Specifically targetting private vessels? (Full Version)

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Gargantou -> Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/20/2010 10:09:04 PM)

I was wondering what are the benefits and cons of specifically targeting and attacking civilian vessels of other 'nations'?

I.e. passenger ships and the like?

Can it disrupt their spacelanes in a way that is beneficial to a war effort?



elliotg -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 12:19:14 AM)

Attacking civilian ships will definitely disrupt trade quite effectively. But often you don't even need to attack - the mere presence of enemy forces will drive civilian traffic away from a colony or mining station. You can also blockade colonies or bases with a fleet, and that stops trade of any kind.

Attacking some types of civilian ships will hurt your reputation: passenger ships and resort bases are considered unacceptable targets - you can attack them, but your reputation with other empires will take a hit.



Wade1000 -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 1:30:55 AM)

-In those cases, would our reputation still lower if the civilian ships we destroy are of a "bad guy"/ low reputation race?

I remember that it was stated that if you planetary bombard a low reputation race then your own reputation would not lower as greatly; depending I suppose on how low the reputation is of the targeted race.

-Do these sorts of positives and negatives apply also to the AI's?
-Do these elements affect the AI's decisions on whether THEY attack civillian ships?
-Do our automated military ships ever and bases ever decide to attack civilian ships and sites and decide to planetary bombard?



elliotg -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 4:01:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000
-In those cases, would our reputation still lower if the civilian ships we destroy are of a "bad guy"/ low reputation race?

I remember that it was stated that if you planetary bombard a low reputation race then your own reputation would not lower as greatly; depending I suppose on how low the reputation is of the targeted race.

Yes, blowing up passenger ships will always lower your reputation - regardless of the empire they belong to.

quote:


-Do these sorts of positives and negatives apply also to the AI's?

Yes, AI empires follow the same rules as you.

quote:


-Do these elements affect the AI's decisions on whether THEY attack civillian ships?

Yes, they'll evaluate whether to do this based on their personality and other factors

quote:


-Do our automated military ships ever and bases ever decide to attack civilian ships and sites and decide to planetary bombard?

If you fully automate attacks against your enemies and also automate your fleets, then they may decide to bombard an enemy or attack civilian ships, based on your race's personality.



Sarissofoi -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 7:01:19 AM)

Does player can use Pirate Ally to do this dirty work for him?

Also what bad reputation mean?
I can assume that all other empires will be hated my empire but how this affected dipomacy?
I mean if i bring terror(and total war) to my enemies but honor my aliances and pacts how this will affect my allies?
If they gonna hated me too? (Even if I saved their ass before and always honor deals) If they gonna backstab me on first occasion?
If other races will be afraid of me if I make total war against my enemies? How this affect trades or other diplomacy deals?

Be Hated or feared are two diffrent things.



Gertjan -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 8:27:19 AM)

So how would a blockade work in practise? Do you have to park your ships in a specific place? This doesn't involve destroying the civilian ships?



Wade1000 -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 10:50:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL:  elliotg
quote:

ORIGINAL:  Wade1000
-In those cases, would our reputation still lower if the civilian ships we destroy are of a "bad guy"/ low reputation race?
I remember that it was stated that if you planetary bombard a low reputation race then your own reputation would not lower as greatly; depending I suppose on how low the reputation is of the targeted race.

Yes, blowing up passenger ships will always lower your reputation - regardless of the empire they belong to.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
2. Bombard them back to the stone age - the more traditional "exterminate". If you choose this option, you had better be fighting against the most evil and urgent threat the galaxy has ever faced, or everyone else in the galaxy is likely to start viewing _you_ as the most evil and urgent threat the galaxy has ever faced. Typically, no other race in the galaxy likes to see planets being bombarded to rubble and will react accordingly lest the same fate befall their own worlds. Now if you really happen to be fighting an alien race that really has behaved in a way that makes everyone else in the galaxy hate them and consider them evil, you've got a much freer hand in how you deal with the problem.

Regards,

- Erik

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2402878&mpage=2&key=planetary%2Cbombardment�

It is odd that the factors of planetary bombardment affecting reputation are not the same as the factors affecting civilian ship destruction. If there is an ultimate "evil"/"bad guy"/low reputaion/ race(that maybe consumes or mass kills other people any chance they get) then I can planetary bombard them and my reputation is safe. Yet, if I destroy their civilian ships that are supporting their "evil" planets then my reputation gets lowered...odd. [&:]...[8|] 
I can see this issue arrising much throughout the future of posts after release. I think it will be wanted by many to be addressed in an update.



Duckfang -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 11:03:33 AM)

Bombing cities belonging to your enemy is largely an accepted part of war; sinking civilian cruise liners is not.

During the First World War whole towns were destroyed in the fighting on the Western Front, but it took the sinking of the RMS Lusitania by a German U-boat to turn public opinion in non-aligned countries against Germany.



Wade1000 -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 11:22:27 AM)

But that is between factions of the same race. If it involves the civilian ships of a race considered by many other races to be an ultimate "evil" race then it should be different.
quote:

In game genocide, via planetary bombardment and post conquest options, is not so negative when applied to space alien races of very extreme differences.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2391696 

I assumed that civilian ship destruction would be included in reputation factors in this implementation.

Regarding civilian ship destruction he said:
quote:

Yes, blowing up passenger ships will always lower your reputation - regardless of the empire they belong to.

Yet, regarding planetary bombardment he said:
quote:

...If you choose this option, you had better be fighting against the most evil and urgent threat the galaxy has ever faced, or everyone else in the galaxy is likely to start viewing _you_ as the most evil and urgent threat the galaxy has ever faced....
Now if you really happen to be fighting an alien race that really has behaved in a way that makes everyone else in the galaxy hate them and consider them evil, you've got a much freer hand in how you deal with the problem.



Duckfang -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 11:38:42 AM)

But a planet can have military value. It can contain factories for manufacturing military equipment, academies and barracks for training military personnel. That kind of stuff.

A civilian cruise liner is completely unrelated to any of that. Attacking an unarmed vessel that's floating around carrying civilians and doing civilian things is generally regarded as a pretty malicious thing to do. I'm not sure many empires would excuse you becoming the big evil by fighting the big evil.



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 12:05:17 PM)

I think stealth ships should be able to target passenger ships and resort bases and get away with it if not spottted.I am thinking a civ4 style privateers.



Wade1000 -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 12:08:44 PM)

If the "big evil" race civilian ships I destroy are like any of the following then my reputation should not be lowered with other races similiar to me.

Borg-like, Zerg-like(Starcraft), Flood-like(Halo), Tyranid-like(Warhammer 40,000), any various races like spiders,insects, or others similiar that are extremly different and hostile to us(like they eat us or do genocide against us), maybe like the Wraith of Stargate Atlantis, any robotic race that are extremly different and hostile to us(like they do genocide gainst us): maybe like Terminators and their Skynet AI leader, like Replicators of Stargate-SG1 TV series, and like Necrons of Warhammer 40,000.

Think of all the science fiction you know off involving those extremely different types of "evil" races. I think most of those stories involving total war includes destroying civilian ships with no resulting reputation loss.

Civilian ships of a "big evil" race that I destroy should be considered as a legitimate target in a total war. Other races similiar to mine should agree.
Civilian ships are large part of a space civilization economy that is supporting the military you are fighting; as are the planets.
Civilian ships could be carrying factory workers, scientists, soldiers, supllies, etcetera. There could be a group of scientists(or some sort of mind)on a civilian ship that may be close to creating a super weapon against your civilization.

But yeah, civilian ships on historic, real life earth involving our one race, being targeted is generally viewed as bad.



Deto -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 6:39:35 PM)

I doubt races like zerg, flood, tyrannids or machines like replicators, necrons and terminators have any kind of "section" one could call civilian. They're all bred and created for sole purpose of destruction. Loading troops to civilian luxory cruiser would be about the same as loading troops to troop transport and killing them wouldn't be an issue. Also none of those 'races' would be in anyway appealing as space faring race for game like this.

If there's a race that can't do anything else than maim, kill, burn, murder, slaughter etc, I doubt they'd make you loose reputation from mopping their asses :)

//

Yeah we can't compare humans to humans, but imagine situation where soldiers went to a zoo and beat crap out of young lion cups just for the kicks. Not the same, but more related at least :D



Husker50 -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/21/2010 9:27:01 PM)

I believe targeting civilian ships should lower your reputation.
There is no HONOR in destroying defenseless civilian ships.

Also consider this; maybe all those civilians are not of the same race.
You could be destroying neutrals as well.



Wade1000 -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/22/2010 12:58:28 AM)

To clarify, I agree in regards to if the targeted civilian/trade ships are of a high reputation race then that should lower your reputation. If the targeted civilian/trade ships are of a low reputation race then your own reputation should not lower, or it should lower very little.

Total war including civilian/trade ship destruction, planetary bombardment, and planetary genocide options, against low reputation races that are out to annihilate and commit TOTAL genocide upon your entire civilization and others should NOT lower your reputation; or it should lower very little.



Gargantou -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/22/2010 11:12:41 AM)

An eye for an eye(as in if a nation targets your civilian population, then you target theirs) should still lead to a lowered reputation, after all it does in the real world.



ypsylon -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/22/2010 3:18:38 PM)

Can you defend civilian shipping if you are faction not at war with faction attacking civilians? (let's call it humanitarian help)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Husker50
There is no HONOR in destroying defenseless civilian ships.


Ultimate truth, brother.[:)]



Puhis -> RE: Specifically targetting private vessels? (3/22/2010 3:22:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ypsylon

Can you defend civilian shipping if you are faction not at war with faction attacking civilians? (let's call it humanitarian help)



Or let's call it slukenitarian help!



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