Give me a break

Give me a break (Full Version)

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Sigh -> Give me a break (4/14/2010 4:43:21 AM)
1. Go through the terrible interface to que up a resort station and the 4 research stations next to a black hole (make sure u do the resort first since it doesnt show up in the que menu!) 2. Watch an escort that had the mission to protect said constructor fly directly into the black hole 3. Watch constructor disappear from system only to re-appear somewhere out in deep space (no im not mistaken i WATCHED this happen). It still has the mission to build the stations but is flying in the opposite direction 4. Get pissed about paying 65 dollars because "i want to support indie developers" If there is some reason you are supposed to stay away from black holes (maybe until a technology is developed?) so be it. But TELL me this in the galactopedia and also tell me why in gods name the AI would send an automated constructor (+ escort) there. I wonder how may ships the AI loses to this crap (Btw the reason this gets me so worked up is not only the money... maybe the patches will fix the game some day and the money will had been worth it. Its also the fact that i start a game and play from anywhere between a few mins and hours and then this crap happens. There is no way for me to be ready for it.. So I quit. sorry all the atmosphere and the "feeling" disappears then. So i WASTED all the time i invested in the game.. I could be programming or playing Europa Universalis or masturbating in that time)

2ndACR -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 6:02:09 AM)
How about answering Eriks call in the main forum area for new beta testers and maybe help solve the issues you are having.

korenzel -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 6:12:51 AM)
You can build stuff near a black hole, just not right on top of it. The construction must be outside its area of effect. Make sure you build outside the purple area in the system map or your ship will slowly get pulled in. As long as it's in deep space nearby, you'll get the research or scenic bonus and your base will be safe. You don't need any fancy technology.

Sigh -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 6:19:12 AM)
Didnt build anything on the hole. I built a ways off. (Although fairly close since there is no way of knowing what is too close [8\|] ) The main issue here is: a) Ships just always flying in straight lines (never avoiding holes/storms) b) My constructors disappearing and re-appearing all over the place (this has happened more then once). In fact one ship re-appeared OFF of the Map... but re entered it soon after

Fishman -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 7:15:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 2ndACR How about answering Eriks call in the main forum area for new beta testers and maybe help solve the issues you are having. There's a call in the main forum area for new beta testers? I don't see anything. Because apparently, the old beta testers sucked.

korenzel -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 10:44:12 AM)
You have three ways to know the area of effect of black holes: - look at the mini map in the lower right corner. You'll see a purple disk. - select the black hole and look at the purple line surrounding it. - pay attention to your construction ship when it starts building, if it moves at all during construction, it's too close. You can build quite far from the hole and still reap the benefits. Not too far obviously, but the area should be considered deep space, the mission log should say "Build base at K, K", not "Build base at black hole X" .

Sigh -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 10:48:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: korenzel You have three ways to know the area of effect of black holes: - look at the mini map in the lower right corner. You'll see a purple disk. - select the black hole and look at the purple line surrounding it. - pay attention to your construction ship when it starts building, if it moves at all during construction, it's too close. You can build quite far from the hole and still reap the benefits. Not too far obviously, but the area should be considered deep space, the mission log should say "Build base at K, K", not "Build base at black hole X" . Ok i dont trust the minimap as i recall that being "off" in some instances (it seems like it doesnt refresh correctly) but i didnt think about the selection line surrounding it. thanks I have better things to do then sit staring at a constructor for signs of movement indicating false placement though ;)

Erik Rutins -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 2:53:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sigh 2. Watch an escort that had the mission to protect said constructor fly directly into the black hole Thanks for the report on this, that's definitely something that deserves a tweak. quote: 3. Watch constructor disappear from system only to re-appear somewhere out in deep space (no im not mistaken i WATCHED this happen). It still has the mission to build the stations but is flying in the opposite direction It was almost certainly going to gather resources so that it could actually fulfill your build requests. Regards, - Erik

Fishman -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 3:32:39 PM)
Other quirks of constructors and black holes is that if you order a constructor to build a research base near a black hole, for certain combinations of "near" and cases of bad luck, the constructor will drop out of warp inside gravity well of the black hole (people call it the event horizon: This is wrong, because nothing can escape the event horizon, and you can definitely escape this), and will then attempt to thrust towards the construction site on its conventional drives: If the conventional drives are insufficient to counteract the gravitational pull of the black hole, the constructor is slowly pulled to its death, rather than escaping by jumping to warp. quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins It was almost certainly going to gather resources so that it could actually fulfill your build requests. On this subject: Occasionally, a constructor will gather resources to fulfill a build request, but due to shortages and distribution failures, all the resources cannot be found, so the constructor will start the construction project anyway, and then stall indefinitely because it lacks the resources to finish a component, instead of leaving the construction project to gather the resources it needs to continue. If ordered to halt construction and then resume, it will gather the requisite resources, but it will not do so on its own without manual intervention. If the constructor was automated and picked this project automatically, the player may not even know to look for it as he is not expecting something to be built, and therefore has no expectation that the project should finish. On a usability note, if a construction project cannot progress for some reason and would stall, something should appear on the UI to indicate that something has gone wrong and what it is. As it stands, the only way to notice that a construction is stalled is to wonder "Hey, didn't I order that like years ago? Whatever happened to it?"...and even then, there is nothing you can apparently do about it because there is no way to manually transport emergency supplies. WHICH THERE SHOULD BE.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 3:35:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman Other quirks of constructors and black holes is that if you order a constructor to build a research base near a black hole, for certain combinations of "near" and cases of bad luck, the constructor will drop out of warp inside gravity well of the black hole (people call it the event horizon: This is wrong, because nothing can escape the event horizon, and you can definitely escape this), and will then attempt to thrust towards the construction site on its conventional drives: If the conventional drives are insufficient to counteract the gravitational pull of the black hole, the constructor is slowly pulled to its death, rather than escaping by jumping to warp. Yes, one of the things on the list to tweak is to have the jump exit further from the event horizon. quote: On this subject: Occasionally, a constructor will gather resources to fulfill a build request, but due to shortages and distribution failures, all the resources cannot be found, so the constructor will start the construction project anyway, and then stall indefinitely because it lacks the resources to finish a component, instead of leaving the construction project to gather the resources it needs to continue. If ordered to halt construction and then resume, it will gather the requisite resources, but it will not do so on its own without manual intervention. If the constructor was automated and picked this project automatically, the player may not even know to look for it as he is not expecting something to be built, and therefore has no expectation that the project should finish. That's not entirely true - the first part is correct, but construction will not stall indefinitely. We've tested this specifically and what we see happening is that a private freighter will eventually bring the missing resources to the constructor so that it can finish the project (assuming whatever shortage caused it to start without them is now resolved so that the private sector has enough to distribute). Regards, - Erik

Fishman -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 4:07:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins That's not entirely true - the first part is correct, but construction will not stall indefinitely. We've tested this specifically and what we see happening is that a private freighter will eventually bring the missing resources to the constructor so that it can finish the project (assuming whatever shortage caused it to start without them is now resolved so that the private sector has enough to distribute). Yes, but in that event, my point still stands: "Eventually" is not what I call a definite time for when this happens, so yes, the project remains stalled indefinitely. The Constructor sits there like a useless log until some event "eventually" happens at some possible point in the indefinite future, instead of DOING SOMETHING, or at least notifying the player, that his pet project has stalled. The fact that I can notice this problem and resolve it by restarting the order manually before this "eventually" occurs is not good. This is a problem: Some mysterious event has prevented the player's will from being executed, and the player is not informed of this fact or what it is, and is not given the option to do anything about it. You might imagine how this is immensely frustrating, especially given that a lot of people who play these sorts of games are control freaks: Normal people aren't exactly into crushing the galaxy beneath their jackbooted heel and find this sort of thing quite boring. Having things mysteriously go wrong and NOT BEING INFORMED of them is pretty much guaranteed to get under the skin of the kind of people who play these games.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 4:17:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman Yes, but in that event, my point still stands: "Eventually" is not what I call a definite time for when this happens, so yes, the project remains stalled indefinitely. The Constructor sits there like a useless log until some event "eventually" happens at some possible point in the indefinite future, instead of DOING SOMETHING, or at least notifying the player, that his pet project has stalled. If the project will resume once the resources are available, why should the player be bothered about it? I agree that a prolonged resource shortage should produce some kind of notification, that's actually one of our of planned improvements. But if there is no shortage, there's just a delay, do you really want an additional message about that? quote: The fact that I can notice this problem and resolve it by restarting the order manually before this "eventually" occurs is not good. I agree in principle, but perhaps the ship was already on the way? I agree that "eventually" should not go on too long, but there is going to be some inefficiency in any automated system. quote: This is a problem: Some mysterious event has prevented the player's will from being executed, and the player is not informed of this fact or what it is, and is not given the option to do anything about it. I think an experienced player will know very quickly why construction is not proceeding. If he's really curious he can see if the shortage is resolved and whether a private ship is already on the way. quote: You might imagine how this is immensely frustrating, especially given that a lot of people who play these sorts of games are control freaks: Normal people aren't exactly into crushing the galaxy beneath their jackbooted heel and find this sort of thing quite boring. Having things mysteriously go wrong and NOT BEING INFORMED of them is pretty much guaranteed to get under the skin of the kind of people who play these games. I think there are actually a lot of different play styles. Some folks would prefer more automation and just won't worry about this as long as it resolves itself. Others want less automation and more notification. We aim to support all those options so we'll plan to improve notification of events like this as soon as we can.

Fishman -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 5:20:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins If the project will resume once the resources are available, why should the player be bothered about it? Because players don't like it when things mysteriously don't work and no explanation is given. Whether you are a more hands-on player or a hands-off player, no one likes it when things just mysteriously die and no explanation is given. It also doesn't help your debugging efforts when issues are reported as bugs because the player has no idea what the hell is supposed to be happening. quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins But if there is no shortage, there's just a delay, do you really want an additional message about that? Quite possibly, yes. Someone may have just failed me for the last time, and I am not as forgiving as Vader is. In any event, I wish to be able to ascertain at a glance somehow that something has gone wrong and why. If a construction project is stalled for some reason in the queue, perhaps it can be displayed in some indicator color indicating the severity of failure and a tooltip can appear indicating what, precisely, has gone wrong, so I can tell why nothing is happening. quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins I agree in principle, but perhaps the ship was already on the way? I agree that "eventually" should not go on too long, but there is going to be some inefficiency in any automated system. Of course, since the game does absolutely nothing to inform you of anything of this. There is absolutely nothing to indicate whether this particular thing has occurred, where that ship is, or when it will get here. If this is what is happening, perhaps a tooltip can inform the player whether a ship is actually dealing with this problem, what it is named so that the player can find it, and when it is expected to show up. Otherwise, there is absolutely no way of knowing what the hell just happened and when the game is going to get off its ass and do something about it. The game clearly already knows all this information, otherwise there would be a swarm of confused ships showing up with the same resources, so why isn't it letting us know that it is handling this? quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins I think an experienced player will know very quickly why construction is not proceeding. If he's really curious he can see if the shortage is resolved and whether a private ship is already on the way. Really, now? Because I'm pretty sure I qualify as an experienced player, and it is only through carefully poring through tables of numbers that I was able to find out why this is happening, and if there's a method of finding out whether the offending situation is being dealt with, nobody has bothered to tell us about it, and it is not at all obvious where such information might be! quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins I think there are actually a lot of different play styles. Some folks would prefer more automation and just won't worry about this as long as it resolves itself. Others want less automation and more notification. I am definitely an automator. I want things to be done. I don't want to concern myself with the pesky details of how it is going to be done. In fact, I am actively engaged in writing automation into games that did not previously support it. But when something is NOT being done, I want to know exactly why it is that my orders are not being carried out, what is being done about this, and who is to be punished for this outrage.

korenzel -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 5:24:42 PM)
I've found that constructions can stall indefinitely if the material needed is from a source far away. No freighter will ever bring it to the construction ship, since the AI doesn't do refuelling stops. I had several mines in my latest games that required chromium for the energy collectors and torpedoes, but the only source was on the other end of the galaxy. The projects lasted for years until I fixed it by building a "chromium cargo", basically a ship filled with energy collectors, at the chromium-rich world, and disassembled it at the space port near the construction projects. Ordering the construction ships to repair the stations then made them jump to the spaceport to get the much needed metal. It's possibly not an issue with the latest hyperdrive or many fuel cells in freighters, but when they have limited range it can certainly become one.

Fishman -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 5:44:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: korenzel The projects lasted for years until I fixed it by building a "chromium cargo", basically a ship filled with energy collectors, at the chromium-rich world, and disassembled it at the space port near the construction projects. Very creative of you. One more reason why we need an interface and option for explicitly transporting goods. Perhaps there should be an option for "dock with target", whereupon the docked ship remains docked until you give it another order which requires that you undock, and while docked, you can then load or unload cargo as you wish, either to offload all that Caslon you're not ever going to use because no one still uses Caslon-fuelled reactors and it is only used as a construction material, or because you want to load up on construction supplies for a major construction project elsewhere. quote: ORIGINAL: korenzel Ordering the construction ships to repair the stations then made them jump to the spaceport to get the much needed metal. I think this is what really fixed the problem. Ordering your construction ships to abort and continue the project triggers them to go and fetch the supplies they need to actually carry it out.

korenzel -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 5:56:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman I think this is what really fixed the problem. Ordering your construction ships to abort and continue the project triggers them to go and fetch the supplies they need to actually carry it out. Not entirely, I tried many times to order them to abort and resume construction. While the needed material is not available at the nearest spaceport, they'll just go back to the construction site and keep trying to build, obviously with no results.

FerretStyle -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 6:29:08 PM)
It may be hard to see but those "gray lines" that are over systems you have no ships in also appear over black holes, and you can see just how far out you have to build your bases if you look at those. It's actually really, really far out.

Fishman -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 7:19:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: korenzel Not entirely, I tried many times to order them to abort and resume construction. While the needed material is not available at the nearest spaceport, they'll just go back to the construction site and keep trying to build, obviously with no results. Maybe, but construction ships are mobile objects. You couldn't just CHANGE the nearest spaceport by MOVING them?

korenzel -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 8:09:29 PM)
I did try that too. To get their construction materials, ships go to the space port nearest the construction site, not the spaceport nearest their current location. One of my ships went from my "chromium" world all the way to the other end of the galaxy, stopped at the spaceport near the mine to be completed, didn't find any chromium there and tried to repair the station with no progress. Stupid [8\|].

Sigh -> RE: Give me a break (4/14/2010 10:59:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins quote: ORIGINAL: Sigh 2. Watch an escort that had the mission to protect said constructor fly directly into the black hole Thanks for the report on this, that's definitely something that deserves a tweak. quote: 3. Watch constructor disappear from system only to re-appear somewhere out in deep space (no im not mistaken i WATCHED this happen). It still has the mission to build the stations but is flying in the opposite direction It was almost certainly going to gather resources so that it could actually fulfill your build requests. Regards, - Erik Shouldnt it do that before traveling lightyears to another system????

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