Shot Down Returning To Base (Full Version)

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vimconfused -> Shot Down Returning To Base (3/14/2010 2:34:11 AM)

Having a lot of aircraft shot down returning to my bases (mainly twin engine fighters it seems) by allied aircraft also returning to theirs. With so many allied aircraft on so many raids, it is not surprising that a lot of German aircraft will "cross the streams" (please excuse Ghostbusters reference) on their way home and get hit. But hang on.... what height are they flying at when they get bounced? It seems to me (please advise if this is not true) that aircraft return to base at their combat altitude, and if they've been fighting bombers then they'll be just the right height to be bounced by fighters from some completely different raid that they randomly run into on the way home! But how historical is this? I don't know, so let me know if I'm wrong, but why the hell would pilots withdrawing from combat fly at altitudes that makes them sitting ducks? Why wouldn't they descend so low that if they flew under returning Allied escorts they would either not be noticed or the escorts wouldn't have the endurance or inclination to descend to attack. But I have no knowledge of actual tactics, so someone let me know if this is yet another disadvantage to the German player.



wernerpruckner -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/14/2010 8:03:19 AM)

The returning flights of the Axis player are not as bad as the were in the original BtR - they can fight back and often enough do so.
In real life the Germans fighters were often enough hunted down near their airfields later in the war.....more than once 10 or more German fighters were caught during landing or starting ( August Lambert was shot down in such a way)



Hard Sarge -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/14/2010 3:40:37 PM)

I have always disliked the story of how Lambert went down, so close to the end and to get killed like that, was "unfair"

I think it was Marguart, who was shot down at the end, who fell wounded from his plane, and landed in a Hosp yard, if he had landed any where else, he would not of made it

end of 44, it was bad, in 45 it was a slaughter



vimconfused -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/16/2010 12:46:50 PM)

I really do take your point about this sort of thing happening, particularly specifically hunting down fighters returning to base. However, my point is if the program makes any attempt to let the returning aircraft avoid accidental interception. So once they've finished their combat at 25,000 feet, why would they fly home at that altitude? We're not talking surprise attack... my returning aircraft are being hit by crossing the streams of *known* allied aircraft - so why wouldn't ground controllers vector them away or at the very least put a great deal of height between them?

I'm at a stage in the game where the things I can control, like initial interception and battle to the target are going quite well. What is extremely frustrating are the random elements like:
> losing a lot of my twin engine fighters because they stray into known enemy formations on the way home at a height just right for them to be shot down;
> having a lot of my twin engine fighters unavailable for combat because they go off chasing escorts returning home that they can't catch and even if they could they wouldn't stand a chance in combat anyway;
> flak shooting down my own aircraft and doing a lot of damage to many others, even when there are no enemy in the vicinity; and of course
> strafing of my guys sitting in the cockpit of their aircraft, even when I've given them the day off.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/16/2010 1:47:03 PM)

hassle is, that is what happened

for the twins, they got pushed deeper and deeper into the homelands, away from the front, and only were sent up, when something deep was coming, and once the Stang got going, even that wasn't enough, soon afterwards, the Twins were either Night Fighters, or in the scrapyard

(for AA, just read a quote last night from a English AA man, talking about in Italy, first it was the Jerry, then it was the RAF, then it was the Jerry again, we didn't care, we fired at everyone)

also in Italy, III./JG53 the GK talking about when the phone lines got cut to his field, and nobody knew the RAF raid was coming, he lost 9 pilots, and 14 planes that day

the Issue here, for the player is, the game system, assigns a pilot to a plane at the start of the day, so, what ever happens, that pilot is tied to the plane, for good or bad, Harley has said, if he can, maybe he can bend the system, so a unit could be set to be unflyable, and the pilots wouldn't be assigned (but, that is something Harley has said he will look at, not something he has said he can or will do)

another thing on staffing, I think part of it is what the player is thinking, you see the pilot as not flying, so he should be safe, but, even if he is not in the airplane, he was still in danger any time a field was attacked and he was anywhere close to it

(odd story, during the BoB or just a little after, close to end of day and the squadron was given the rest of the day off, and all headed to the local pub, a bomber came over and "missed" the airfield, and hit the pub, and a number of the squadron members were killed and wounded, not trying to say we should try and model that, but, stuff happens, and in war, most of the stuff is bad)

for the Twins, the only real work around I can think of, would be either for the player to pull the Drop tanks off of them (load up on Cannon Paks) or I could lower the End for the daylight Twins (when I suggested that to the Testers way back when, they didn't like the idea of lowering the End, so I left it as is) (kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't ?)




Noon Gatherer -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/16/2010 8:46:06 PM)

hot tip:
when the allied escorts are returning from runs in separated/depleted squadrons, one can easily get kills hunting them down..



Rusty1961 -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/16/2010 11:09:22 PM)

quote:

(odd story, during the BoB or just a little after, close to end of day and the squadron was given the rest of the day off, and all headed to the local pub, a bomber came over and "missed" the airfield, and hit the pub, and a number of the squadron members were killed and wounded, not trying to say we should try and model that, but, stuff happens, and in war, most of the stuff is bad)


Yes, I've seen this same story posted here before.

The question is, is this an anomaly, or something that was more common than not?




Rusty1961 -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/16/2010 11:10:38 PM)

quote:

for the Twins, the only real work around I can think of, would be either for the player to pull the Drop tanks off of them (load up on Cannon Paks) or I could lower the End for the daylight Twins (when I suggested that to the Testers way back when, they didn't like the idea of lowering the End, so I left it as is) (kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't ?)



Or, how about a "recall button" so that the player can order a unit to RTB?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/17/2010 2:29:03 AM)

well, for the pilots, that is the thing, there is a lot of ways for pilots to get lost during the war, that make no real sense, flying in trainers, (landing on top of them selfs) (landing and having a haywagon cross the runway)

IIRC, there is ?



otisabuser2 -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/18/2010 2:38:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Yes, I've seen this same story posted here before.

The question is, is this an anomaly, or something that was more common than not?




Don't know if this is the incident being referred to, but on 26th April 1941 the Ferry Inn, nearn Coltishall was hit by a bomb. Of the 20 killed or injured, one of the killed was a pilot from 222 Squadron, Brian van Mentz, a South African who had fought in the Battle of Britain.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/18/2010 4:45:36 PM)

sounds right



Golden Bear -> RE: Shot Down Returning To Base (3/24/2010 2:01:32 AM)

Well, fighter control for the Axis really was not all that great if you read there own comments post-war during interviews.

Things seemed organized from the Allied side because they lost a LOT of aircraft but of course the other side did too.

The twin engined "fighters" were sitting ducks for any Allied fighter at any time. As Sarge noted, they needed to be pulled further and further back to protect them from interfacing with opposing fighters.

Carl



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