KB - Historical Use or Split (Full Version)

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Coulsdon Eagle -> KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 7:21:38 PM)

Very much a new boy here, but 20+ years ago I cut my Pacific teeth on the old Victory Games "Pacific War" board game, which shares many similarities with WITP, although obviously pitched at a human, not microchip, level!

I have two questions regarding the use of KB post-PH.

1. A policy I used on occasions on the board was to split KB in the early months, immediately sending two CVs to Truk from the PH raid (assuming no-one ran into the US CV TFs); 4 CVs would ensure the DEI fell in early 1942; then 2 CVs would push East towards Port Moresby; whilst the remaining two CVs would link up with CVLs to base at Singapore and raid the Indian Ocean, hopefully smashing the British fleet if the RN came out of Ceylon. Then leave a small force of CVLs, BBs & CAs to watch the Brits and prepare for the decisive battle around the Solomons.

Has anyone tried a similar tactic in WITP? Or is the Japanese player inviting defeat by detail? I would welcome your opinions.

2. Has anyone followed the historial use of KB - keeping it together, flattening the DEI, then seeking to annihilate the Royal Navy off Ceylon? Did you achieve better or worse results than Yamamoto in the short-term and what happened as the game unfolded?



JWE -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 8:18:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coulsdon Eagle
Very much a new boy here, but 20+ years ago I cut my Pacific teeth on the old Victory Games "Pacific War" board game, which shares many similarities with WITP, although obviously pitched at a human, not microchip, level!

I have two questions regarding the use of KB post-PH.

1. A policy I used on occasions on the board was to split KB in the early months, immediately sending two CVs to Truk from the PH raid (assuming no-one ran into the US CV TFs); 4 CVs would ensure the DEI fell in early 1942; then 2 CVs would push East towards Port Moresby; whilst the remaining two CVs would link up with CVLs to base at Singapore and raid the Indian Ocean, hopefully smashing the British fleet if the RN came out of Ceylon. Then leave a small force of CVLs, BBs & CAs to watch the Brits and prepare for the decisive battle around the Solomons.

Has anyone tried a similar tactic in WITP? Or is the Japanese player inviting defeat by detail? I would welcome your opinions.

2. Has anyone followed the historial use of KB - keeping it together, flattening the DEI, then seeking to annihilate the Royal Navy off Ceylon? Did you achieve better or worse results than Yamamoto in the short-term and what happened as the game unfolded?

This question has several answers depending on how you wish to play. Lots of "wargamers" stack the KB up and use it to the limits of what the game allows. Other people tend to split it up into task-based units, and use them nominally.

All depends on who you are and how you wish to play. That's the real beauty of this game.

I tend to get tactical, after opening day, and have had some real good success. Our style might not be yours, but it sure works for us. Please take the nattering 'wargamer' posts with a grain of salt, it's not as bad (or good) as they would have you believe.



ChickenOfTheSea -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 8:52:58 PM)

Agree with JWE that there are a lot of ways for players to use the KB. You will see several players adopting your historical option 2. Some keep it together for maximum firepower, some divide it into 2 CV divisions. Sometimes early in the war I will divide it into a slow (but not that slow) KB with Akagi and Kaga with a couple of BB's and a fast KB with the other four carriers and CA's. The biggest difficulty when dividing the KB is finding enough escort DD's to keep the subs at bay.




crsutton -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 9:22:04 PM)

When I feel like I am strong enough to fight KB (All six carriers w/upgraded air groups and AA) my deepest and fondest hope is to catch KB split in two....I am pretty sure I can whip KB then.

So the answer depends. I would not recommend splitting KB if you have not already sunk an Allied carrier or two, or unless you know exactly where the Allied carriers are.



khyberbill -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 9:49:59 PM)

quote:

I would not recommend splitting KB if you have not already sunk an Allied carrier or two, or unless you know exactly where the Allied carriers are.

I concur, for instance in a recent PBEM my esteemed foe was trying to take out the British Fleet at Ceylon. The British fleet was on R&R in Karachi and the Japanese fleet (4CVL's) was ambushed on the way back to Singapore by 4 American CV's.



PresterJohn001 -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 10:45:52 PM)

Pacific Wars a good game, picked it up a couple of months ago, nice system with command points limiting operations. However even with the the task force system in PW i think there is a lot more fog of war in WITP AE so you risk running into a concentration of allied carriers that can seriously hammer the Japanese carrier fleet. That said i split the KB into two groups of 3 CVs and added a CVL to make 2 decent carrier forces that could operate until March say. Of course you have to consider your opponent, how he operates his carriers and what intel he has on your carriers. Lots of room for bluff and double bluff.

Empire of the Sun / Fire in the Sky, would like to get both these boardgames and maybe even Burma as an OCS game, but the Desert or Russian theatres probably appeal somewhat more for OCS(Burma is supposed to be very good tho). An opponent would be nice too!!!



John 3rd -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 10:51:31 PM)

See the Thread started by Chickenboy entitled:  PH or Manila?  There is a very solid discussion on this topic and options for the KB.



Q-Ball -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 11:26:40 PM)

Indeed, John 3rd is right. The answer depends on the time.

Through January 1942, there are only 3 operational USN CVs in the Pacific, and not enough Wildcats to go around. Go ahead and SPLIT KB, because 4 IJN CVs are more than enough to handle the full USN contingent.

You have to use more caution though after March, by which time the F2A should be off all the CVs, and 5 USN CVs are potentially available.




Ketza -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/13/2010 11:53:51 PM)

Well it depends on your goals and tempo.

If you want a very fast invasion tempo with a tad bit of risk early splitting KB is going to allow you to gobble things up more quickly. Splitting it also gives you the advantage early of the allies not exactly sure of where and when they can commit their own CVS id one of your divisions goes poof for a time.

If you want to play it safe and crush a certain area safely keep it togther. When you do this however it gives the allies the opportunity to do something where you are not...

This is what leads you back to what are your own goals.

Regardless after march 1942 or so you should recombine the units if you had split them. There are many aar disasters that show what can happen if your caught split.

Also I suggest reading the book Shattered Sword. There are a few chapters dedicated to discussing strategic mistakes made by Japan with the real KB that actually apply to this game. 



findmeifyoucan -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 1:10:02 AM)

For me, well it all depends what the American player does of course. If he splits then I split but I always like to maintain that numerical advantage in Carriers while I have it in the first 6 months of the war. Joining up all the CVE's and CVL's for the DEI seems to work good for me lately to be joined by the slower large CV Akagi I think is her name and keeping the other 5 fast CV's together just in case 2 or 3 American Carriers show up all together wanting to play.
Ceylon I think is too far to go and puts my Carriers out of action for too long allowing the Americans free reign elsewhere. But in this way I really have two nice sized KB's, one a little slower than the other. Now if the Americans want to split their Carriers then I split mine and then I have 4 KB's!! :-))

I have been recently successful in taking Rebaul early and sinking lots of American transports in and about Port Moresby with my KB as the Americans always seem to like to send lots of troops there with lots of transports. Easy pickings for my Kate's and Vals!



Chickenboy -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 1:12:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Indeed, John 3rd is right. The answer depends on the time.

Through January 1942, there are only 3 operational USN CVs in the Pacific, and not enough Wildcats to go around. Go ahead and SPLIT KB, because 4 IJN CVs are more than enough to handle the full USN contingent.

You have to use more caution though after March, by which time the F2A should be off all the CVs, and 5 USN CVs are potentially available.



This makes perfect sense. However, I'm a bit of a coward about being surprised by an USN CV force, even in the early going. I tend to want to keep them together as my big hammer as well as for mutual protection.

By April 1942, you can get a decent KB part deux going. 3 CVEs, 3 CVLs and CV Junyo can make a potent 2 CVTF force. "Chain" them together in two distinct TFs, one following the other and they can put 215 or so planes in the air. They're not made of as stern stuff as the KB, so are more prone to damage / destruction, but it can be a useful adjunct where speed and overwhelming striking power may not hold primacy.



John 3rd -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 6:25:53 AM)

Tend to think you may exceed March 42 for another month or two but it is dangerous. 

If you rush Shoho, Junyo, and Hiyo, your CV strength should be 8 CV and 3 CVL.  I don't include the CVEs.  You could create two striking forces of 4 CV and 2 CVL.  My composition is normally CarDiv2, CarDiv5, 2 CVL (320 Planes) and the other would have CarDiv1, Junyo/Hiyo, and 2 CVL (300 Planes).  The Second Kido Butai would be slower but pack quite a punch.

Only issue is getting to June for all these CV/CVLs to be complete and ready to go...



topeverest -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 3:44:04 PM)

Coulsdon Eagle,

Good posts here. I agree that A lot of how you will pursue the early war depends on your goals as Japs and how the Allied player in trying to disrupt you. I think of the options in three basic chunks
1. - super navy - in this you keep your entire navy essentially intact (within a short distance of itself) and drive the enemy from you whereever you see it. This works well where the allies are showing a desire to fight and you have particularly localized goals.
2. - 50/50 - in this you split your carriers and BB's into two groups (either fast / slow or even / even). this allows you a force that cannot be matched by the allies on the sea or in the air, and you pursue two axes of advance at the same time. Works well when allies are less aggressive and / or you have more broad objectives.
3. - thirds - In this strategy, you split your navy into thirds and assign objectives. Generally speaking, you can make the carrier and naval forces equal, but that probably isnt necessary, as DEI does not require the same level of carrier support if you plan you advances well enough to deploy your betty and nell fleets. This works very well where the enemy is placid.

Anyway, the fun of it is in the doing. I am not a big fan of deploying a large carrier force into the Inidian Ocean unless there is a particuarly valuable reason to do so.



vlcz -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 4:02:46 PM)

As said it is all about your choice and the kind of opponent you are facing. My personal choice is split them against all but the most agresive opponent (that ones who are really going to try a midway on the KB) . My personal reason is that Ii want to encourage a fight -even at  3:4 odds- against devastators carrying american CVs.  I think Japan has much to gain if manages to be the only side with fleet CV until Jul43 (and the Essexs)for a time.





John 3rd -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 6:31:55 PM)

This is the thing that fascinates me---vlcz.  The entire point of my Reluctant Admiral Mod, that we're finishing right now, is what would the Japanese been able to do with a better Circle Four Program and reprioritized Naval Industry?  Mighty interesting thinking for the Japanese player.

LOVE choices!



crsutton -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 6:56:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Indeed, John 3rd is right. The answer depends on the time.

Through January 1942, there are only 3 operational USN CVs in the Pacific, and not enough Wildcats to go around. Go ahead and SPLIT KB, because 4 IJN CVs are more than enough to handle the full USN contingent.

You have to use more caution though after March, by which time the F2A should be off all the CVs, and 5 USN CVs are potentially available.





Yes, but quite frankly any Allied use of carriers in most any situation during this time period is probably foolish.



Q-Ball -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 11:24:02 PM)

The availability of TBFs is another factor, as mentioned. Another is the 4/42 AA upgrades that all the USN cruisers and many DDs get.

The Allies slowly gain overall CV capability until about August 1942 it is optimized, with the arrival of WASP, all AA upgrades, the TBF, and enough SBDs and F4Fs to equip all airgroups. The first 6 months of 1942, the USN is always a bit short-handed; in CVs, planes, or something. You have to have a REAL good reason to want to take on KB with the USN CVs those first few months. I wouldnt' do it.

An overlooked factor for the Allies: You have very limited pools of CV planes, the Japanese can increase production. Even in a bloody exchange where nothing sinks, the IJN can more quickly recover it's strike capability than the Allies. If you lose dozens of Wildcats or SBDs, you can be handicapped for months. Another reason the USN should think very carefully about an early battle.



John 3rd -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/14/2010 11:43:16 PM)

Good comment.  We just wiped out a group of 32 SBD in Shipwreck and I am sure that will hurt the American CV cause.



Zemke -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/16/2010 8:38:49 PM)

Early on this is not a bad tactic, but by June 42 or later if you have not sunk any of the American carriers, then you are asking for something really bad to happen. Remember once you lose those Japanese heavy carriers, you are toast, the Allies have nothing to fear from then on.



Coulsdon Eagle -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/18/2010 2:56:15 PM)

Thank you to everyone who took the time & effort to respond to my questions.

I agree that one of the entertaining aspects is that the player can make his own decisions and investigate new strategies. As I will be playing against the AI I will have the luxury of testing these out and not being too upset when my carriers litter the ocean floor!

Interesting to note that no-one is a proponent of the Indian Ocean strike as it occurred in 1942. With the Royal Navy tied down in the Med, Atlantic & Arctic that's not really surprising. It would take quite some work to build up the Indian Ocean Fleet into a strike force capable of threatening Singapore & the DEI. Could the Japanese have found a better use of KB?

It was nice to note that at least one other person had fond memories of "Pacific War". It is difficult to believe that I purchased that game nearly 25 years ago! One of the reasons I purchased WITP:AE was to have the same sense of fun without having to play both sides, or leave a huge map with hundreds of counters up for weeks where the Allied secret weapon, the moggy, could get at it. Or, on one notable occasion, to drown New Zealand with a cup of tea...



Marcus_Antonius -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/18/2010 6:39:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Coulsdon Eagle

Interesting to note that no-one is a proponent of the Indian Ocean strike as it occurred in 1942. With the Royal Navy tied down in the Med, Atlantic & Arctic that's not really surprising. It would take quite some work to build up the Indian Ocean Fleet into a strike force capable of threatening Singapore & the DEI. Could the Japanese have found a better use of KB?



Honestly, thru early '42 I think its hard to justify keeping the KB massed together. There is really nothing you need to use THAT much firepower against. And once you show where they all are, you free up the allies to use their carriers more aggressively in other areas.

The British are as good a target as any, but I think likely payoff is too small to justify sending the carriers that far out.

The Americans are the real threat. Anything you can do to lure them into an early carrier battle is worth a reasonable amount of risk. In the early part of the war I think you want to have your carriers running all over the place. Put in an appearance, provide support for a few days, then pull back to rearm and head somewhere else to do the same. Most of the time you keep them out of sight somewhere between Cam Rahn Bay, Truk and the Home Islands. The fear of them suddenly appearing will keep the allies honest with their carriers early war.





Miller -> RE: KB - Historical Use or Split (4/18/2010 7:46:28 PM)

I think the Jap player can get away with it for the first few months, but after that splitting them up can lead to disaster.

In my PBEM in April 42 I had split off Shokaku and Zuikaku from the other four CVs, which were attacked by four US and a British CV. All four were hit, and only the fact they were a hex away from a decent sized port saved them from heavy damage or sinking. Even then, that was the end of my expansion plans.



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