fly 50 hexes in four days then maintenance happens after four days. If you fly the distance in 10 days then maintenance has to happen after 10 days. It doesnīt seem to make flying saver though.



LoBaron -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/10/2010 1:01:23 PM)

Not sure if this is true but if plane fatigue is somehow related to increased chances
for damage to the AC then this still could explain the number of op losses.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/10/2010 1:03:51 PM)

One thing is certain, if you keep using that strategy you will be having more losses than replacements (your case right now). I guess you need a solution, that's all. I trusted that contributor's advice. He was right, it's all I can say. So do as you wish... [:)]




Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/10/2010 7:34:58 PM)

Plane fatigue does definately build up quite fast when on long missions (checking my search B17 and some LR PBY units) , this only seems to make maintainance scedules come round faster (makes sense) and with the B17's horrid level 4 setting explains why search B17's are almost always 40% in the hangar even with extra pilots and on max normal range(50% search, any more and down time a/c puts daily holes in the search arcs as available planes fluctuate too wildly).

I have got PBY's on level 0 airfields (using AV+AVD ships) and do not see any huge damage issuses MichaelM , not that i don't beileve you, but do these ships contribute to the AF size for flying boats ?

quote:

Finally, someone noticed the AVD, AD, and AVP ships. They seem to help with the maintenance when they have supply and are at the bases. I am not sure that PBYs and amphibs get full support from the Base Air support. Thus the need for the above ship types. Just my humble opinion, and seems to work in my games.


Even use AGP's [;)], although they dont seem to re-supply PT boat torps [&:] (ignore this , heading OT)



Xxzard -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/11/2010 4:09:47 AM)

I think reducing to 50 percent is a good idea. For a while, I had O2SU Kingfisher squadrons flying out of San Diego on ASW missions, and I couldn't figure out why they had daily op losses. Turns out the patrol percentages were messed up, with too many patrolling, and not enough resting. Once I fixed that, I think I've only lost maybe 1 or 2 out of about 70 planes patrolling over a three-four month period.



topeverest -> RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE (3/12/2010 4:06:32 PM)

I experienced similar losses in long range naval searches before I found some center. The advice to keep it will within the normal range of the aircraft and 50 - 60% search is vital. Support and base size seems to impact too. Rest if fatigue is over 10 and rest if morale is below 90. That should keep your patrol planes in business. You will be able to pulse up to 100% when a battle occurs.

Just know you dont have enough patrol to cover the approaches to all your bases. You need to substitute others or do less searching.



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