RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (Full Version)

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John Lansford -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 10:42:28 AM)

IIRC, Tennessee took one or two 6" hits off of Saipan that disabled a twin 5" secondary mount and killed some sailors.  The ship pulled out of the firing line for an hour or so to fight a fire, and then returned to provide fire support for the men ashore.  



Dili -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 2:59:28 PM)

Your points about Saipan i have nothing to say since i didn't researched the Saipan Islands defense, but when i said reverse slope it is enough a hole in the ground also for example there is no way a ship can detect a flashless gun at night if everyone is firing.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 3:35:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

IIRC, Tennessee took one or two 6" hits off of Saipan that disabled a twin 5" secondary mount and killed some sailors.  The ship pulled out of the firing line for an hour or so to fight a fire, and then returned to provide fire support for the men ashore.  


I didn't know that. Good info.

I don't doubt that, especially on D-Day, there is shore fire and some of it should be directed at landing ships/craft. We've discussed it in other threads, especially the PH one. But there's a difference between an "old", large, integrated-FC CD establishment like PH, Corrigedor, or Singapore, and the various smaller islands the Japanese tried to build up during the war. Losing 2.5 BBs, and scores of landing ships, is a code artifact, not something that was possible in RL. As the oral history I posted says, 30+ LSTs unlaoded about 5000 yds. off the beach at Saipan, and none were sunk, let alone dozens.

In any future CD coding in a new game, we need several shore bombarment models to handle the various CD dispersal zones, defender prep-times, degrees of elevation ashore, size of the landing beaches, etc. We also need to be able to more finely control the bombardment ships, at least as much as we can STFs. Setting the acceptable risks as we can for moving TFs would help a lot. Right now, I'm not sure as a player how offshore range fits in, or even if it does. As an example.

I think bombardment as a general case was an afterthought by GG and the original design team, who were much more into airplanes. While it wasn't definitive in many PTO battles, it was a big contributor to attack results at islands like Kwajalein, where it was very effective at suppressing defenses and shell-shocking defenders. On the flip side, most CD units on islands were directed at landing craft and the beach itself, not offshore BBs. This almost calls for special CD beachhead attack phases separate from the approach and landing of the assault craft, in the land resolution model.

Maybe someday.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 3:40:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Your points about Saipan i have nothing to say since i didn't researched the Saipan Islands defense, but when i said reverse slope it is enough a hole in the ground also for example there is no way a ship can detect a flashless gun at night if everyone is firing.


Well, a hole in the ground is easy pickings for CAS, right? As I said, a lot of Saipan is pretty flat. There were defenses in caves, some with steel doors, but they weren't high up in mountains, a la Iwo Jima. Most were in what could charitablly be called hills or small ridges.

I agree night spotting was nigh on impossible in WWII. That's one reason the current bombardment model is so ahistoric--USN bombardments generally weren't at night, and weren't a few hours long. Saipan's intense prep was over two days, and there had been harassment raids and mini-bombardments as long previously as February 1944. Invasion bombardments weren't in&out dashes as in the game. And they used previous aerial recon a great deal to pre-register targets.



Whisper -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 3:48:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I may, if I can figure out how, also try to make the sub torpedo tube code work. If I have to hand-change every sub hull by bumping the device list down I don't thnk I'm up for that. If I can do it by class, I would be. Or I might just do it for the later war boats.

Already been done. download is posted at http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2347573&mpage=1?

quote:

Mod is now available for all scenarios s01, s02, s06, s07, s08, s09 if you follow the step-by-step instructions contained in the zip file.




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 7:20:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whisper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I may, if I can figure out how, also try to make the sub torpedo tube code work. If I have to hand-change every sub hull by bumping the device list down I don't thnk I'm up for that. If I can do it by class, I would be. Or I might just do it for the later war boats.

Already been done. download is posted at http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2347573&mpage=1?

quote:

Mod is now available for all scenarios s01, s02, s06, s07, s08, s09 if you follow the step-by-step instructions contained in the zip file.




I "think" I can follow all that. Thanks.

So me, being a novice with the editor, can do what these instrucitons say, and the resulting new submarine devices will, by hull number, all shift so the tubes are split? And that config will then "talk to" the changes in the executable inserted into Patch 3 so the turn logic won't fire full salvoes when they're not needed?

And, finally, I can make these changes to subs in a new re-numbered scenario, and THEN do whatever further surgery to that re-numbered scenario I want to do re PP point accumulaiton rates, CD gun tube numbers, etc, and play with the old AI scripts?



JWE -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 7:43:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I "think" I can follow all that. Thanks.

So me, being a novice with the editor, can do what these instrucitons say, and the resulting new submarine devices will, by hull number, all shift so the tubes are split? And that config will then "talk to" the changes in the executable inserted into Patch 3 so the turn logic won't fire full salvoes when they're not needed?

And, finally, I can make these changes to subs in a new re-numbered scenario, and THEN do whatever further surgery to that re-numbered scenario I want to do re PP point accumulaiton rates, CD gun tube numbers, etc, and play with the old AI scripts?

Realize some folks aren't as facile with the editor as others, so ... just this once, Moose.

Please say which scen you are starting with, 01, 02 or 06, and what your new, re-numbered scenario number is. I'll pm you with a zip that has the corresponding class and ship files with all the magic done and with your numbers. Just unzip and let them replace what's there.

And no, you don't have to do this first. The PP acc rates, CD guns, AI scripts are in different files. Sub tubes only occur in Class (wpc) and Ship (wps) files. Just don't mess with classes or ships till you get the new files.

Ciao. J



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 8:14:53 PM)

PM sent.



JWE -> RE: Small TF and ship bombard reults (4/5/2010 8:34:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
PM sent.

Hi Moose. Got it, understand it, and it's all done. You have your pm turned off, so I can't get them to you. Please either pm me with your email address (to be kept confidential), or say that I can post it here. Would rather have your email since there are a couple 'teensy' errata instructions that come with it re interfacing that won't be included in an open post.

J



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