Long Lances... just, Wow.

Long Lances... just, Wow. (Full Version)

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Shark7 -> Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 6:24:34 PM)
OK, a little background first. Yes, this is a mod, no I did not make any changes to the devices. The game is on the Hard setting. St. George is a N3 Class BB with heavy armor and 18" guns. The two Japanese CAs you see are just Takao and Atago renamed due to adding in BBs that carry those names, BBs that had been cancelled under the Washington Treaty. This is a no Washington/London Treaty mod. Playing against AI. I watched this thing play out for the better part of an hour...it just kept on going, with Kongo/Haruna chasing down the British force. Note how few shell hits the Japanese ships took. Basically it boils down to 1 CA and 1 DD hitting with their Long Lances to turn this into an incredibly lopsided battle. End Result was that both British BBs were sunk outright...St. George during the battle, and PoW later that turn. Basic rundown, Niitaka fired torpedoes at St George twice, firing 2 at a time (2x2) and hitting with all 4 at 2k yards. Michishio flushed its tubes and hit PoW once. BTW, Haruna has 1 sys and 3 flood damage, Michishio is 28 Sys 18 Flood and 14 fires. Very minimal damage. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Time Surface Combat, near Kota Bharu at 52,74, Range 9,000 Yards Allied aircraft no flights Allied aircraft losses No Allied losses Japanese Ships BB Kongo BB Haruna, Shell hits 4 CA Kasuga CA Niitaka CL Jintsu DD Asashio DD Oshio DD Michishio, Shell hits 5, on fire DD Arashio DD Akatsuki DD Hibiki Allied Ships BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 37, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage DD Vampire, Shell hits 2, on fire DD Tenedos, Shell hits 3 DD Electra BB St. George, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 57% moonlight: 12,000 yards Range closes to 15,000 yards... CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 15,000 yards Range closes to 9,000 yards... CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 9,000 yards CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 9,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB St. George at 9,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 9,000 yards BB Haruna engages DD Electra at 9,000 yards CA Kasuga engages DD Tenedos at 9,000 yards BB Haruna engages DD Vampire at 9,000 yards DD Hibiki engages DD Tenedos at 9,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Vampire at 9,000 yards DD Oshio engages DD Electra at 9,000 yards Range closes to 2,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB St. George at 2,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 2,000 yards BB St. George sunk by CA Niitaka at 2,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 2,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Vampire at 2,000 yards DD Tenedos engages DD Hibiki at 2,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 2,000 yards DD Arashio engages DD Vampire at 2,000 yards DD Tenedos engages DD Michishio at 2,000 yards DD Electra engages DD Oshio at 2,000 yards Phillips, Tom S.V. orders Allied TF to disengage Range increases to 4,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 4,000 yards BB Kongo engages BB Prince of Wales at 4,000 yards CA Niitaka engages DD Tenedos at 4,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Vampire at 4,000 yards Range increases to 5,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 5,000 yards DD Electra engages DD Akatsuki at 5,000 yards CA Niitaka engages DD Tenedos at 5,000 yards CA Kasuga engages BB Prince of Wales at 5,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages CL Jintsu at 5,000 yards DD Oshio engages DD Electra at 5,000 yards DD Asashio engages DD Electra at 5,000 yards Range increases to 9,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 9,000 yards BB Kongo engages BB Prince of Wales at 9,000 yards DD Hibiki engages DD Tenedos at 9,000 yards CA Kasuga engages BB Prince of Wales at 9,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages CL Jintsu at 9,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 9,000 yards DD Tenedos engages DD Michishio at 9,000 yards Range increases to 11,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 11,000 yards BB Kongo engages BB Prince of Wales at 11,000 yards DD Michishio engages DD Tenedos at 11,000 yards DD Oshio engages DD Vampire at 11,000 yards DD Electra engages DD Arashio at 11,000 yards DD Oshio engages DD Electra at 11,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 11,000 yards BB Kongo engages DD Electra at 11,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages CA Niitaka at 11,000 yards DD Vampire engages DD Oshio at 11,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Vampire at 11,000 yards Range closes to 9,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 9,000 yards DD Oshio engages DD Electra at 9,000 yards DD Tenedos engages DD Oshio at 9,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages CA Kasuga at 9,000 yards DD Vampire engages DD Akatsuki at 9,000 yards DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 9,000 yards Range increases to 11,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 11,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages BB Kongo at 11,000 yards DD Oshio engages DD Tenedos at 11,000 yards CA Kasuga engages DD Vampire at 11,000 yards DD Tenedos engages DD Michishio at 11,000 yards Range closes to 10,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 10,000 yards DD Michishio engages DD Electra at 10,000 yards DD Tenedos engages DD Michishio at 10,000 yards BB Haruna engages DD Vampire at 10,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages CL Jintsu at 10,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 10,000 yards DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 10,000 yards DD Vampire engages DD Oshio at 10,000 yards DD Asashio engages DD Electra at 10,000 yards Range closes to 7,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages BB Kongo at 7,000 yards CA Niitaka engages DD Tenedos at 7,000 yards CA Kasuga engages DD Vampire at 7,000 yards DD Tenedos engages DD Hibiki at 7,000 yards BB Prince of Wales engages BB Haruna at 7,000 yards DD Arashio engages DD Electra at 7,000 yards DD Oshio engages DD Tenedos at 7,000 yards DD Michishio engages DD Tenedos at 7,000 yards Range closes to 6,000 yards DD Hibiki engages DD Electra at 6,000 yards CA Niitaka engages BB Prince of Wales at 6,000 yards DD Vampire engages DD Hibiki at 6,000 yards DD Akatsuki engages DD Tenedos at 6,000 yards DD Michishio engages DD Vampire at 6,000 yards Range increases to 7,000 yards BB Haruna engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards DD Hibiki engages DD Electra at 7,000 yards DD Hibiki engages DD Tenedos at 7,000 yards CA Kasuga engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards DD Vampire engages DD Hibiki at 7,000 yards DD Vampire engages DD Arashio at 7,000 yards DD Vampire engages DD Oshio at 7,000 yards BB Kongo engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards DD Oshio engages DD Tenedos at 7,000 yards CA Kasuga engages BB Prince of Wales at 7,000 yards DD Electra engages DD Arashio at 7,000 yards Task forces break off... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mdiehl -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 7:20:03 PM)
quote: CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 15,000 yards Range closes to 9,000 yards... No WW2 BB adm of the day in a meeting engagement of this kind (out in the open ocean) would have detected the enemy TF at 15,000 yards and closed the range, thereby steering into enemy torpedo water.

String -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 7:21:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mdiehl quote: CONTACT: Allies radar detects Japanese task force at 15,000 yards Range closes to 9,000 yards... No WW2 BB adm of the day in a meeting engagement of this kind (out in the open ocean) would have detected the enemy TF at 15,000 yards and closed the range, thereby steering into enemy torpedo water. The key words here are radar and night time. AFAIK all radar contacts required visual identification before opening fire.

FOW -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 7:34:35 PM)
I was just about to say yet another ridiculously short ranged surface combat - especially when BBs involved - then noticed the 'night time' element [8\|].............

SuluSea -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 7:53:13 PM)
Absolutely hilarious................... 152 torpedoes launched by the IJN in the Battle of the Java Sea and three struck home.

Nikademus -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 8:17:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: String The key words here are radar and night time. AFAIK all radar contacts required visual identification before opening fire. like Cape Matapan. [;)]

Shark7 -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 8:22:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SuluSea Absolutely hilarious................... 152 torpedoes launched by the IJN in the Battle of the Java Sea and three struck home. Yep, and I have 5 of 30 or so hit, all the CAs and DDs did fire at least one salvo of torpedoes...however, in this case, I just had them hit the right targets early in the battle, which turned the tide. Basically St. George was sunk without ever landing a hit on any ship, and PoW only managed a single, non-critical hit on Haruna with its 15" batteries. This is not a consistant thing, they usually all miss. This battle is the exception, not the rule. But in the case of this exception it had a very large effect on the outcome. That is what justifies the use of the Type 93. As far as closing to 2k yards...it does seems like a horribly short range, but this is a night engagement in 1941 (PoW and St George slipped past the Netties and made it all the way to Patani). Also, moonlight state is 57%...making it a relatively dark night. I really do wonder why most battles will end up taking place between 2-4k yards though.

spence -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 9:23:47 PM)
quote: but this is a night engagement in 1941 Yes indeed. Where the IJN has not fought a surface engagement against anyone since 1905 and the Royal Navy has only had two years of practice to get ready for this fight.

String -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 9:29:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SuluSea Absolutely hilarious................... 152 torpedoes launched by the IJN in the Battle of the Java Sea and three struck home. And at Savo they launched 31 and had 8 hits, your point?

Shark7 -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 10:00:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spence quote: but this is a night engagement in 1941 Yes indeed. Where the IJN has not fought a surface engagement against anyone since 1905 and the Royal Navy has only had two years of practice to get ready for this fight. Umm, its a game. 'nuff said.

mdiehl -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 10:12:58 PM)
quote: Yes indeed. Where the IJN has not fought a surface engagement against anyone since 1905 and the Royal Navy has only had two years of practice to get ready for this fight. Exactly. Doctrine and experience be damned. quote: Umm, its a game. 'nuff said. It's a consim, allegedly, strongly lacking the "sim" part.

Nomad -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 10:39:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mdiehl quote: Yes indeed. Where the IJN has not fought a surface engagement against anyone since 1905 and the Royal Navy has only had two years of practice to get ready for this fight. Exactly. Doctrine and experience be damned. quote: Umm, its a game. 'nuff said. It's a consim, allegedly, strongly lacking the "sim" part. Funny, Matrix lists it as a warGAME. Not a comsim. The last I looked, this is at the Matrix GAMES site 'nuff said?

Q-Ball -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 10:49:55 PM)
Small sample size here. All it proves is that Type 93s do a lot of damage when they hit something; with all the Long Lance debates, I don't think anyone ever disputed that they REALLY hurt.

SuluSea -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/18/2010 11:25:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: String quote: ORIGINAL: SuluSea Absolutely hilarious................... 152 torpedoes launched by the IJN in the Battle of the Java Sea and three struck home. And at Savo they launched 31 and had 8 hits, your point? I would imagine this battle would have taken place near the wars start. Savo happened 9 months after the war had started not to mention more open ocean to manuever in the South China Sea and Java Sea than the confined waters around Guadalcanal. The Java Sea engagement would be a better barometer to measure the events than anything happening around the 'canal later in the war. If you think different , that's your right.

Shark7 -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 2:05:17 AM)
No disagreement that the Type 93 hits hard and can have a major effect on a battle, which is more or less the point I was making. When they do hit, they have a noticeable effect. Granted, the majority of the time, they are going to miss. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, this is the exception, not the rule. But they do work, they can hit, and they do have a major impact when they hit. There are tons of debate threads where people complain about them not hitting enough...my riposte is that you only really need 1 to hit to have that major effect. They have a far greater effect than Allied torpedoes, and they do hit just about as often. It is a powerful tool, but one should not depend on them. And sorry guys, this is in fact a game. It attempts to simulate what COULD HAVE HAPPENED, not what did happen. People seem to forget that and complain loudly when the GAME does not mirror history. Do not expect historic results. Do not demand historic results. If you are unhappy with the results it is your choice to play or not. If you do not own the game (you know who you are), how can you possibly have an informed opinion about anything in the game? I pointed out something interesting and a very lopsided result in my combat report. I was just amazed to see how well it can go if the Long Lances hit and hit hard. Yet it seems I lit another forest fire with this thread...in retrospect, perhaps I should have kept it to myself.

Mynok -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 2:55:03 AM)
You didn't light any fires. You just attracted some trolls. Ignore them. I agree that this is an exceptional result. And an interesting one.

Dili -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 3:04:43 AM)
Well unless the British in desperate mission they would have avoided combat, they detected Japanese first so they could run away and the Japanese would not even know they were there, it is one of defects this game has. quote: like Cape Matapan. Don't understand, it was point blank range.

bklooste -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 3:21:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shark7 quote: ORIGINAL: SuluSea Absolutely hilarious................... 152 torpedoes launched by the IJN in the Battle of the Java Sea and three struck home. Yep, and I have 5 of 30 or so hit, all the CAs and DDs did fire at least one salvo of torpedoes...however, in this case, I just had them hit the right targets early in the battle, which turned the tide. Basically St. George was sunk without ever landing a hit on any ship, and PoW only managed a single, non-critical hit on Haruna with its 15" batteries. This is not a consistant thing, they usually all miss. This battle is the exception, not the rule. But in the case of this exception it had a very large effect on the outcome. That is what justifies the use of the Type 93. As far as closing to 2k yards...it does seems like a horribly short range, but this is a night engagement in 1941 (PoW and St George slipped past the Netties and made it all the way to Patani). Also, moonlight state is 57%...making it a relatively dark night. I really do wonder why most battles will end up taking place between 2-4k yards though. 1. Its easier to hit a BB esp with so few destroyers. 2. How can you miss at 2K yard 3. 5 of 30 is about right , many encounters had hit rates of 12% i think the highest was 25% . Java sea was mentioned but those torps were fired at a much longer range. 4. What is teh Speed of the UK BB , it looks like the Japanese ships have about 4 knts on the allies and would close regardless.

Shark7 -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 5:56:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bklooste quote: ORIGINAL: Shark7 quote: ORIGINAL: SuluSea Absolutely hilarious................... 152 torpedoes launched by the IJN in the Battle of the Java Sea and three struck home. Yep, and I have 5 of 30 or so hit, all the CAs and DDs did fire at least one salvo of torpedoes...however, in this case, I just had them hit the right targets early in the battle, which turned the tide. Basically St. George was sunk without ever landing a hit on any ship, and PoW only managed a single, non-critical hit on Haruna with its 15" batteries. This is not a consistant thing, they usually all miss. This battle is the exception, not the rule. But in the case of this exception it had a very large effect on the outcome. That is what justifies the use of the Type 93. As far as closing to 2k yards...it does seems like a horribly short range, but this is a night engagement in 1941 (PoW and St George slipped past the Netties and made it all the way to Patani). Also, moonlight state is 57%...making it a relatively dark night. I really do wonder why most battles will end up taking place between 2-4k yards though. 1. Its easier to hit a BB esp with so few destroyers. 2. How can you miss at 2K yard 3. 5 of 30 is about right , many encounters had hit rates of 12% i think the highest was 25% . Java sea was mentioned but those torps were fired at a much longer range. 4. What is teh Speed of the UK BB , it looks like the Japanese ships have about 4 knts on the allies and would close regardless. 1. No doubt, much less harrassing going on. 2. The wonders of WiTP...seems the BBs can't hit the broadside of a barn from inside of the barn with all the doors and windows shuttered. [8\|] 3. I've no complaints about the hit rate of the Long Lance, they don't hit every time, but when they do it hurts. 4. St. George (N3) 29 knts, PoW 28 knts. Relative parity with the Kongo class at 30 knts. AS far as the N3 Class goes, honestly everything about them was just blueprint...which is what I used to model them. Had they been built, who knows what performance they'd have had.

Shark7 -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 5:59:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili Well unless the British in desperate mission they would have avoided combat, they detected Japanese first so they could run away and the Japanese would not even know they were there, it is one of defects this game has. quote: like Cape Matapan. Don't understand, it was point blank range. Definately should have disengaged. However, there were also a large number of transports present, so one can see why you might press the attack. Plus St. George/PoW were actually more than a match for the 2 Kongo class, but there were too many escorts. I agree it should have disengaged, but the game decided to press the attack.

bklooste -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 7:34:26 AM)
Not sure if disengaging is an option ... It means only your rear guns can fire ( or you need to make turns which slow you and also make your firing inaccurate) and the Japanese ships will still be gaining on you at 6-10 Knots.

SuluSea -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 12:13:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mynok You didn't light any fires. You just attracted some trolls. Ignore them. I agree that this is an exceptional result. And an interesting one. The thread was free of insults until you responded. Well done.

bklooste -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 12:19:14 PM)
Thats not an insult...

SuluSea -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 12:26:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bklooste Thats not an insult... Whatever you say. [8\|]

Arimus -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 1:22:48 PM)
The problem is that there was only one (?) real life engagement between battleships at night at close range. A very small example pool to create a game around... Still, you would think that BB Captains would do everything they could to stay out of range of DD torpedoes! One thing that does seem a bit odd about WITP/AE is all the night encounters. The night encounters around Guadalcanal were mostly because the Japs could not operate in the day because of Henderson field. But this seems to have been applied to all naval combat. I had a mid-ocean engagement between old US BB's and Jap BB's around Wake and it was at night, why? Were WWII surface engagements mostly at night?

Nikademus -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 2:36:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dili Don't understand, it was point blank range. It didn't start out that way. Cunningham closed instead of disengaging.

Shark7 -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 2:46:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arimus The problem is that there was only one (?) real life engagement between battleships at night at close range. A very small�example pool to create a game around... Still, you would think that BB Captains would do everything they could to stay out of range of DD torpedoes! One thing that does seem a bit odd about WITP/AE is all the night encounters. The night encounters around Guadalcanal were mostly because the Japs could not operate in the day because of Henderson field. But this seems to have been applied to all naval combat. I had a mid-ocean engagement between old US BB's and Jap BB's around Wake and it was at night, why? Were WWII surface engagements mostly at night? Well there were only 2 instances of BBs facing off in the Pacific. The first was around Guadalcanal where 2 old Kongo's faced off against 2 modern US BBs, Washington and South Dakota IIRC. The end result was that South Dakaota was damamged, Washington undamaged, Kirishima scuttled after the battle, and Hiei sunk by aircraft the next day. Note none of the BBs managed to sink another BB. This was a fight in restricted waters with little ability to maneuver, so not a good example. The second surface action was Leyte Gulf...and well when you are in line ahead formation, moving through a narrow straight with the enemy having the T capped on the other side and no other choice but to keep going straight for thm...it's not a good example to base the game off of. So not only do we have a small sample size, we don't even have a 'blue water' example of open ocean surface combat to compare them to. If you look to the Battle of Savo Island, we get totally different result. Also, the early battles in the Java sea without BBs present also went wildly in Japanese favor. But these battles were also either open ocean without BBs present or in restricted waters, again without BBs present. And this is still not a large enough sample size to draw any conclusions from.

mike scholl 1 -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 3:21:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shark7 Well there were only 2 instances of BBs facing off in the Pacific. The first was around Guadalcanal where 2 old Kongo's faced off against 2 modern US BBs, Washington and South Dakota IIRC. The end result was that South Dakaota was damamged, Washington undamaged, Kirishima scuttled after the battle, and Hiei sunk by aircraft the next day. Note none of the BBs managed to sink another BB. This was a fight in restricted waters with little ability to maneuver, so not a good example. Not quite correct, Shark. Hiei went down after the 1st battle of Guadalcanal, a victim of cruiser and DD gunfire. Only Kirishima met the American BB's at 2nd Guadalcanal. Otherwise your points are valid.

Arimus -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 3:27:29 PM)
OK, lets look at two what-if's that could have ended up as BB engagements: 1 - Force Z vs the Malaya heavy covering force This assumes the British provide some LBA cover to fight off the bombers. 2. Task Force 34 vs Center Force This assumes Task Force 34 is formed and left to guard the strait. Personally, I think these would have been daylight engagements at range, more like the Hood vs Bismark rather than the naval Battle of Guadalcanal.

Dili -> RE: Long Lances... just, Wow. (3/19/2010 6:02:38 PM)
quote: It didn't start out that way. Cunningham closed instead of disengaging. Okay i didn't understand what you were trying to say. quote: Definately should have disengaged. However, there were also a large number of transports present, so one can see why you might press the attack. Yes but risk 2 BB in a night fight with a big numerical advantage from the enemy already alerted? The night, levels the BB value towards smaller ships, there isn't any more stand off range.

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