RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (Full Version)

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Shark7 -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/9/2010 4:56:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Water cannon is in a catagory of it's own. Don't know how that is classified or if they use inches, milimeters or the pounds ejected per second standard.

It has to be included. The Egyptians used water cannons to hose down and cut openings for tanks in the sand embankments at the Bar Lev line in 1973 so they do have a place in the catagory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

So where does the water cannon fit in? Is there a water howitzer? I think I have heard of a water gun before. [8D]



Water cannon = gallons per minute or PSI, usually. [;)]



jumper -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/13/2010 2:00:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt

Well, if i can highjack this thread on a not serious way...

Just for fun, the french MEDIA ( here, the important and funny word is MEDIA [;)] )
usually know nothing about it.
Look at a video in irak/afghanistan/africa/elsewhere with fightings.
The mortar are called "heavy artillery" [8|]
The light machines-guns are called "light-cannon" [8|]
The rocket-launcher are called bazooka or missiles" [8|]
i even heard some howitzer called "heavy-anti-tank-cannon" [8|][8|][8|]

i think the reporters should have done their time of Military service, this would avoid those stupid comments [;)]


It reminds me some TV serie about Great battles of WWII from BBC production Iīve seen some time ago in Czech TV, where many things were lost in translation.. The poor guy responsible for translation surely had no interest in WWII. My favourite was the new character called gen.Staff [;)] Man, this guy was everywhere and I havenīt heard of of him before.. ![X(][:'(]




morganbj -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/13/2010 2:18:56 PM)

Every time the US media sees anything with any armor at all on it, they call it a tank. Self-propelled howitzers, armored cars, Bradleys, even a red wagon with a box in it are called "tanks." But, one of the worst thibgs I hear is the term "calvary" applied to the military. (Do I have to tell anyone what "Calvary" is?) I even heard an imbedded journalist refer to his unit as the "X calv," I don't remember which one it was. It was either the 2nd or the 3rd. I then realized that everything he said before and after had been filtered thorugh his think veil of ignorance.



Jo van der Pluym -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/13/2010 2:39:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Which is the Best Battle ship: Bismark, Iowa or Yamato




HMS Warspite. Saw more action than all of the above combined... [:D]



I think earlier Fort Drum the unsinkable battleship of concrete in manilla bay.[:D]



Jo van der Pluym -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/13/2010 2:45:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Worth noting that the M61 (I think) Vulcan carried by a lot of modern USAAF fighter aircraft (like the F15 Eagle) has just about the highest rate of fire of any air-to-air or air-to-groudn weapon (thanks to its six barrels) yet is still regarded as a cannon. And also the dreaded 37mm Gau-gun carried on teh A10 also has an even more fantastic rate of fire (sounds like a super-charged buzz-saw going) yet is also considered a cannon.
So it's also not just down to rate-of-fire...


But do they go Rat-tat-tat-tat or BOOM! [:D]


I think it goes boo-boo-boo-boo-boom[:D]



JWE -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/13/2010 3:16:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf
Water cannon is in a catagory of it's own. Don't know how that is classified or if they use inches, milimeters or the pounds ejected per second standard.

10in naval funnelator Mk-9, on Mk-3 traversing carriage.

[image]local://upfiles/17451/4D217F51488747FE830281B6F12E1190.jpg[/image]



Nikademus -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/13/2010 4:11:45 PM)

I think you got the ACC value on that device wrong......no power steering.

[:)]



witpqs -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/13/2010 4:36:49 PM)

And those fire control mechanisms look a little drunk!



JWE -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/13/2010 7:39:29 PM)

Trail box for the Mk-9 includes 12x Modello-Negro in two 6-pack containers; 2x pkgs, high-volume, elliptical-shape, anti-personel, area drenching, balloon rounds; 3x bottles Pussers Rum, Blue Label (quart, glass, twist-top, Mk-2), 1x pkg, low volume, parallel-shape, sub-caliber, anti-personnel, in yo face so it hurts, DF balloon rounds; 1x bottles White Booze (gin, vodka, girly men - for the use thereof, various sizes - Mk-1). It has been noted that Mk-9 trail boxes have sometimes been over-packed with items like Coke, Pepsi, or Red Bull. It is believed that these instances are from reports of militia units and are not representative of professional vessels.

BuWeaps has received reports of severe degradation of both ACC and EFF of these weapon systems, over time; often, a very short period of time. BuWeaps believes this reduction in effectivity is caused by skipper caution and insufficient training of the funnelator crews. Perhaps blowing off the girly-men and substituting one more Pussers, Blue Label (quart, glass, twist-top, Mk-2), to the trail box might induce some more practical activity into the funnelator crews.




Erkki -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 7:47:36 AM)

Its simple. A weapon firing ammunition with a diameter less than 20mm is small arms. Anything 20mm or bigger is a cannon. The use of fragmenting or exploding material in them is banned. Of course this didnt stop the Soviets using them, nor the Japanese(ie. the Japanese heavy MGs used in Ki-43, Ki-61 etc. had exploding rounds, more on the topic there: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9381076497?r=9381076497#9381076497 (no, I dont agree with the first post)).

St. Petersburg declaration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_Renouncing_the_Use,_in_Time_of_War,_of_Explosive_Projectiles_Under_400_Grammes_Weight

Note in the German weapon MG151/20 which was a cannon but called a "machine gun" the name originates from the MG151, which was a 15mm machine gun with incredible penetration and muzzle speed, fitted in first Bf-109Fs. The gun was disliked, the barrell was changed and the shell modified to make it a 20mm cannon with explosive and "mine-shells"(powerful explosive shells with a thin case and little penetration), much better than the MG-FF, but the original 151's muzzle speed was lost.



d0mbo -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 7:53:22 AM)

Gents, do we have come to a conclusion yet? Sleep deprivation is truely killing me [>:]




JeffroK -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 8:12:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Let's see if I can hijack this thread:
What is the better aircraft armament. A large number of heavy caliber machine guns or smaller machine guns and cannons? Why did everybody else (Brit's , Japs, Germans and Russians) use the small machine gun cannon setup and the American's use the 4,6,8 x 50 cal setup?

[/quoTE]

In 1939 when the RAF had 8 x .303 and the Luftwaffe 1 20mm and 2 or 4 x 7.7mm in their fighters, the USAAC had 1 x50cal & 1 x 30cl. It was only the arrival of the P-38,39,40 saw the increase in armament in US Aircraft by which time the RAF was using 2 x 20mm and 4 x .303 and looking at 4 x 20mm and the Luftwaffe multiple 20mm and MG's.

Even the P-51 on arrival only had 4 x 50cal (except for a small number with 4 x 20mm)

If you look at the Tony Willams's site, it has an excellent comparison of various loud outs over the full war period.

As for the original question, a Machine Gun fires bullets, a Cannon fires an explosive shell. The Brits used a 15mm MG on its Lt Tanks and Armd cars, the Luftwaffe tried a 15mm cannon:

From Tony Williams http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm
The Germans were not satisfied with the MG-FFM, which had been adopted as an interim measure pending the development of a purpose-designed cannon. This duly emerged as the Mauser MG 151, which gradually took over from 1941. Initially, the Mauser had been designed to use a high-velocity 15 mm cartridge, but it saw relatively little service in this form. Wartime experience led to the cartridge case being modified to accept the 20 mm shells from the MG-FFM, surrendering muzzle velocity and penetration in the interests of far greater destructive effect. The 15 mm version was available with HE shells, but they were considered too small. The resulting MG 151/20 was intermediate in size, weight and muzzle velocity between the MG-FFM and the Hispano, but was faster-firing at 12 rps. It was a superb design which the Americans tried to copy, producing some 300 guns in .60 inch (15.2 mm) calibre, designated T17, but they never adopted it.



Chris21wen -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 9:11:55 AM)

My understanding is:

A cannon is any gun over 20mm that can fire exploding ammo and have calibre above 30. (Length of the barrel is greater then 30 times the bore). It can also only fire at either low or high trajectory, not both.

A howitzer is a gun that fires explosive shells and has a calibre less than 30. It can also fire at both high and low angle trajectories.

Motar is a cannon that fires at low velocity and high trajectories and therefore has low range.

Gun is a weapon that fires projectiles at high velocity but at low trajectories. Strictly speaking a rifle isn't a gun, a gun is smooth bore but that's become blurred as many modern weapon use rifling.




Jaroen -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 12:13:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

Gents, do we have come to a conclusion yet? Sleep deprivation is truely killing me [>:]





Somehow I was thinking you were leading us on asking for the obvious?!

Anyhow, here's my take on it because I haven't seen this answer before.
I'd say basically a (modern!) cannon fires a round for area effects!
That is any shell different from a simple bullet, tracer or incendiary round.
This explains why most cannons have a larger tube diameter! It's only because the shells are more complex, contain explosives, and are therefore automatically bigger.

Btw: this is using the term 'cannon' as a generic term for howitzers, mortars and cannons.

As exception to the rule (?) I was thinking of the auto-cannon (e.g. GAU-8_Avenger) firing armor piercing shells in an anti-tank role. Although that gun also fires high explosive shells. Another exception could be the handheld grenade launcher type of weapon.

Modern development of more advanced 'simple' bullets does complicate matters a little more I'm afraid!? [8|]
See: http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/11/what-if-a-snipe/ and the associated EXACTO link.



AW1Steve -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 12:20:19 PM)

What is a cannon? Whatever the guy who prints the dictionary says it is! [:D] 



PMCN -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 12:32:44 PM)

Gun's are high velocity and Howitzers are low velocity.  At least in the commonwealth.  Gun batteries were used for counter battery fire for example.
AA guns, AT guns, Tank guns etc.  Though the 75 mm in Lee/Grants I have seen called a howitzer while the 75 mm in a Pz IV D/E was always called a gun.  Even though both fire a low velocity round.  I think that "gun" is often used generically for any ordinance that isn't small arms, and even then you have machine guns rather than machine rifles.
Mortar's are a category onto themselves.

The difference between a cannon and a machine gun for air craft weapon nomenclature may be the feed originally.  The early cannons were drum or magazine fed and the later ones adopted a belt.  But I suspect the original cannons used on air craft were large caliber drum/magazine fed weapons that are clearly different from a belt fed machine gun.  Why they chose to call it a cannon I don't really know but compared to say a 0.303 or 7.62 mm MG the statement "That is a freak'n cannon, man!" or something close to it might have come up in the discussion.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 3:23:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

From Tony Williams http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm
The Germans were not satisfied with the MG-FFM, which had been adopted as an interim measure pending the development of a purpose-designed cannon. This duly emerged as the Mauser MG 151, which gradually took over from 1941. Initially, the Mauser had been designed to use a high-velocity 15 mm cartridge, but it saw relatively little service in this form. Wartime experience led to the cartridge case being modified to accept the 20 mm shells from the MG-FFM, surrendering muzzle velocity and penetration in the interests of far greater destructive effect. The 15 mm version was available with HE shells, but they were considered too small. The resulting MG 151/20 was intermediate in size, weight and muzzle velocity between the MG-FFM and the Hispano, but was faster-firing at 12 rps. It was a superb design which the Americans tried to copy, producing some 300 guns in .60 inch (15.2 mm) calibre, designated T17, but they never adopted it.



Perfect answer to the one conundrum in my original statement. Which means that in WWII A/C armament terms, the answer is:

"Cannons fire explosive shells, MG's don't."



d0mbo -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 3:47:13 PM)

I wouldn't dare to put forward a rhetorical question. or would I? [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaroen


quote:

ORIGINAL: d0mbo

Gents, do we have come to a conclusion yet? Sleep deprivation is truely killing me [>:]





Somehow I was thinking you were leading us on asking for the obvious?!





Erkki -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 3:54:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

From Tony Williams http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/CannonMGs.htm
The Germans were not satisfied with the MG-FFM, which had been adopted as an interim measure pending the development of a purpose-designed cannon. This duly emerged as the Mauser MG 151, which gradually took over from 1941. Initially, the Mauser had been designed to use a high-velocity 15 mm cartridge, but it saw relatively little service in this form. Wartime experience led to the cartridge case being modified to accept the 20 mm shells from the MG-FFM, surrendering muzzle velocity and penetration in the interests of far greater destructive effect. The 15 mm version was available with HE shells, but they were considered too small. The resulting MG 151/20 was intermediate in size, weight and muzzle velocity between the MG-FFM and the Hispano, but was faster-firing at 12 rps. It was a superb design which the Americans tried to copy, producing some 300 guns in .60 inch (15.2 mm) calibre, designated T17, but they never adopted it.



Perfect answer to the one conundrum in my original statement. Which means that in WWII A/C armament terms, the answer is:

"Cannons fire explosive shells, MG's don't."




Not always: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/9381076497?r=9381076497#9381076497

And like I said at least the Russians used them too, in both aircraft armament as well as machine guns and rifles used by the infantry.



Central Blue -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 4:31:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Let's see if I can hijack this thread:
What is the better aircraft armament. A large number of heavy caliber machine guns or smaller machine guns and cannons? Why did everybody else (Brit's , Japs, Germans and Russians) use the small machine gun cannon setup and the American's use the 4,6,8 x 50 cal setup?



for weight of fire fans it's the cannon. The US Navy switched to 20mm ASAP after WWII. Table on weight of fire for various WWII aircraft here: http://users.skynet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/fgun/fgun-ta.html



Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 6:13:50 PM)

To add little confusion, Poland rearmed few of their tankettes with 20mm heaviest machine gun :)




fbs -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 8:51:14 PM)

gun
mid-14c., gunne "an engine of war that throws rocks, arrows or other missiles," probably a shortening of woman's name Gunilda, found in M.E. gonnilde "cannon" and in an Anglo-L. reference to a specific gun from a 1330 munitions inventory of Windsor Castle ("...una magna balista de cornu quae Domina Gunilda ..."), from O.N. Gunnhildr, woman's name (from gunnr + hildr, both meaning "war, battle"); the identification of women with powerful weapons is common historically (cf. Big Bertha, Brown Bess, etc.); meaning shifted with technology, from cannons to firearms as they developed 15c. Great guns (cannon, etc.) distinguished from small guns (such as muskets) from c.1400. First applied to pistols and revolvers 1744. Meaning "thief, rascal" is from 1858. The verb meaning "to shoot with a gun" is from 1620s; the sense of "to accelerate an engine" is from 1930. Gun-shy is 1884, originally of sporting dogs. Son of a gun is originally nautical. Gun-metal (commonly an alloy of copper and zinc) used attributively of a dull blue-gray color since 1905.

cannon
c.1400, "tube for projectiles," from O.Fr. canon (14c.), from It. cannone "large tube," augmentive of L. canna "reed, tube" (see cane). Cannon fodder (1891) translates Ger. kanonenfutter (cf. Shakespeare's food for powder in "I Hen. IV"). Spelling not differentiated from canon till c.1800. Cannon ball is from 1660s.



gladiatt -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 8:51:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

To add little confusion, Poland rearmed few of their tankettes with 20mm heaviest machine gun :)



[:D][:D].
Ok i'll make it like friend Steve. Does it make BOOM or Rat-tat-tat-tat ?



Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: What makes a cannon... a cannon? (4/14/2010 10:24:07 PM)

I think it makes rat....rat....rat...



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