Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (Full Version)

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squatter -> Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 6:00:39 PM)


I've played my share of strategy games in my ever-lengthening existence, both board and computer based.

But one thing has been clear to me ever since my first PBEM game of Korsun Pocket several years ago: SSG's Decisive Battles system is by far an away the best designed system I have ever come across. What it has that other games lack is elegance. TAOW might give you enormous flexibility and scenario range. WiTP might give you unparalleled realism and detail.

But for a sophisticated combat system made easy by a superb interface and design, nothing comes close for me (especially to Kharkov/Dnepre, the distillation of what must be a decade of design).

Is there anyone out there who has played a Decisive Battles game in PBEM mode (the only way to truly appreciate the game) who knows of a better hex-based game? If there is, I'd really like to hear about it.

I know I sound like a PR person for SSG, but seriously I'm astounded if there are strategy gamers out there who havent played at least one of the games in this series (unless, of course, its the money that's stopping them). That's like being a fan of Xbox FPS games and never having played a Call Of Duty!!

So, back to the question: is there a better hex-based system out there?





Korzun -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 6:35:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

So, back to the question: is there a better hex-based system out there?




I honestly don't think so. I have played, tried (and sold[:D]) many computer games including the HPS games which I never really enjoyed.



jhdeerslayer -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 6:59:18 PM)

I'm a fan boy.



Hexagon -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 7:36:15 PM)

For me now are better wargames because cover other conflicts not the "boring" WW2, for example i am enjoying FoG (plus RoR and SoA) and have HPS titles in reserve like Renaissance or Nap titles... returning to WW2 i like PzC but are other hex title over this because has a sentimental value for me, i refer to Steel Panthers, the original, first in the serie for me is [&o]

Kharkov for me is "one of the few" but for me isnt in the top 1... top 10 in 6 or 7 position [:)]



Tzar007 -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 8:23:49 PM)

This system is in my opinion the best hex-based, IGOUGO wargame I have ever played. Mind you, HPS Panzer Campaigns are a close second, since I do own and play almost ALL their games except the last one, Sealion 40.

To be fair, the two aren't exactly comparable since HPS is at the battalion/company level/2-hour turns while SSG is at the battalion/regiment level/one-day turn. Although HPS can be more detailed in terms of OOB, the SSG system is more refined and less tedious to play than HPS. It's fluidier, and does not bog you down into microdetails and micromanagement. SSG games are also graphically more pleasant to the eye, although user mods have done a lot to improve the graphical quality on the HPS side.

So for me, the Decisive Battles system comes on top. What's disappointing is the lack of user-created scenarios but that is due to the lack of a proper map-editor (HPS has the same issue, but since they have covered so many theaters, there are maps of almost any WWII theater you can think of already so it makes easier for users to create scenarios).





Lützow -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 8:42:25 PM)

It's at least a very good system and has more flair than rather geneneric games as TOAW or PzC. Already the historical division emblems contribute a lot to immersion and the map is simply beautiful. The one thing I'd like to see improved is a real TOE and casualty numbers instead of 'steps'.

Anyway, AtDII converted me to a SGG fan. Best East Front game I acquired in a long time.



wodin -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 10:39:37 PM)

I'd say if you have the right monitor for the restrictive resolution settings that the SSG games are by far the most attractive. I just prefer my games where each unit has so many soldiers\equipment etc rather than steps....

So from what I've seen over at the War in the East forum that looks like it will be my No1. SSG for graphics is No1 for gameplay I have to say I prefer PzC...due to waht I mentioned above...take the steps away in this game and have actual men\equipment then it would be my No1 choice at present..shame as I own Korsun and BiI and did enjoy them upto a point especially the Moscow scenarios for BiI. Trouble is I now have a 19inch widescreen and the games look bloody awful..



henri51 -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 10:42:17 PM)

I don't know...

Commander Europe at War is not bad, and HOI3 would be the best if it were not so buggy, and Advanced Tactics is fast-moving, flexible and easy to play.The previous AtD was close to the best all-time hex-based turn-based game.The PzC series is excellent but requires a lot of micro-management.

Kohan and Civ4 were also very good, if you are not limited to WW2.

One inconsistency of Kharkov is the artillery: The game is mostly Brigade and battalion level, but the artillery is "independent" and attacks separately from the armor and infantry, which introduces some lack of realism and micro-management. After all, since battalions and brigades never attacked without artillery support, it is a bit unrealistic to have them attack separately, and it might have been simpler to include them in the units as for example CEaW.perhaps the CORPS artillery could have remained separate from the division one, since it is often required for preliminary bombardment (attacks usually began with (sometimes) hours of artillery bombardment).

This is just me, but when I have to spend 3 hours or more on a single move, I find that it is a bit much.[:-]

I am STILL looking for a good successor to Grigsby's War in Russia, where sub-units were included in larger units that were the actual maneuver units, which made the game fluid and kept the unit number to a manageable number. HOI3 is the closest approximation, but IMHO they overdid it by giving control to the player of the actual composition of sub-units, which adds a lot of micro-management to the game.I have no idea what will be in Grigsby's upcoming War in the East, but I am hoping that it will be an improved War in Russia (but I am not counting on it).

If the upcoming HOI3 expansion (Semper Fi) corrects the major defects of HOI3, it COULD be the best WW2 game ever, but I am not counting on it, given the state in which HOI3 was thrown to the public.

The word "best" depends on which criteria you re using. If it is historical accuracy and freedom from bugs, WitP Admiral Ed. probably takes the pole position, for fun factor maybe Advanced tactics, for so-far unfulfilled promise HOI3. AtD2 is probably #1 according to some criteria, but I am not sure which one(s) [:'(]

So what are YOUR criteria?

Henri



lparkh -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 10:49:05 PM)

Is the latest Grigsby War in Russia (new title War in the East) doing what you wish with regard to subunits?



Lützow -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 10:52:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Trouble is I now have a 19inch widescreen and the games look bloody awful..


Are you sure your graphic board does not support image scaling? Nvidia does it for quite a while and Ati implemented this with their recent driver update.



JD Walter -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/16/2010 11:13:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Squatter

Is there anyone out there who has played a Decisive Battles game in PBEM mode (the only way to truly appreciate the game) who knows of a better hex-based game?


No, not at all. SSG has perfected a very elegant system.

quote:

So, back to the question: is there a better hex-based system out there?


On the computer, DBoWW2 is excellent. In the conventional (boardgame) realm, ASL still reigns supreme. There are some very good reasons it is still going strong after over 20 years, while practically every other tactical system has come and gone.



Tzar007 -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/17/2010 3:08:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Trouble is I now have a 19inch widescreen and the games look bloody awful..


Are you sure your graphic board does not support image scaling? Nvidia does it for quite a while and Ati implemented this with their recent driver update.


As he said.

I have two 22" monitors, GeForce 8600 GTS. Kharkov is displaying really well because the image is scaled automatically. Don't know which graphics card you have, but if you haven't done so, make sure you've got the latest video software and drivers updated. Otherwise, you can also try to use an application that will switch your resolution automatically when you start Kharkov and switch it back when you close it, such as Res-O-Matic

The only gripe I have is that Kharkov does not play in windowed mode. Would be really useful to be in windowed mode since I could have the game opened on one monitor and the manual on the other...



Adam Parker -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/17/2010 6:53:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

So, back to the question: is there a better hex-based system out there?


At present the candidates for best hex based PC wargame in personal order are:

SSG - Carriers at War
SSG - Battles in Normandy
SSG - Kharkov/Husky
HPS - Squad Battles Vietnam
HPS - Panzer Campaigns Tobruk 41

Based on forthcoming titles the new contenders will imo be:

Lock n' Load - Heroes of Stalingrad
2by3 - Gary Grigsby's War in the East



Noakesy -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/17/2010 8:01:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatterSo, back to the question: is there a better hex-based system out there?


I would say there's no contest, but I too might be counted as some sort of fan boy so probably not a fair representation.

- I've bought some of the HPS games but they aren't as nice (IMHO), they turn into a bit of a click-fest (although ATD2 is heading that way too maybe), don't look as good either.
- Also bought the Tiller Campaign series which was great for their time, but now are quite dated.
- I was at first excited by Grigsby's War in Russia but the 'counters' look horrible (again IMHO) although the map looks good.

I've seen numerous comparisons usually of SSG and HPS games, and each have their fans and the final comment is usually something along the lines of "each to their own". [:)]



henri51 -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/17/2010 12:27:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Is the latest Grigsby War in Russia (new title War in the East) doing what you wish with regard to subunits?


It's hard to say: WitE units are divisions (which can be broken down to 3 regiments) and each hex is 10 km, Each unit is detailed with respect to content right down to individual squads guns and vehicles, so I guess it is best described as a "monster game".Or perhaps a WitP on land - based on the detailed breakdown of units...[:'(]

My own preference for a game that covers the whole Eastern Front is corps-based maneuver units a la the board game "The Russian Campaign" or WiR. But I will surely buy WitE based on the nice map, and the care which is being put into the game. And maybe I will do as I do with WitP (and AtD2 sometimes): start up the game and gawk at the map or watch the AI play itself.[8D]

Henri



Noakesy -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/17/2010 12:59:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
My own preference for a game that covers the whole Eastern Front is corps-based maneuver units a la the board game "The Russian Campaign" or WiR. But I will surely buy WitE based on the nice map, and the care which is being put into the game.[8D]
Henri


I'd agree, the map is nice, but maybe it's the way they've orientated the hexegons, and the style of units, but they look very retro given all the design capabilities available to game producers these days. I have The Russian Campaign from the 1970s, and love it, but when I buy a new pc game I expect the designers to go the extra yard. [:)]



wodin -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (4/17/2010 5:33:12 PM)

I do love the SSG counters....and yes I'd be happy to see counters like that in War in the East...but blimey have you seen the detail in that game!!! It blows me away...I will buy it like a shot....as long as the counters show me the info I need I cool...the map is great to.

Again I have to say the counters in SSG games beat all others hands down...but thats just asthetics...



Duck Doc -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/9/2010 5:21:25 PM)

Yes.



hank -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/13/2010 11:52:25 PM)

I don't know but I like it.  I also like other hex based wargames depending on my mood.

But One thing I have noticed, we're getting our butts kicked on the site.  We have two games that came out recently after AtD did; the newest one has surpassed our post count, the other is catching up quick ... and Distant Worlds has blown us away.

How many have been sold?  Is that a taboo question?

just an observation



Otto20000 -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/14/2010 2:13:52 AM)

This is truly the best operational wargame I have played.  I'm trying to get into TOAW but always come back to the SSG games.  Right now I'm playing Battlefront Market garden and as the Germans I just got my King Tigers and have started a huge counter attack.  The Brits are taking a huge beating....It just doesn't get much better than this.



The SSG series has always had low post counts.  If they were not selling they probably would have stopped making more games.



Tzar007 -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/14/2010 2:32:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto20000

The SSG series has always had low post counts.  If the were not selling they probably would have stopped making more games.



SSG has his own forums for their games at ssg.com.au. These are quite active and I think that splits the community and show less interest on the Matrix forums than there is in reality.



htuna -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/14/2010 3:14:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lparkh

Is the latest Grigsby War in Russia (new title War in the East) doing what you wish with regard to subunits?


When does War in the East come out?



wodin -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/14/2010 3:28:05 AM)

The AAR's for WitE have blown my socks off. Immersion is the key for me in operational games as I find they can be quite dry compared to tactical games. I own Korsun Pcoket AtD 1 and BiI and I did really enjoy them but I'm a stickler for seeing how many troops went into battle and seeing casualty figures etc etc....



jjdenver -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/14/2010 1:11:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto20000
The SSG series has always had low post counts. If they were not selling they probably would have stopped making more games.


Unfortunately there is a rather low population that is interested in these sorts of "grognard" level games. There is no instant action/gratification cycle the way that there is in video games on a console or a PC, at least most video games. Action games are easy to immediately get a reward from. If you turn on an FPS shooter you are instantly in action and when you hit that first enemy w/ a burst from your gun it's instant gratification. These also are not beer and pretzels games. I love Panzer General but it's a different sort of game. It doesn't have the staying power of an SSG title for me. I won't drone on about this but you probably get the point.

I like and play all sorts of games from action to strategy to rpg. But I think I and we reading this forum are among the few who really have the patience, attention span, and interest in detail and genre to enjoy games of this sort. So, I wouldn't judge the worth of a game based on post count. It's a niche game and niche market, but it's good.

SSG's games are games I've been playing for decades. I always come back to them.



oldspec4 -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/14/2010 2:20:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Otto20000
The SSG series has always had low post counts. If they were not selling they probably would have stopped making more games.


Unfortunately there is a rather low population that is interested in these sorts of "grognard" level games. There is no instant action/gratification cycle the way that there is in video games on a console or a PC, at least most video games. Action games are easy to immediately get a reward from. If you turn on an FPS shooter you are instantly in action and when you hit that first enemy w/ a burst from your gun it's instant gratification. These also are not beer and pretzels games. I love Panzer General but it's a different sort of game. It doesn't have the staying power of an SSG title for me. I won't drone on about this but you probably get the point.

I like and play all sorts of games from action to strategy to rpg. But I think I and we reading this forum are among the few who really have the patience, attention span, and interest in detail and genre to enjoy games of this sort. So, I wouldn't judge the worth of a game based on post count. It's a niche game and niche market, but it's good.

SSG's games are games I've been playing for decades. I always come back to them.



+1 re: SSG games...although my attention span and patience seems to be decreasing w/ age.



Noakesy -> RE: Is this the best Hex-based system ever? (5/14/2010 5:36:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hank
How many have been sold?  Is that a taboo question?


That's often something I've wondered about, when thinking through "could I ever run a business producing/selling wargames/PC games". I've no idea how many sell, or what the profit margin is (taking into account distributors and all sorts of things), but I guess to any company that is a confidential matter.

I've noticed Matrix/Slitherine match up too, and see that Slitherine MD is Ian McNeil, I used to know an Ian McNeil at Reigate Wargames club years ago (I only went a few times), who was an 'ancients' expert, and I wonder if that's the same one actually? [:)]



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