RE: Gamey or Not? (Full Version)

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rader -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/29/2010 8:34:45 PM)

Thanks for the info on the word origin; I had no idea where it came from.

I certainly agree that as your example illustrates, the extremely gamey stuff should be ruled out, and I was quite happy to do so. And I agree that the most important thing is not only to ensure that you play within the rules, but that both sides are happy with the manner in which the game is being played (especially for something as long as WITP). Moreover, I think this loophole should be brought to the attention of the designers in order that it is changed. Anyone want to volunteer or where should I post it?

What I'm saying is that I prefer rules to be as comprehensive as possible. I don't think it is sufficient to say "don't do things that are gamey", because even as we've seen here, peoples' opinions on what qualifies vary a lot. If something is extremely "gamey", it should be discussed and ruled upon by the players if it is something that was missed by the designer. And I do think some discretion is necessary. I think, for example, it was possible in the original WITP to change the command of the static West Coast forts and have them magically appear in Karachi 60 days later. I didn't consider sailing up the river without activation to be in that league. But my opponent did, and clearely a large number of you did as well. In fact, in retrospect after having thought about it, I tend to agree. That's fine, and I'm more than happy to incorporate a HR that dissalows it.

Anyway, we've probably beaten this to death, but thanks to everyone for contributing, and I appreciate the civil discussion. (I'm not saying people shouldn't post more if they want to, I just don't want to offend anyone by my continuing to rant...)




HexHead -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/29/2010 9:54:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jzanes

I'm the allies and it's May 1942. For the last few weeks, I've suspected my PBEM opponent plans to attack Russia... What do you think? Gamey or ok and why?

OP Pic embedded


Counterexample: If the US had detected the KB on 6 Dec 41 about 300 miles off Oahu in a combat posture, that alone is a casus belli.

Yes, very gamey - it would be like putting 3 CTFs in Corpus and exercising 22 miles off Vera Cruz. Calderon would be on the horn in 5 minutes.



ChickenOfTheSea -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/29/2010 10:32:11 PM)

In a game this complex, there are always things that were unforeseen in developing rules and programming code. I always liked El Cid's definition of gamey in WITP-RHS. It it's physically, militarily, or politically impossible then it is definitely gamey.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/29/2010 11:15:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

What I'm saying is that I prefer rules to be as comprehensive as possible.




While I think most players would agree with you..., I'm not sure many would even try to read 10,000 pages of rules before diving in. You seem a decent and reasonable fellow, so please don't take anything I've said as a personal comment. It's just that the nature of the beast requires all of us to stop and think and say to ourselves "I know the rules don't prevent me from doing this.., but I don't know why they don't prevent it, because it's rediculous." That will solve 98% of all gamey-ness.

Have a good one... [:)]



PresterJohn001 -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/29/2010 11:37:41 PM)

Its almost as absurd as the entire German army massing on the Russian border and launching a successful suprise attack.

What Russian commander is going to risk Stalins fury by initiating a war with Japan in May 1942?

Just because it is improbable or didn't happen, especially with political matters which witp ae does not simulate at all well, doesn't mean under the right
circumstances it couldn't happen.

What really matters is what the players of this game want and are happy with. Its a balance of playing within the rulesand the spirit of your particular game
and opponent. Its a long term commitment for both sides so its very important you get it right.

For the record i'd not do it as the Japanese, but i'd not attack Russia either, if i was an allied player and the Japanese player did this i'd probably laugh
and think bring it on :)




witpqs -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/29/2010 11:49:54 PM)

Actually I think it is far more absurd than the German surprise attack on the Soviet Union.

Anyway, it's not something "allowed by the rules", it is just something that is not mechanically prevented due to limitations in the game engine.

It is entirely up to the players. You can spell out any rules you want. Thousands if you want to, or just go with something like "Be realistic". It's up to the players of each match to reach consensus.

Your contest, your call.



PaxMondo -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/30/2010 2:11:26 AM)

Well, whatever.  The REALLY good news is that they are going to play this.  I am really exited to watch this play out.  Thanks guys for taking this on.[&o]



rader -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/30/2010 5:08:41 PM)

Jason already has a game report. I think I might start one too once the battle begins. Take up the torch from Seydlitz.




USS Henrico -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/30/2010 11:51:51 PM)

quote:

Counterexample: If the US had detected the KB on 6 Dec 41 about 300 miles off Oahu in a combat posture, that alone is a casus belli.


But the USS Nimitz did detect the KB on 12/6/41, off the coast of Pearl Harbor. Even after the Zeros blew up a US flagged ship and attacked the Tomcats, Kirk Douglas refused to start the war until PH was attacked. [:D]



sdevault -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/30/2010 11:55:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS Henrico

quote:

Counterexample: If the US had detected the KB on 6 Dec 41 about 300 miles off Oahu in a combat posture, that alone is a casus belli.


But the USS Nimitz did detect the KB on 12/6/41, off the coast of Pearl Harbor. Even after the Zeros blew up a US flagged ship and attacked the Tomcats, Kirk Douglas refused to start the war until PH was attacked. [:D]


He had 'em in the air....



findmeifyoucan -> RE: Gamey or Not? (3/31/2010 12:20:34 AM)

Whatever, if he wants to activate the Russians early??? as the Americans I would be laughing all the way to the bank. Yeah, the fleet should never be able to get out and get blown to bits by air power and CD defence units.
Designers can't cover everything silly that people might think of doing. LOL



Jzanes -> RE: Gamey or Not? (4/2/2010 4:09:33 AM)

The invasion of russia has begun. See either of our AARs if you are curious as to what happened after we sorted out this issue.



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