Economy? (Full Version)

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JudgeDredd -> Economy? (4/5/2010 4:54:11 PM)

Whilst I'm here - is economy porked? I read it was some time ago (or some aspect of it) but I thought it was fixed in the latest patch?

My concern is this. All of a sudden, I'm in the red by -38,000 and my income is -37,000?

This has happened over a very short period of time. I have only 6 colonies.

[image]local://upfiles/10786/D5DCEFA1BD7C47BDA9F89CEFCA1181C4.jpg[/image]



JudgeDredd -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 4:57:03 PM)

This is my economy window.

[image]local://upfiles/10786/D88E79A21EFD453C8E564987F623ABE8.jpg[/image]



JudgeDredd -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:04:36 PM)

My main gripe is this - if it's "automated" - if the game is designed in such a way as to run msot things on it's own, then it should be competent at it. I haven't built anything without the game suggesting it. I haven't colonised without the game suggesting it. I have simply been allowing the game to continue and suggest. When it suggests I need more ships, I let it build more. When it suggests I need a colony ship - I let it build it. When it suggests I need a new Explorer - I let it build it.

Whilst the games innovation appeared to be the lack of micro management for the user, I'm not convinced I can let it go on it's own. This is a small 100 star system with most of the settings set to the left of the option bars...I can't get any simpler than that and already I'm screwed...and through (apparently) no fault of my own.

If there's a reason why I have gone in the red - and if it's my fault, then I hold my hands up. But I fail to see how that can be the case when I have let the game go along with it's automation.

This is my options screen. The thing I control is Taxes, and fleets. Taxes I have been putting up and down in small amounts, testing to see what the colonies accept...I will put this to automated to see what it changes the values to and how it copes with the colonies (some of these colonies are on VERY small taxes because they start to get very upset very quickly (5-6%??)


[image]local://upfiles/10786/F71A1006D85E47CFA7E4E66D85DB62C1.jpg[/image]



lordxorn -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:08:09 PM)

Your culture is tanking, some of your luxury resources might be in short supply. Remember you need up to 10 different luxury resources, when your culture tanks so does your tax revenue.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:15:08 PM)

Will check. Thx

Edit
Ok - I have 0 stock of any luxury items. But is this not all automated? I mean - my whole game is automated - I'm not creating explorers or miners or colony ships or warships...so through no fault of my own, my economy has tanked?

I presume if my exploration ships had found any of these luxury items, then they would have reported this and I would have been requested by the automation to send a miner? Or would it have sent a miner itself?

I'm very confused - is it a lack of resources in my galaxy? Has the game not created enough? I don't understand how I can have 6 colonies and my empire has tanked??


I mean - if you look at the Galaxy Stock for these items, and my requirements, there is not enough...and that's assuming I can get to all the luxury items on the list...and so far I haven't (apart from (apparently) 1 source of Aquasian Incense!
[image]local://upfiles/10786/329A6A74FE314CB092E2E2C5CB13F494.jpg[/image]



Xenoform21 -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:26:29 PM)

Most likely you don't have a steady supply of these resources. At this point your far too much in the red to really be able to counteract this, unless you find a new friend with these resources close by soon.

But my recommendation otherwise is to look through your expansion planner and find some luxury resources close by and send a mining ship to that planet asap. Preferably a planet that is close by and can be protected easily by your fleet.

Were you experiencing any problems with pirates so far?



ASHBERY76 -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:30:32 PM)

The empire had no liquer.No wonder it went to hell.[:)]



Scamiran -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:33:51 PM)

Is there a good guide anywhere on how to grow your economy?

I'm just starting out, and am a 4X junkie, but I couldn't figure out the DW economic model yesterday.

Here are my problems:

1. Cash flow isn't constant, and the AI seems to overspend badly. My "cash flow" would be positive, and suddenly I would jump into the negative, and not know where the cash went. Then I would spend months and months in the red. Also, the AI seems to overspend on ships badly. My colony revenue would be 30-40K, my maintenance cost would be 29-35K, and the AI kept suggesting building more ships, even though my fleet just annihilated several pirate bases with no losses. Should I be managing construction myself?

2. Colonies seem to take a long time to develop into revenue sources. What else should I be doing? I spend a lot of time building mining bases. I also signed trade agreements with my 3 nearest neighbors, but it seems like those take a while to cycle up, too. Same for resort bases; the investment just doesn't seem to make sense early game. How long does it take for a resort base to become profitable?

3. Space ports; do I need a space port in a system for mining bases to function? Is it possible to build mining bases in systems that aren't worth colonizing?

4. Finally, I tried to design new mining (and gas mining) bases with a small weapon loadout, but I cannot get the "queue a construction ship to build a mining base" button in the Expansion Planner to build a newer mining base design. I've obsoleted the old one, but it keeps building the original MST-1 or whatever the first name is.



Athalian -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:39:02 PM)

seems there is little luxury goods in the galaxy being extracted and stored. You can check if there is planets with luxury goods that you know about by choosing one of the two middle options u get when u click "potential colonies". Just direct one or more of your construction ships to planets with luxury goods :)



Shark7 -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:45:02 PM)

Looks like you need to re-evaluate your naval needs and scrap some older, less efficient ships. I ran into this problem myself, and basically I was able to scrap half my navy and still have suffient patrols while seriously cutting into maintainence costs. Once you are better established, then you can build newer designs to replace what you scrapped.



Athalian -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 5:48:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Scamiran

Is there a good guide anywhere on how to grow your economy?

I'm just starting out, and am a 4X junkie, but I couldn't figure out the DW economic model yesterday.

Here are my problems:

1. Cash flow isn't constant, and the AI seems to overspend badly. My "cash flow" would be positive, and suddenly I would jump into the negative, and not know where the cash went. Then I would spend months and months in the red. Also, the AI seems to overspend on ships badly. My colony revenue would be 30-40K, my maintenance cost would be 29-35K, and the AI kept suggesting building more ships, even though my fleet just annihilated several pirate bases with no losses. Should I be managing construction myself?

2. Colonies seem to take a long time to develop into revenue sources. What else should I be doing? I spend a lot of time building mining bases. I also signed trade agreements with my 3 nearest neighbors, but it seems like those take a while to cycle up, too. Same for resort bases; the investment just doesn't seem to make sense early game. How long does it take for a resort base to become profitable?

3. Space ports; do I need a space port in a system for mining bases to function? Is it possible to build mining bases in systems that aren't worth colonizing?

4. Finally, I tried to design new mining (and gas mining) bases with a small weapon loadout, but I cannot get the "queue a construction ship to build a mining base" button in the Expansion Planner to build a newer mining base design. I've obsoleted the old one, but it keeps building the original MST-1 or whatever the first name is.


1. Yes, you know better what you need and want :)
2. Things take a while to be profitable, population have to grow, ships to transport people has to be built. How long it takes depends on the location and what kinda colonies are nearby
3. its not needed to make them function, but they serve as a collecting point. This way, the transport ships got shorter route to take. You can still create mining stations wherever you want, the ships just get a longer trip to take. Try build at least one small port in each system with a colony :)
4. Did that station have the mining station category? and is it below the 600 size limit for stations not built at colonies?



Sarissofoi -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 6:18:53 PM)

[image]http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff238/OverLordZenon/aw1.jpg[/image]
[image]http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff238/OverLordZenon/aw2.jpg[/image]



freeboy -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 6:28:15 PM)

Judge, I find that the economy  works... you are suffering what appears t obe growth related spending.. not sure why on automated as I try to run most of the building...
good luck



Gertjan -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 6:30:50 PM)

Dont build to many military ships early in the game. I find that the Ai is too much eager to fight large wars and wants to expands your marine. I only have 8 destroyers at the moment (and about 40 colonies, and tons of escorts and frigates on automation). But the AI wants me to buy 8 capital ships, 10 cruisers, 15 destroyers, etc. I wait with this until my young colonies are more developed and I really need those ships to fight a war. At the moment my military is just as large as my strongest opponent. So I dont really need it, even though the Ai recommends it.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 7:25:30 PM)

I don't think you understand - I'm not bulding ANY ships...The AI is. I've built nothing without it's request.

As for the -40% corruption??? According to the manual, I am suffering this because I'm over 1 billion in population...but I have 6 colonies??? How am I meant to keep corruption down (by reducing population) when the point of the game is to expand???



Sarissofoi -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 7:37:05 PM)

Saying it simply.
Automation is bad for you. SkyNet is bad.
Remember when you have trouble blame Cana... oh wait, blame New Zeland!

Despotism is bad goverment.
If you wanna be Emperor choose Monarchy.



lordxorn -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 7:37:24 PM)

ROFL, hilarious.

Anyways, Judge

I understand your frustration, however I guess this is where the AI has it's limitations. Maybe the AI suggested you go to war during your game when it could not find any more sources of Luxury goods vital to your economy. This is why you have to step in as supreme leader and make sure your empire has luxury resources.

I compare this to the excellent resource system of CIV4, where if you are the CIV without Oil late game your are toast. Same thing with DW.

Here are some tips for new players struggling with the economy.

1. When you first start the game you have to at least build like 5 scouts, and manually have them scan while sectors. Spreading out from your initial sector. This will ensure that you can scout a good variety of luxury resources.

2. Once you have scouted good locations for resources/luxuries open the expansion planner, and select potential resources. Here is where you can order your construction yards to automatically send mining ships to the resources you need.

3. Once you have populated a system with mining bases, try and colonize a planet in system so you can build a Starbase. This will act as a central trade hub, that will make resources more readily available. It also adds some defense to the system. (Note:If there is an existing Mining Base it will be consumed in the Starbase. A colony automatically gathers/mines planetary resources.)

4. Ensure you empire has enough escorts to protect your civilian economy from Pirates/Space Worm Fodder.

5. Don't rely on Spaceport income, because it is a temporary income as your economy grows, and you expand your empire the civilian side will purchase more transports. Once your empire stops expanding, the spaceport income will only come in when your civilians decide to upgrade. (Note: Make sure you upgrade your civilian transports and bases to take advantage of your latest technology like faster drives, bigger storage, and more efficient mining facilities.

6. Watch out when you make monthly protection deals with pirates, it does not show up on F12 and can drain an positive cash flow empire in no time.

I hope these tips help newer players, and those struggling with the economy. Because as it stands right now, it is not too hard. The reason I say this is if you look at the next patch notes, the economy is getting nerfed somewhat with a larger corruption penalty for big empires.



Athalian -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 7:37:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I don't think you understand - I'm not bulding ANY ships...The AI is. I've built nothing without it's request.

As for the -40% corruption??? According to the manual, I am suffering this because I'm over 1 billion in population...but I have 6 colonies??? How am I meant to keep corruption down (by reducing population) when the point of the game is to expand???


As for the 40% corruption, thats what you are suffering due to the government type you have chosen. A colony will suffer corruption as it get bigger, your problem is that your government type is naturally very very corrupt. That 40% has nothing to do with the 1b pop corruption a colony will suffer. Look at the govt types in the galactopedia, it contains what pro's and con's a govt type has :)



lordxorn -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 7:40:23 PM)

Your largest colony with Culture of 63 is killing you. You need luxury resources, don't be distracted by anything else. It may look like you built too many ships because your F12 screen report 41k in ship fees and only 12k in revenue.

That is a false indicator, when your main colony culture was up around 90s your revenue surely supported the 41k ship maint. You need luxuries plain and simple.

He can't tax the colony at 40%!! because the approval rating is at 8%. This is due to low culture. Get your culture to high 80s/90s and your problem will go away.

Corruption is not even a factor, and I have a bigger empire than you.



mightili -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 7:42:50 PM)

Automation - Bankruptcyation... I think we have some accountants playing this game. Lets show them our spreadsheets and maybe they can advise our AI how to play the game properly, cause it seems that Australian accountants who programmed a math for game's economy were probably self-educated.



fabio80mi -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 8:19:41 PM)

Problems you're running so early in the game is definetly (and only) tied up with lacking of development on your homeworld (=lacks of luxury resources).

My guess would be you 1) dont have enough constructors 2) pirates managed to kill some of your gas/mining station and you didnt rebuild them yet 3) you dont have access to enough luxury, that is maybe you colonized worlds without luxuries.

Suggestions would be to have at least 5 explorers from the verty start and very soon move to 3 constructors, actually my very first start usually in my homeworld is :

colony
colony OR constructor
Research base (80k research on every field)
constructor or colony
constructor or colony
Resupply ship if needed or idle till i need either a colony or constructor.




taltamir -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 8:58:56 PM)

what version are you playing?
before v1.02 there was a critical bug in the AI that controlled luxuries that caused it to stop working. meaning your empire starved of them and your economy tanked.



JudgeDredd -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 9:06:35 PM)

My confusion here really lies in my lack of understanding of what is automated and what is not and where automation ends and my interaction starts.

For example, I have everything automated except fleets. I would assume that, because I have the other options on automation, that they would mine for my damned luxury resources.

I don't mind being wrong here and I know I'm definitely playing it like a n00b...but seriously. Please. If it's automated, then surely it's automated. If I am not responsible for building mining stations or construction ships...then how can I be responsible for making sure I've got miners going to get my luxury resources. The AI has been assigning them...it didn't appear as if I had to assign them!

This is where my confusion lies...where automation starts and ends. If automation is purely saying "We think you need 3 mining stations and 6 escorts" and that's it...fine. I know that's where the automation ends and I have to pick up what I do with those.

But that's not where automation ends, is it? It starts with ""We think you need 3 mining stations and 6 escorts" and then proceeds to allocate the miners and escorts. How am I meant to tell that I've got to manually assign those miners to go after luxury resources? It's been assigning the miners fine...the first thing I know that it hasn't been, is my economy has gone boobies up!

I'm simply confused by the whole automation thing and whilst I love the game, the boundaries need to be clearer...much clearer. Automation needs to end at some point and the user needs to know when that is so they can pick up the baton and run with it.

I'm just going to restart (-250k in the red and dropping -35k) and turn automation off. I'll decide how many destroyers, frigates and escorts to build. I'll decide when to create and disband a fleet. I'll decide when to create colony ships. I'll decide when to create mining stations and where to place them. I expect I'll have to start off small...but tbh, I was finding the 100 star system enough to handle anyway!



JudgeDredd -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 9:06:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir

what version are you playing?
before v1.02 there was a critical bug in the AI that controlled luxuries that caused it to stop working. meaning your empire starved of them and your economy tanked.

1.02



taltamir -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 9:08:00 PM)

interesting... when colonizing, have you prioritized colonizing planets with goods? or did you colonize a ton of planets with nothing?



JudgeDredd -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 9:09:43 PM)

I colonised what planets the AI found and asked me to colonise. Again...a misunderstanding in what the AI was doing. I thought it was recommending I colonise these planets.



taltamir -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 9:16:51 PM)

mmm... I manually colonize like crazy, my main focus is colonization.
I buy the locations of "independent colonies" from pirates and colonize those. I buy tons of explorers so that I have a huge list of good planets. Then I start off by colonizing anything with ancient ruins (this is really good) followed by planets with best resources.

There is a good chance that the AI recommended you colonize the "best" planets you had known, but due to low amounts of exploration vessels you didn't have many planets known.



Barthheart -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 9:17:44 PM)

Yeah JD, I find teh AI to be a spend/colonize crazy. I only colonize what it suggests if I'm making more +10K "credits"(whatever they are). Also only build ships if I think I can really afford them.

I find it useful to keep these on auto to point out that I have places to colonize if I want, as I usually end up putting the exploreres on auto.



Jim D Burns -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 10:22:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I colonised what planets the AI found and asked me to colonise. Again...a misunderstanding in what the AI was doing. I thought it was recommending I colonise these planets.


You may have just rolled a really bad local area of the galaxy. It may be there are simply no luxuries to be had anywhere you've been yet, which means there is nothing you can do until you find some.

Either scrap the game and roll a new galaxy, or scrap your fleets and build 6-8 new explorers and hope you find some soon. I always queue up 6 explorers immediately in any new game I start, getting a look at everything near you is vital if your home world/worlds have no luxuries.

Jim



JudgeDredd -> RE: Economy? (4/5/2010 10:45:28 PM)

Yeah, I'll just have to chalk this up to a lack of understanding. I perhaps was expecting the AI was being clever enough for me (by assuming it had found a good colony) and allowing it to carry on it's merry way.

I'll be more penny-wise next time.



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