Another Diplomacy Exploit (Full Version)

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OberonDark -> Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/7/2010 3:46:44 AM)

So, I was playing a Teekan Mercantile Guild with the best economy in the galaxy. An enemy empire colonizes in a system where I have a mining station, and then blame me for invading them (of course). So they say, "give us the mining station or declare war". This is obviously not the best solution, so I chose make another deal. I got rid of all demands so that the trade was balanced at 0-0. The AI reads this as balanced, and forgets all about their original demands, and says mkay this never happened.

Now I mean, being a Jedi ("This is not the Mining Station you're looking for") race is awesome, but it's an exploit. I mean, you have to use it intentionally, but I think it's something that might want to be looked at.

Not high on the priority list, just throwing it out there.



lordxorn -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/7/2010 5:03:09 AM)

I think you are still getting a negative relations with them.



Wicky -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/7/2010 6:56:15 AM)

Yep, for example the Sluken have confronted me with the choice "give us this colony or we declare war". So I click on negotiate different deal, remove the war declaration and trade one tech for another, and they forgot about the war.



taltamir -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/7/2010 7:51:14 AM)

this works in reverse... they offer you a deal, you click on the thing to see more options, change your mind and decide to leave it as they have offered... nope, can't do that... they will refuse the deal now.



Ranbir -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/7/2010 9:21:41 AM)

I think there should be a distinction of "who was here first" so it isn't always the AI accusing you of being belligerent.



taltamir -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 1:59:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ranbir

I think there should be a distinction of "who was here first" so it isn't always the AI accusing you of being belligerent.


good point, the AI sometimes builds a mining station on MY systems and then accuses me of being belligerent... and I get a bad rep for it too.



Interesting -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 2:42:12 AM)

And worse yet, the AI acuses me of having Military in their systems when in reality they are PRIVATE small freighters with one beam weapon each for self protection..

STUPID AI.



frugaldude -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 3:17:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Interesting

And worse yet, the AI acuses me of having Military in their systems when in reality they are PRIVATE small freighters with one beam weapon each for self protection..

STUPID AI.



This can easily be fixed. Elliot should prohibit weapons installation on civilian craft to allow the AI to work as it was intended.



Cindar -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 4:19:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wicky

Yep, for example the Sluken have confronted me with the choice "give us this colony or we declare war". So I click on negotiate different deal, remove the war declaration and trade one tech for another, and they forgot about the war.



95% of the time enemies are threatening to declare war they still wont, its just to goad you into giving them stuff. I'm not even sure if accepting their deal prevents war, all it does is raise your rep with them a bit but they can still decide to fight.



thiosk -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 5:15:58 AM)

Beam weapons on private craft should not be outlawed;

when every empire in the galaxy declares war on you, i see no problem in arming my freighters.




taltamir -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 5:25:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thiosk

Beam weapons on private craft should not be outlawed;

when every empire in the galaxy declares war on you, i see no problem in arming my freighters.

everyone in the galaxy is declaring war on you because you arm your freighters... because the AI sees your freighters have weapons, decides its an invading alien force, and thus goes to war with you over invading their territories... and YOU get counted as the aggressor and thus your reputation decreases, further lowering your relationship with other races and lowering morale on all your planets.

see the problem now? if they don't outlaw it, then they should fix the "rules" so that the AI is not as offended by them.



JonathanStrange -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 6:04:04 AM)

Fooling the AI with a nothing-for-nothing trade is amusing but I agree the AI's original demand is more of a bluff: the AI enters a system, a competitor's there, demand something to either get a gift or have the first-comers get a bad rep for a D-O-W. If the infringing AI does give the first-competitor a negative rating, that makes sense too: the AI's telling itself this other civ in the solar system may be trouble later. Not to do so would increase the chance the AI will be surprised when their nice quiet kept to himself neighbor attacks them.



Gertjan -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 10:25:36 AM)

I usually accept the offered trades for colonies/mining stations that are not so valuable, since you usually get some ones in return.



forsaken1111 -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 12:33:19 PM)

Regarding armed civilian ships:

The AI should just ignore any ship which is a privately owned vessel, and only evaluate military ships for the purposes of getting angry about ships being in their system.

In fact the AI should also ignore a few military ships if they are en-route to refuel at a starbase or spaceport. I am buying fuel from you, why are you upset?



Wade1000 -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 12:43:02 PM)

I agree with Forsaken1111. The opponent AIs should not be offended/threatened by armed private/civilllian ships. I'm very much against many types of artificial limitations. We can not even control such ships.

Military ships of certain small numbers should not offend/threaten them either if the destination is a refueling station that is protected.



Gerth -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 1:39:46 PM)

"I am buying fuel from you, why are you upset?"

Because no realworld sovereign nation would ever permit such a transgression without an express access treaty. The Somalia pirates are having a ball because private vessels are unarmed. I like the idea of just slightly muting the ai outrage or having other empires provide armed security within their systems.

"I'm very much against many types of artificial limitations."

The idea/mechanic of privately armed ships roaming into sovereign systems is actually the artificial notion. Such a game mechanic in no way reflects reality. Now, I do agree with the notion that realism should be dispensed with when it mitigates the enjoyment of a game. But I don't see arming private vessels as a necessary solution.



forsaken1111 -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 2:24:37 PM)

At the very least it should be an option or be evaluated based on the strength of the defending ships. My destroyer was on automate so I didn't tell him to go there. Perhaps the game should only allow civilian traffic to dock with and trade with other nations unless you have a treaty.



Gerth -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 2:26:34 PM)

Yeah, a treaty exception would be good.



frugaldude -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 4:34:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frugaldude


quote:

ORIGINAL: Interesting

And worse yet, the AI acuses me of having Military in their systems when in reality they are PRIVATE small freighters with one beam weapon each for self protection..

STUPID AI.



This can easily be fixed. Elliot should prohibit weapons installation on civilian craft to allow the AI to work as it was intended.


I admit it.  I was rash in my statement.  I do not think adding weapons to civilian ships should be prohibited.  A red letter design menu warning when you add weapons to your civilian craft should suffice.  I prefer keeping this game as open ended as possible.  Adding restrictions would put this game on the dumbing down road.

I admit I haven't tried arming civilian vessels.  Right now I don't see the attraction.  But some day I may want to arm my ships to add that personal challenge.  As long as I can add challenges this game will remain replayable for me.

I may use this in my game generation.  Suppose I want to lead a large irritating empire which everyone hates.  I could simulate this by arming my civilian ships and would be guaranteed constant conflict with everyone I meet.  Race and government would be irrelevant.
Suppose I have developed a nice cozy empire with excellent relations with everyone.   Arm those merchants.  I'm tough.  Who cares what those other empires think.  In the end my empire lives or dies by my decisions.  I should be able to create this policy which defies galactic norms.

I see this as a gaming issue not a design issue.  If I want to add civilian weapons I have to live with the consequences.  It is my game, my decision.  What I don't expect is the developer having to simplify (dumb down) the structure of the DW due to my gaming decisions.

----sorry about the edits. spelling issues



HsojVvad -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 5:17:38 PM)

Someone mentioned about the privite fleet having weapons and that is why they are upset with you. I don't think this is the case because I just left the private fleet as the AI built them, and I only had 4 destroyers 1 frigate and 3 escorts, and the AI says my fleet is huge and threatening? I had a lot of private ships though. I can't see my 10 military ships being so scary and threatening.



taltamir -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/8/2010 10:51:07 PM)

quote:

I admit it. I was rash in my statement. I do not think adding weapons to civilian ships should be prohibited. A red letter design menu warning when you add weapons to your civilian craft should suffice. I prefer keeping this game as open ended as possible. Adding restrictions would put this game on the dumping down road.

Very good suggestion... a "warning" in ship design is appropriate...
the problem with that is that people who already KNOW it is doing that are complaining that you cannot CONFINE armed merchant to your OWN systems (thus eliminating the AI issues), and that the AI cannot differentiate between armed transports and an invasion fleet and consider the former less severe then the latter (although potentially still annoying to them); or at the very least, TELL you its armed transports instead of "military ships" that bother it (while being equally bothered, just being more clear on the cause for the deteriorating relationships)



Cindar -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/9/2010 12:12:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerth

The idea/mechanic of privately armed ships roaming into sovereign systems is actually the artificial notion. Such a game mechanic in no way reflects reality. Now, I do agree with the notion that realism should be dispensed with when it mitigates the enjoyment of a game. But I don't see arming private vessels as a necessary solution.


Maybe ships today don't, but I that is more because we have instant communication to anyone on the planet and if you get in trouble help can come in a matter of hours usually. If you look back on the past where merchants had to fend for themselves most of the time, many did include at least some small amount of armaments. I would think that in space, with its vast distances, pirates everywhere, and relatively long reaction times even if you could communicate with someone willing to help you (is communication actually instant in distant worlds, or is that just an abstraction?), you are pretty much out of luck.



taltamir -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/9/2010 12:19:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cindar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerth

The idea/mechanic of privately armed ships roaming into sovereign systems is actually the artificial notion. Such a game mechanic in no way reflects reality. Now, I do agree with the notion that realism should be dispensed with when it mitigates the enjoyment of a game. But I don't see arming private vessels as a necessary solution.


Maybe ships today don't, but I that is more because we have instant communication to anyone on the planet and if you get in trouble help can come in a matter of hours usually. If you look back on the past where merchants had to fend for themselves most of the time, many did include at least some small amount of armaments. I would think that in space, with its vast distances, pirates everywhere, and relatively long reaction times even if you could communicate with someone willing to help you (is communication actually instant in distant worlds, or is that just an abstraction?), you are pretty much out of luck.


but in the distant world universe they have TRUE instant communication rather then "virtually instant", and their warp engines CAN be used inside a system... higher level engines have a warm up of mere 4-5 seconds; and the speed of the jump is a fraction of a second within the system (it does take a few seconds between systems though).
So it takes 5 seconds from the moment your ship comes under attack until help arrives IF help is sent.

Even your very first tech level 1 engine is fast enough for ships to be arrive in time from a neighboring system... faster engines just increase the distance this can work for...



Cindar -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/9/2010 12:30:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
but in the distant world universe they have TRUE instant communication rather then "virtually instant", and their warp engines CAN be used inside a system... higher level engines have a warm up of mere 4-5 seconds; and the speed of the jump is a fraction of a second within the system (it does take a few seconds between systems though).
So it takes 5 seconds from the moment your ship comes under attack until help arrives IF help is sent.

Even your very first tech level 1 engine is fast enough for ships to be arrive in time from a neighboring system... faster engines just increase the distance this can work for...


No... remember, 5 seconds ingame = a few days of time. Not to mention there are hyperdrive inhibitors, which any kind of effective pirate force would be packing as it would pretty much be the holy grail of screwing weak ships over. Once your hyper drive is disabled your only choices are to surrender or fight. We don't even know if communication is really instant, it may just be a thing done for the convenience of the player.

BTW, being able to be a pirate faction would be awesome. Hiding from enemies, preying on ships to capture new technology, ect.



taltamir -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/9/2010 12:53:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cindar

quote:

ORIGINAL: taltamir
but in the distant world universe they have TRUE instant communication rather then "virtually instant", and their warp engines CAN be used inside a system... higher level engines have a warm up of mere 4-5 seconds; and the speed of the jump is a fraction of a second within the system (it does take a few seconds between systems though).
So it takes 5 seconds from the moment your ship comes under attack until help arrives IF help is sent.

Even your very first tech level 1 engine is fast enough for ships to be arrive in time from a neighboring system... faster engines just increase the distance this can work for...


No... remember, 5 seconds ingame = a few days of time.


Firstly, this is abstracted... secondly, you have shields that can absorb multiple hits and it takes a few seconds for your weapon to recharge... so fine... it takes 2 days per laser shot and 3 days for your ship to jump... luckily your shields can take 50 laser shots (aka, 100 days) and therefore will last far longer then you need to.

quote:

Not to mention there are hyperdrive inhibitors

Inhibitors only prevent jumping out from an inhibited space, you can jump INTO it just fine.

quote:

which any kind of effective pirate force would be packing as it would pretty much be the holy grail of screwing weak ships over.

never seen a pirate use one, and they wouldn't benefit much from it either.

quote:

Once your hyper drive is disabled your only choices are to surrender or fight.

sure... or take 1% of shield damage while the army comes to rescue you.

quote:

We don't even know if communication is really instant, it may just be a thing done for the convenience of the player.

Doesn't matter, you have perfect detection of everything in a star system... heck even if they were limited by the speed of a light a star system is small enough for it to not matter. Even if they somehow jam communications you could just DETECT the pirates and then engage them without a distress call being sent.



taltamir -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/9/2010 1:19:26 AM)

http://www.noao.edu/education/peppercorn/pcmain.html
interesting... the solar system is larger then I thought and light slower than I thought. pluto is far out from the other objects in the solar system, its orbit fluctuates wildly... its average is 5.4 light hours from the sun though.
This means that without FTL you would NOT notice a ship in time assuming time conversions are coherent (that is, that it really takes 2 days in game to fire your lasers once).

that being said... the perfect detection and FTL travel show that it is a simple matter to secure anything in a solar system. in game terms, even the slowest engines let you respond in a timely manner to an attack on a mining base in another system (ex is in the ad movie for the game... also i have done it myself). inside the system travel is trivial



Cindar -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/9/2010 1:34:29 AM)

I think it's safe to assume that the weapons are an abstraction, they don't take half a day to fire. Whether hyperdrive is an abstraction is debateable. I think that if it was, though, it wouldn't make sense to rate hyperdrives by how fast they warm up and get ready to warp. 2s vs 5s is not a meaningful thing, but 12 hours vs 24 hours would be.



forsaken1111 -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/9/2010 3:19:38 PM)

We don't have armed merchant ships today because we don't have pirates everywhere, crazy giant lobsters, space slugs, killer jellyfish, and big damn sand worms. Look at most other space-based games with private traders and merchants and you will see that most ships carry some sort of armament, even if only to shoot an asteroid or perform a utility role, else the merchant/trader hires on guards for dangerous routes.

Something I would like to see which would greatly improve this:

Actual civilian corporations. These could be non-empire entities which have holdings in space and on planets. They would organize mining, cargo routes, trade routes, etc for profit and pay you taxes. Likely they would hire pirates or mercenaries to escort their own ships, especially along known dangerous routes.



JonathanStrange -> RE: Another Diplomacy Exploit (4/9/2010 3:23:37 PM)

These armed civilian corps. could also be a fun source of rebellions and independents. Cool.



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