Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (Full Version)

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bclemans -> Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/12/2010 7:43:24 PM)

I read from that most Army panzer brigades did not perform well because of various reasons. One of them being they lack the other components of panzer divisions.

Another thread suggest it is possible to add individual battalions to divisions.

I wonder if it possible to allow the creation of a New Panzer Division by combining an infantry division and a panzer brigade? Of course there are other details such as providing transportation for the infantry to make them motorized...etc.

E.g. 100th Panzer Division = 100th Panzer Brigade + An infantry division + supporting groups (if necessary), the name of the new Division "100th" comes from the Brigade it replaces.

Since the game already allowing disbanding a division (which allows the manpower / equipment to go back to the replacement pool), it is essentially giving the Axis player (in charge of Eastern Front resources) to reshuffle the available resources.

So I think that it is reasonable to allow the flexibility to reshuffle available resources to create more effective fighting force (if player choose to do so). WIR includes 10 panzer brigades, converting them to panzer divisions gives the Axis some concentrated fire power and perhaps ability to counter attack in later years and have a better chance to fight for a draw.



jaw -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/12/2010 8:56:52 PM)

No, it is not possible to combine a Panzer Brigade with an infantry division or anything else for that matter. Axis divisions can breakdown into three equal parts (regimental kampfgruppen) but they can only re-combine those particular parts to re-form the division.

On the Soviet side, rifle brigades can combine to form new rifle divisions (but rifle divisions cannot break back down into brigades), tank brigades can combine with other tank brigades or motorized or mechanized brigades to form tank or mechanized corps, rifle divisions can combine to form rifle corps and cavalry divisions can combine to form cavalry corps. All the "corps" formations can breakdown but the component brigades of tank and mechanized corps can only be re-combined into their original corps (i.e. in this case they are like Axis regiments). By contrast, rifle and cavalry corps breakdown into completely new divisions unassociated with their former corps.



bclemans -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/13/2010 12:33:04 AM)

Thanks for the explanation and sounds like it can be done (if the programmers choose to implement this request) as currently, it is already programmed to handle the Soviet side.

I am really hoping this could be done to add some excitement for the Axis player in late 43' or 44'

What do you think?



Great_Ajax -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/13/2010 1:34:02 AM)

I think you are going to have a hard time keeping your normal panzer and ss panzer divisions up to strength as it is. The Soviets in late war are no joke. Additionally, you have about 8-12 panzer training divisions that show up in early 45 as shells which you can build up to full strength if you want too.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: bclemans

Thanks for the explanation and sounds like it can be done (if the programmers choose to implement this request) as currently, it is already programmed to handle the Soviet side.

I am really hoping this could be done to add some excitement for the Axis player in late 43' or 44'

What do you think?




paullus99 -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/13/2010 10:29:59 AM)

I believe we may have discussed this before, but Panzer divisions were a lot more than just a bunch of tanks & infantry - there are serious doctrinal differences between infantry and Panzers - probably doesn't matter a whole late in 1944 - 45, where german divisions were getting destroyed wholesale, but what might work on paper wouldn't work on the actual battlefield.



ComradeP -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/13/2010 2:07:33 PM)

Sorry to hijack the thread but, jaw are you saying that Rifle Divisions can't be broken up? All those Rifle brigades we see in both Elmo's and PyleDriver's AAR are independent brigades?



Zovs -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/13/2010 7:10:51 PM)

ComradeP,

Yes.



bclemans -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/13/2010 7:51:49 PM)

Thanks for the explanations.

However, there are some differences.

As explained in another thread "any unit that arrives on-map doesn't have its equipment drawn from the production pool and is essentially what we call a "free production" unit" - So the Panzer Brigades arrive at much higher strength than the "8-12 panzer training divisions that show up in early 45".
The latter, I agree are mere "shells" which at that late in time, it doesn't matter for the Germans.

Also (at least in WIR), two brigades arrive in 41', one in 42, 2 in 43' and 4 in 44' so if they are maintained properly and allowed to transform to panzer divisions. They can make a difference (in striking power and mobility) in both early years and late years - which I meant late 43' or later.

I understand that "Panzer divisions were a lot more than just a bunch of tanks & infantry" but the game is not being consistent in treating the Axis and Soviets.

The Soviet's are allowed to combine tank brigades to form tank corps (which is equivalent in size to German divisions) while the Germans aren't. Thanks.



Montbrun -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/13/2010 8:12:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bclemans

Thanks for the explanations.

However, there are some differences.

As explained in another thread "any unit that arrives on-map doesn't have its equipment drawn from the production pool and is essentially what we call a "free production" unit" - So the Panzer Brigades arrive at much higher strength than the "8-12 panzer training divisions that show up in early 45".
The latter, I agree are mere "shells" which at that late in time, it doesn't matter for the Germans.

Also (at least in WIR), two brigades arrive in 41', one in 42, 2 in 43' and 4 in 44' so if they are maintained properly and allowed to transform to panzer divisions. They can make a difference (in striking power and mobility) in both early years and late years - which I meant late 43' or later.

I understand that "Panzer divisions were a lot more than just a bunch of tanks & infantry" but the game is not being consistent in treating the Axis and Soviets.

The Soviet's are allowed to combine tank brigades to form tank corps (which is equivalent in size to German divisions) while the Germans aren't. Thanks.



It's all about doctrine. The Soviet Tank Corps were their Panzer Divisions. Also, Soviet training and doctrine is reflected in the fact that you can't
break down certain units - ie Rifle Divisions - you don't want them to be that flexible.



bclemans -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/15/2010 3:38:03 AM)

From what I had read, here are a few examples of how panzer divisions were evolved from panzer brigades and infantry divisions.

-In 39' and 40' the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th panzer divisions each have a panzer brigade (consisted of two panzer regiments).
-11th Panzer Division created on 8/1940 from the 11th Schutzen Brigade.
-14th Panzer Division created on 8/1940 from 4th Infantry Division.
-15th Panzer Division created on 11/1940 from 33rd Infantry Division. Source: Panzer, A Revolution in Warfare, 1939-1945
-10th Panzer Division was formed from the 4th Panzer Brigade in 1939. Source: Panzer Colors II

I am hoping further consideration will be given to allow Panzer Brigades
-Form Panzer division by combing an infantry division.
-Or if there is too much programming work, how about allowing infantry/engineer...etc battalions to be attached to them?



Zovs -> RE: Combine Panzer Brigade + Infantry Division to form Panzer Division? (3/15/2010 4:15:56 AM)

Each German Division and Soviet Corps can have up to three units attached to them, so for example in 1943 you can attack a heavy panzer battalion, a pioneer battalion and a light AA battalion if you wish to a Panzer Division, likewise, for say a Soviet Guards Mech Corps you can attach a Separate tank regiment, a sapper-engineer battalion and a SU regiment.



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