Running out of fuel? (Full Version)

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msvknight -> Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 4:34:58 AM)

Since loading the latest patch, I am finding that the old bug of subs running out of fuel has returned. Is anyone else finding this too?



viberpol -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 8:15:11 AM)

I do. Every now and then I see a sub stranded in the middle of the ocean with no fuel.
The problem is a sub cannot be refueled from another sub, so if the distance to a base is great, it's doomed.
But I am not sure if they get rid of it with any patch.



topeverest -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 12:04:01 PM)

Pretty sure it is WAD



castor troy -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 12:49:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Pretty sure it is WAD



wad that the subs donīt turn around early enough when being set a patrol zone and therfore running out of fuel? Hmmm...

granted, luckily Iīm experiencing this very very seldome in my games.



Bomber -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 12:59:37 PM)

I have it happen...I tried moving a tanker,and an AO near it to try to get it to fuel but no go....glub,glub



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 1:22:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Pretty sure it is WAD



wad that the subs donīt turn around early enough when being set a patrol zone and therfore running out of fuel? Hmmm...

granted, luckily Iīm experiencing this very very seldome in my games.


Just an idea, but is it possible that, if the routing is set to Safer or Safest, that the path status can change turn-by-turn by reason of the Japanese taking an island, or new LBA being reconned, and the path home suddenly becomes much longer?

I usually don't mess with the routing buttons for subs, but once in awhile I do. Safer vs. Direct can be 100% more hexes sometimes.



topeverest -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 2:53:51 PM)

I only meant that if you run out of fuel at sea sys damage is WAD as far as I know. I dont know about subs failing to return to base in a timely fashion in auto sub operations. I tend to check them every few days so I rarely rely on the auto return function.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 3:28:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

I only meant that if you run out of fuel at sea sys damage is WAD as far as I know. I dont know about subs failing to return to base in a timely fashion in auto sub operations. I tend to check them every few days so I rarely rely on the auto return function.


I understand.

The devs have spoken about this before. It is WAD because there were ways to game or cheat in WITP by linking a sub to a "garbage" merchant whose only duty was to hand around to refuel them and keep them on station for months.

Early in my game, before I understood a lot of the mechanics, I lost seven S-boats by stupidly sending them on a deep mining mission to Rabaul from PH. In WITP a ship out of fuel would move one hex per day with no sys damage. I found out the hard way that AE is different.

Then I read the manual.[:)]



viberpol -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 7:49:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Just an idea, but is it possible that, if the routing is set to Safer or Safest, that the path status can change turn-by-turn by reason of the Japanese taking an island, or new LBA being reconned, and the path home suddenly becomes much longer?
I usually don't mess with the routing buttons for subs, but once in awhile I do. Safer vs. Direct can be 100% more hexes sometimes.


Hmm... I found out the routine in my examples.
Here it is: say, you have a sub with base in Rangoon set on patrol.
If there is fuel in Rangoon everything works perfectly ok.
When it decides there is not enough fuel in tanks, sub terminates patrolling and returns to base, refuel, then restart patrol.
BUT if there is no fuel in Rangoon... what's it doing? Oh, yes.... nonooo, not waiting for fuel in the port.... it switches it's main base and tries to go to... Tokyo regardless of its critical fuel amounts.
[:@]



Don Bowen -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/19/2010 10:48:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: viberpol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Just an idea, but is it possible that, if the routing is set to Safer or Safest, that the path status can change turn-by-turn by reason of the Japanese taking an island, or new LBA being reconned, and the path home suddenly becomes much longer?
I usually don't mess with the routing buttons for subs, but once in awhile I do. Safer vs. Direct can be 100% more hexes sometimes.


Hmm... I found out the routine in my examples.
Here it is: say, you have a sub with base in Rangoon set on patrol.
If there is fuel in Rangoon everything works perfectly ok.
When it decides there is not enough fuel in tanks, sub terminates patrolling and returns to base, refuel, then restart patrol.
BUT if there is no fuel in Rangoon... what's it doing? Oh, yes.... nonooo, not waiting for fuel in the port.... it switches it's main base and tries to go to... Tokyo regardless of its critical fuel amounts.
[:@]



Almost. If there is no fuel avialable the sub will try and refuel at a location that does have fuel. It searches for bases within range that have fuel. IF there is no place available that can fuel the sub, the fall back is always to head to the main base. Subs will never disband into ports without fuel as there is no guaranty that fuel will be come available. This case is pretty much "out of options" for the sub.

Your fuel condition must be really bad?



viberpol -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/20/2010 12:27:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
IF there is no place available that can fuel the sub, the fall back is always to head to the main base. Subs will never disband into ports without fuel as there is no guaranty that fuel will be come available. This case is pretty much "out of options" for the sub.
Your fuel condition must be really bad?


To head to the main base that is out of range 'knowing' it's a suicidal mission because the sys damage will sink my sub in 4-5 turns because of lack of fuel? Now, that's a logic! [;)]

Shouldn't you (if you were commanding this sub) rather wait for fuel to arrive id. est. disband in main port with plenty of support, naval HQ etc...?

[That Rangoon example has been just an example for not to disclose my PBEM opponent where my sub operation is hubbed, but yes, it happens, that at that xx secret location xx the base is out of fuel.
I think it should rather look for the nearest base with fuel or sit in port if the nearest base with fuel is out of current range, but not, for AE sake... [;)] not head 100 hexes to Tokio, as it seems to be working in my game]




Don Bowen -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/20/2010 1:04:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: viberpol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
IF there is no place available that can fuel the sub, the fall back is always to head to the main base. Subs will never disband into ports without fuel as there is no guaranty that fuel will be come available. This case is pretty much "out of options" for the sub.
Your fuel condition must be really bad?


To head to the main base that is out of range 'knowing' it's a suicidal mission because the sys damage will sink my sub in 4-5 turns because of lack of fuel? Now, that's a logic! [;)]

Shouldn't you (if you were commanding this sub) rather wait for fuel to arrive id. est. disband in main port with plenty of support, naval HQ etc...?

[That Rangoon example has been just an example for not to disclose my PBEM opponent where my sub operation is hubbed, but yes, it happens, that at that xx secret location xx the base is out of fuel.
I think it should rather look for the nearest base with fuel or sit in port if the nearest base with fuel is out of current range, but not, for AE sake... [;)] not head 100 hexes to Tokio, as it seems to be working in my game]




What I tried to say was that there is a decision tree which dumps into the "what the hell else can I do" when there is no acceptable alternative. It does look for the nearest base with fuel. I tried to say that too. If there is fuel available at a base, the sub tries to rebase there. If possible, it will refuel enroute. IF IT CAN NOT DO ANY OF THESE IT GIVES UP AND HEADS HOME.



Don Bowen -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/20/2010 3:48:57 AM)


Please go ahead and post the save just before the TF was rebased. I'll take a look.



viberpol -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/20/2010 1:36:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

What I tried to say was that there is a decision tree which dumps into the "what the hell else can I do" when there is no acceptable alternative. It does look for the nearest base with fuel. I tried to say that too. If there is fuel available at a base, the sub tries to rebase there. If possible, it will refuel enroute. IF IT CAN NOT DO ANY OF THESE IT GIVES UP AND HEADS HOME.



Don, I am not complaining.
I kind of a.. find it another trait that says a lot about me as a bad commander... [;)]
Besides I'm hijacking the thread that is not mine.

Here's the save from my recent PBEM game -- the 15th of September. Ro-67 heads for replenishment. The base is out of fuel.
Unfortunately I am at work and do not have the 16th, but I have the next one if you want -- on the 17th it is going to Tokyo.
Truk has some fuel and should be rather the logical new target.



Don Bowen -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/20/2010 3:21:18 PM)


Since Automatic Sub Ops is on, there is a different decision tree.

If Auto Sub was off, the sub would have disbanded into its home port. But, with Auto Sub on, the functions are trying to keep the sub in service. I do believe the decision tree is a bit stunted and gives up too early. Some adjustments might be in order.

However, this is kind of an unusual circumstance - the sub's fuel is very low and the base is completely out of fuel. The sub has only a few hexes of endurance left and there is a check in rebasing to consider bases that can be reached.

The weakness in the decision process is not routing the sub to a closer refueling port even if it can not reach that port without running out of fuel. When it gives up, it falls into a default that sends the sub home without considering fuel status.



msvknight -> RE: Running out of fuel? (4/28/2010 8:11:21 AM)

I'm not really sure.  I know that in the first versions of AE it was a bit of a concern, then it was fixed by a patch.  Now it seems to have recurred.  I'm finding subs rebasing to San Francisco even though Pearl has plenty of spare fuel.

I'll see if I can get you a save game, but I suspect my example might have sunk 3 hexes short of Johnston Island.



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