RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (Full Version)

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ckammp -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 2:03:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

According to Gray,
digital download ,updates/patch, pbem I guess one could say Matrix requires internet connection ......[X(]



When Rome:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, installed it, and have been playing it ever since. No internet connection required.

When Medieval II:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, installed it, and have been playing it ever since. No internet connection required.

When Empire:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, couldn't install it, couldn't play it. Why? Internet connection with Steam required.

When I purchases a product, I expect to be able to use and enjoy the product when I choose to do so, without having to ask a 2nd party for permission first. And yes, I am aware of the "offline" option with Steam; I don't care, the fact I am forced to use Steam to play a game I purchased elsewhere means I will not purchase any products from companies using Steam.

As for Matrix, yes an internet connection is required, because Matrix is an on-line company. But once the game is purchased, I can play any time I choose. That's why I will continue to purchase games from Matrix.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 2:38:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

According to Gray,
digital download ,updates/patch, pbem I guess one could say Matrix requires internet connection ......[X(]



When Rome:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, installed it, and have been playing it ever since. No internet connection required.

When Medieval II:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, installed it, and have been playing it ever since. No internet connection required.

When Empire:Total War was released, I purchased the game in a store, took it home, couldn't install it, couldn't play it. Why? Internet connection with Steam required.

When I purchases a product, I expect to be able to use and enjoy the product when I choose to do so, without having to ask a 2nd party for permission first. And yes, I am aware of the "offline" option with Steam; I don't care, the fact I am forced to use Steam to play a game I purchased elsewhere means I will not purchase any products from companies using Steam.

As for Matrix, yes an internet connection is required, because Matrix is an on-line company. But once the game is purchased, I can play any time I choose. That's why I will continue to purchase games from Matrix.

Yes - and in the Total War instance that is a form of DRM (required to register the game with Steam) - but a constant connection is not required to play. So yes, when you buy a physical product, and it requires you authenticate it with Steam, then I agree that it is a form DRM.

Buying a game from Steam is simply buying from an online store though. You need an account to buy and download the game...that in itself isn't really DRM. If it required you to connect each time, then I would agree. But it doesn'tas far as I'm aware.



joeblack1862 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 3:42:39 PM)

I very rarely post on these forums but do read read them regularly.

I hope this is not too off topic but I just had to add what happened to me only yesterday with Steam (delete this post if it is):

I bought the game yesterday via Paypal and right at the end of the transaction a message came up to say that there was an issue and contact Steam Support. So I did the following:

1. Checked the My Games tab - no game.
2. Checked my bank account - the money has been deducted!
3. Checked Paypal - detailed invoice shows the money has been transferred from my bank account to Steam and the transaction is completed!
4. Raised a ticket with Steam Support and provided the unique id and invoice id, date and time of purchase provided by Paypal.
5. Raised a dispute with Paypal, this is at the "Talk to the Seller" stage, it has not been escalated. I did this because there is a time limit and Paypal recommends raising the dipute the minute the problem occurs.

I was hoping to play this game over the weekend, was looking forward to it. So now how long will I have to wait......

I dropped a message on to the Steam forums and was told not to escalate the paypal dispute as Steam would disable my account and all my games... how crass is that. I checked the forum and this had indeed happened to someone else.

Other companies where I have had this issue (Gamers Gate, Amazon for MP3 for example) had resolved a similar issues within a couple of hours. I think they realise that taking someone's money and then not providing the goods is pretty poor.

In my opinion, this makes Steam an even worse form of DRM as it can prevent you from playing a game or games without you having any say.

I guess I have learnt my lesson.

(I hope this isn't coming over as too harsh, just annoyed. I probably haven't given them enough time to be fair)



JudgeDredd -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 4:26:44 PM)

Have you got a link to the forum where you were told not to escalate it or they'd disable your games? I'm not saying it didn't happen...on the contrary I want proof it did happen so that I can make a decision not to buy their games again. I refuse to buy from a company who comes across as heavy handed and if they did indeed say that to you, then I would consider never buying from them again. I just wouldn't feel comfotable buying from a company that hit you with a stick when you had a grievance

I've heard "stories" of these kinds of things taking place, but never saw them first hand. I've seldom gone on the Steam forums.

Again...a link and I can see for myself a company accused of bullying and then I can put them on my "not to buy from" list

I would like to point out that whilst your case is obviously valid, Steam, like any other company, is not immune to online purchasing issues. As much as I love Matrix and their games, there is a guy right now having issues trying to buy Distant Worlds (a couple of people actually)...so it happens to the best of companies. I also understand your grievance...nothing like buying a game to play and finding out you don't have it...especially at the weekend, but again I have to point out that I personally have never had an issue buying/downloading a game from Steam. That definitely doesn't mean it doesn't happen and that it won't happen to me in the future.



joeblack1862 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 4:43:21 PM)

Hi,

Sure, here it is:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1203859

As I was told on my own thread, if you escalate the Paypal dispute it will get your account disabled. Here is my thread, I am trying to be calm in it:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1205750

It appears they take your money and then have an issue with Paypal. If you take your money back they disable the account because they think it is fraud or something like that. I am not sure if it is bullying or just poor design of the way they do Paypal.

This just raises the point that the control of your account, and therefore access to your games is not with you. They can cut you off when they like. So it's a sort of morphing DRM. As someone else said, you never own your games on steam.

If you want, I'll keep you informed how I get on. I have to say the guys on the forum have been good, no flames just informative answers.



Zakhal -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 6:32:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe Black
I very rarely post on these forums but do read read them regularly.

I hope this is not too off topic but I just had to add what happened to me only yesterday with Steam (delete this post if it is):


If the problem happened just yesterday aka friday and today is saturday..well you have hardly waited for 24 hours and its weekend.

Last time I had problems buying games was from regural gamestore through postal service. Problem was that the english postal service went to strike and they threw the postal sack that included my game into the north sea.

I waited for month to get the game and then several more days to get my money back through customer service. I never got angry over it because I had to wait more than few hours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe Black
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1205750


Just few comments from the thread:

quote:

You'll need to tell Paypal to reimburse Valve for the amount of DOW2. Once done, Valve will reactivate your account. This is a Paypal issue more than anything.


quote:

I bought all my games via paypal and nothing went wrong and I have 50 games.


quote:

Paypal took the money from your account and most likely delayed the payment. When you escalated your issue with Paypal, they withdrew the payment and Valve disabled your account temporarily in case it was fraud.

So you have to tell Paypal to actually pay Valve the amount you specified. Once done, they will reactivate your account.

I myself link my Paypal account to my bank account, so I never get such issues.


quote:

To them, they didn't receive the money, so it's not their problem to solve that issue. When they finally received it from Paypal, it got withdrawn. In order to protect the consumer, it disables the account.

Its entirely rational as it helps prevent fraud from hacked accounts.



joeblack1862 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 6:46:15 PM)

You missed the bit I said at the bottom of that post [:)]

"(I hope this isn't coming over as too harsh, just annoyed. I probably haven't given them enough time to be fair) "

But thanks for the input, you are right ofcourse, so I will see what happens. Don't want to take this off topic any further.



Greybriar -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 6:51:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greybriar


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I'm not entirely sure Steam is a method of DRM. I can play my Steam games offline...so there is no need to be connected afaik.

Wrong. Steam requires an Internet connection (broadband recommended).



Simply not true............[8|]


How many times are we going to go over this ?

Yes, it is true. I was referring to Steam being a DRM, as in the need for Steam to be installed before you can play a retail boxed game, e.g. Empire: Total War.



Zakhal -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 6:52:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe Black

You missed the bit I said at the bottom of that post [:)]

"(I hope this isn't coming over as too harsh, just annoyed. I probably haven't given them enough time to be fair) "


No problem. I work partly in online customer service. I somtimes deal with very angry customers so Im keen on the importance of patience in cases like this.

Im sure your case gets solved once you give it a little time. If not then please inform us so we know the dangers of buying from steam with paypal.



joeblack1862 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 7:32:23 PM)

I hope you don't mind if I add my own opinion on what is DRM. I always look at it as something that prevents you from installing or playing a game without additional actions or software that is not required for the game to work correctly and is designed to prevent the bulk copying and distribution of the game by others. This doesn't mean all DRM is bad.

Starforce, Tages, Securom etc. is DRM - you have to install the drivers to get the game to work.
Steam is DRM - You need it to install the games, you cannot install with an interenet connection to Steam.
Gamers gate is DRM - The game is "activated" when it is installed via gamers gate. You cannot install without an internet connection to GG.
Matrix is DRM - you need to supply a serial number to install the game (painless process and the best option for the user (other than no serial))
GOG is not DRM - dowload the files and you can install and play again and again. No requirements but to have the installation files.

For me, it's the way DRM is implemented that is the issue, not the DRM itself.

Starforce, Tages, Securom etc. - Never on my system.
Steam - I'll put up with it (as long as they process my orders correctly [;)])
Gamers gate - No problem with this.
Matrix - No problem.

I should add I only buy "DRM Free" games from Steam and Gamers Gate as a lot of the stuff they sell can also come with Securom, Tages, Starforce.



NefariousKoel -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 7:49:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Buying a game from Steam is simply buying from an online store though. You need an account to buy and download the game...that in itself isn't really DRM. If it required you to connect each time, then I would agree. But it doesn'tas far as I'm aware.


Steam is DRM, plain and simple.

It also prevents you from selling/trading your game in a secondary market. Games that require Steam to run has an online requirement to tie it to your account. That's DRM. In that example, you're also required to install a program that runs in the background and requires the use of the internet while leaving a potential security hole open. In some cases it restricts modifications of the files.

I've seen some die-hard defenders of Steam and they seem as brainwashed as a Jonestown citizen. I don't think you're quite one of those, but when I see them start championing how their patches are automatically downloaded, I can only [8|] at how much of the Kool-Aid they've drank. The down sides are often justified because they've "never had a problem with it" though I've seen many who've changed their tune after they did and their blinders came off.



Arctic Blast -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 10:09:54 PM)

This discussion again? Really?

Some people don't like any DRM, and that's fine. Some are willing to accept certain brands of it, and that's fine. Some flat out don't care, and that's fine.

The original poster makes a nice statement of appreciation, but that once again is transformed in to yet another back and forth between the same people with the same positions on the same thing. Utterly pointless.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/27/2010 11:24:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast
...but that once again is transformed in to yet another back and forth between the same people with the same positions on the same thing. Utterly pointless.

lol Arctic. At least you showed some use of the auld noggin.

I hang my head in shame at taking part in another "Steam was made by the devil" - "Steam was made by God" debate [&o]



warspite1 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 9:37:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

This discussion again? Really?

Some people don't like any DRM, and that's fine. Some are willing to accept certain brands of it, and that's fine. Some flat out don't care, and that's fine.

The original poster makes a nice statement of appreciation, but that once again is transformed in to yet another back and forth between the same people with the same positions on the same thing. Utterly pointless.

Warspite1

Thank-you to everyone who bothered to answer my very newbie question about what a DRM is (I thought I may get laughed at for not knowing!!).

You may have found this thread utterly pointless Arctic Blast - sorry about that - but I for one found it useful thanks to the posters who tried to assist. If its been covered before, well, sorry about that too.....



Arctic Blast -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 9:53:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

This discussion again? Really?

Some people don't like any DRM, and that's fine. Some are willing to accept certain brands of it, and that's fine. Some flat out don't care, and that's fine.

The original poster makes a nice statement of appreciation, but that once again is transformed in to yet another back and forth between the same people with the same positions on the same thing. Utterly pointless.

Warspite1

Thank-you to everyone who bothered to answer my very newbie question about what a DRM is (I thought I may get laughed at for not knowing!!).

You may have found this thread utterly pointless Arctic Blast - sorry about that - but I for one found it useful thanks to the posters who tried to assist. If its been covered before, well, sorry about that too.....


Really wasn't directed at you, Warspite, and apologies if you thought it was. You asked a legitimate question and were just looking for answers.

It just that it always tends to boil down to the same people shouting the same points at each other whenever someone does try to have an actual discussion on the topic.



Sarge -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 6:18:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast
The original poster makes a nice statement of appreciation, but that once again is transformed in to yet another back and forth between the same people with the same positions on the same thing. Utterly pointless.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast
It just that it always tends to boil down to the same people shouting the same points at each other whenever someone does try to have an actual discussion on the topic.



Ok……… I’ll bite


The original subject ’n point indeed was well deserved , one look at the my “joined” date shows I’m in agreement .

What I don’t get though is why you feel need to jump in and point out to everyone how “Utterly pointless” the subject and opinions being expressed are , no one was rude/shouting till you decided this thread wasn’t to your likening .

I don’t believe any thread stays on the original subject here in the general forum, but isn’t that the point…. ?

Talk about going off topic………[8|]



Obsolete -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 6:41:59 PM)

quote:

Starforce, Tages, Securom etc. - Never on my system.


I had a very terrible experience with Securom that took me days before I could get my title to work.  I had to spend many hours pouring over many forums, and checking with others who had the same problem.  Then talking to tech support, where I was given some generic answere as to it "must be a defective CD" and exchange it back at the store (where have I heard this excuse before?!)

Left to no options, I did that, yet my game still did not in stall.  Complained to tech support again, then I was notified the problem was most likely my DVD Drive now!  Apparently not all DVD readers are made by the same manufacturer (well no sh*t), and some do not work 100% reliability with securom (how convenient!).

I was not that desperate to run off again and purchase new hardware to solve a problem, when I knew that this also may not work either.

I spent another 2 days reading everything from bit-torrent to game-cracking.  Finally I found a nice site with many cracks, and thankfully it was all legit.  End of story, after going through hell and teaching myself a little bit about hacking games, I finally got my product to run. 

If Firaxis ends up using this again for Civ 5, I just don't see myself purchasing this and going through hell all over again.  Still same DVD drive here, so I'm going to need a crack regardless.  But this leaves a good question in the air, if I have to crack this title, what incentive is there for people to purchase the title in the first place?

To be honest, that is a very good question!  Perhaps someone could forward that inquiry to the Suits in management as I'd like to know myself.





SuluSea -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 6:43:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge




The original subject ’n point indeed was well deserved , one look at the my “joined” date shows I’m in agreement .

What I don’t get though is why you feel need to jump in and point out to everyone how “Utterly pointless” the subject and opinions being expressed are , no one was rude/shouting till you decided this thread wasn’t to your likening .

I don’t believe any thread stays on the original subject here in the general forum, but isn’t that the point…. ?

Talk about going off topic………[8|]



In complete agreement.


Arctic-

I'm not trying to pile on but if DRM screws up my PC I'm going to let people know about it at every opportunity so they don't get burned as well. If that ruffles a feather I can't help that, put me and other offenders on ignore if it's that bothersome.



joeblack1862 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 7:00:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

quote:

Starforce, Tages, Securom etc. - Never on my system.


But this leaves a good question in the air, if I have to crack this title, what incentive is there for people to purchase the title in the first place?

To be honest, that is a very good question!  Perhaps someone could forward that inquiry to the Suits in management as I'd like to know myself.



I am not being funny but the answer for me is simply that it is the right thing to do. If a game has securom on it then I don't play it, I don't install it. I don't own it (unless I bought it without realising).

A couple of examples. I wanted Bioshock 2 so bad, but then it came out with Securom. It will be cracked if it hasn't already but I have taken it off my list until a DRM Free version comes out (long wait I know). That's it.

I bought one of my favorite games, Rail Tychoon 3 on steam (no securom etc, just steam). It was only patched to 1.4. Version 1.5 has some extras that are worth having. So I took the 1.5 patch and applied it, play it outside steam. I still bought the game.

Sid Meiers Railroads. I bought that from GG. I installed it and put the Securom virus on my system. My fault. I irridicated it from my HD and have never installed the game since (RT3 is better anyway). Nor looked for a torrent of it.

By downloading torrents and installing games I don't own I will get bitten on the arse one day by the cracker or the provider installing a trojen etc. AND, I would not feel right about it anyway.

So many games out there, no problem finding another one to play. [:)]



Arctic Blast -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 10:00:14 PM)

My apologies, guys. Had a bit of a bad day yesterday, and that obviously transferred over to here. Sorry about that.

Do I welcome an actual discussion about DRM? Sure. It's just that all too often, said discussion seems to eventually boil down to battle lines practically being drawn and rhetoric spewed, and all semblance of discussion is completely lost. Hopefully that doesn't happen here. [:)]



Southernland -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 10:30:02 PM)

The Steam/empire totalwar combination is a totaldog.  The game is months old, fully patched and I'm still having oddball "lack of video memory" CTDs on a regular basis yet will need a full uninstall/reregistration/redownload/reinstall on a newer computer to see if there's a difference between machines that will resolve the issues.  Steam itself seems to have added 30-40 seconds to my startup time, in itself not a long time but maybe adding 30% to my startup for absolutely no benefit to me.  I've had the game for a week and I'm sick of it already... given a realworld situation I'd flick it off for a few bucks but because we're living in steam world I've only "leased" it in all its gloriousness so it'll gather dust and maybe stop coffee rings on my computer desk



joeblack1862 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 11:12:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
Im sure your case gets solved once you give it a little time. If not then please inform us so we know the dangers of buying from steam with paypal.


Steam has come back to me this evening, apologised and my money has been refunded. They said I can go ahead and purchase the game again if I wished. They recommended I carried out the purchase through the browser rather than the Steam app so there must be an issue there with Paypal transactions maybe? I thought this might be useful info for others to know.

I think I will use CC this time though! [:D]

Zakhal, thank you, I took your advice and shutup and waited and all went well.

The silver lining on the Cloud? I played Distant Worlds instead, what a game!





JudgeDredd -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 11:25:38 PM)

I don't understand the issue with Steam and Paypal...unless it's a new issue. I buy all of my Steam games using Paypal. Maybe it's been introduced in their new software (don't they have a BETA version out?)

Glad you got your dosh back, though I rather suspect you'd have preferred to be playing this weekend [:D]



joeblack1862 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 11:31:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I don't understand the issue with Steam and Paypal...unless it's a new issue. I buy all of my Steam games using Paypal. Maybe it's been introduced in their new software (don't they have a BETA version out?)

Glad you got your dosh back, though I rather suspect you'd have preferred to be playing this weekend [:D]


Cheers JD, but then I wouldn't have got to play Distant Worlds [:)] so not all bad.

I think I may divert my cash to another matrix game, I can't say I am a big steam fan anyway. I tend to buy from them what I can't get elsewhere. Or in the last failed purchase I was looking at saving $6....



ilovestrategy -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 11:42:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I'm not entirely sure Steam is a method of DRM. I can play my Steam games offline...so there is no need to be connected afaik.



Exactly. I can play all of my single player games on Steam in offline mode, which I always do on the laptop because I'm without internet a lot on it. I like Steam for the same reason like I like Matrix. No CD needed to play.



GoodGuy -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/28/2010 11:53:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I'm not entirely sure Steam is a method of DRM. I can play my Steam games offline...so there is no need to be connected afaik.


Exactly. I can play all of my single player games on Steam in offline mode, which I always do on the laptop because I'm without internet a lot on it. I like Steam for the same reason like I like Matrix. No CD needed to play.


Good point. But Steam still is a platform that can employ (and enforce) ANY DRM (unlike a pure digital distribution platform like say direct2drive or even Digital River), if the developer/publisher decides to go with a more restrictive copy protection, at any given point, this could even be enforced after the initial purchase/download.
Example: If a publisher feels that there are too many illegal copies floating around, significantly affecting sales, then they could enforce the mandatory use of a system like the one UBI seems to be using right now, for one or another game (which requires a permanent connection to the interent), via Steam-update.
So I think you could call Steam a DRM launch platform, at least, if there's such a word. [:)]



warspite1 -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/29/2010 2:54:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

My apologies, guys. Had a bit of a bad day yesterday, and that obviously transferred over to here. Sorry about that.

Do I welcome an actual discussion about DRM? Sure. It's just that all too often, said discussion seems to eventually boil down to battle lines practically being drawn and rhetoric spewed, and all semblance of discussion is completely lost. Hopefully that doesn't happen here. [:)]

Warspite1

No probs Arctic Blast - we`ve all had those sort of days [;)]



Widell -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/29/2010 6:38:17 PM)

While I realize I'm entering the holy wars here, I must still state that the comment "Steam still is a platform that can employ (and enforce) ANY DRM" still does not make Steam a DRM as was suggested earlier. Steam is distributing software, and the software may have different DRM's. Then Steam itself has an element of DRM to it just as Matrix has in their (very user friendly and hassle free and my favorite etc. Just to make my standpoint clear on that part[;)])

Then, whether you think Steam s*cks for different reasons, or you think it's OK or incredible or whatever is a different issue, but technically Matrix could also "employ (and enforce) ANY DRM" but they, thankfully, choose not to.

OK, taking cover for the inevitable (?) [sm=sterb003.gif][sm=00000106.gif]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/29/2010 10:49:22 PM)

Just as a reminder guys, this forum is not for bashing other resellers, publishers (or developers). Constructive criticism is perfectly acceptable, but let's keep things civil. If you really want to vent your spleen at another company, I suggest sending your comments directly to them to make sure they get them.

Many of our customers (and many of us) use these other resellers and publishers and like their games, so let's keep that in mind if you have criticisms to share.

On a more positive note, thank you for the vote of confidence in our serial number system. We at Matrix feel pretty strongly about this too and we are not in favor of more restrictive DRM systems. You have also confirmed our own beliefs and shown us that it's possible to trust your customers and have them return the favor with good sales and trust in return. We hope that never changes.



ilovestrategy -> RE: Thank you Matrix, for no DRM (3/30/2010 12:24:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


You have also confirmed our own beliefs and shown us that it's possible to trust your customers and have them return the favor with good sales and trust in return. We hope that never changes.



Oh, you can count me in there Erik. [&o]



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