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Who Cares -> Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 7:15:08 PM)

Wake me up when supplies work. Top half is March 24th. Bottom half March 27th. Look at the supply demand at Gifu (where General Defense Army HQ is located). The "demand" there is 50,000 supply (25 for the base 25 for the HQ). Now look at the "available supply" at the bases surrounding it. Around 50,000 within 1 hex, more than 100,000 within 2 hexes, yet the supply level actually dropped at Gifu every turn.

In another game (the one with the B-17s in the other thread), 10 Brit/Indian/Australian divisions advancing through Burma. No supplies at all going to bases south of Dacca/Ledo yet all my troops even as far south as 3 hexes beyond Magwe are fully supplied and on the roll.

Both of these games have come to a halt (1 by me, 1 by my Finnish opponent which I agree with). I'm going back to WitP. At least it worked.

[image]local://upfiles/33984/AAA0E9CDE9F54B70A1F56F33A005410F.jpg[/image]



Andy Mac -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 7:30:58 PM)

Turn off the supply draw for all bases you have it set to ON for and you supply situation will get back to normal in a few days

Andy



vonTirpitz -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 7:43:24 PM)

Supply management requires more finesse in AE than it did in WITP.

As Andy stated you really should turn the "supplies required" down to minimum for all your bases. This topic has been covered before and explained in other threads.

Supply management in AE works.

The user interface to manage supply, on the other hand, is where you can get yourself into trouble if you are trying to micromanage things (particularly playing Japan). Just turn everything back down, understand that if you are requesting 3000 supplies at a base you are actually requesting 3x that number (i.e. 9000) and understand that most of the supply system does what it is supposed to do without the player getting directly involved in most cases.

Turn everything back to minimum supply required and give yourself a few days for the system to 'stabilize' the supplies at each base.



Who Cares -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 9:00:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Turn off the supply draw for all bases you have it set to ON for and you supply situation will get back to normal in a few days

Andy


I have those bases set to just over 10,000 to KEEP SOME SUPPLY THERE TO REPAIR THEIR FACTORIES. Otherwise, they will get sucked to zero and wont be able to repair. Fix this crap. No excuse.



Xxzard -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 9:02:11 PM)

On another supply issue, I don't know why, but the base at Chumphon, on the narrow part of the Maylayan Peninsula, will not draw enough supplies when I request it to. I was unable to keep an airfield running there because there was no supply coming in. I tried drawing it in, but it wouldn't go above 20 supply. This was as the British when I captured it from Japan. Supplies seem to go through it, but do not stay there.



Who Cares -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 9:02:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

Supply management requires more finesse in AE than it did in WITP.

As Andy stated you really should turn the "supplies required" down to minimum for all your bases. This topic has been covered before and explained in other threads.

Supply management in AE works.

The user interface to manage supply, on the other hand, is where you can get yourself into trouble if you are trying to micromanage things (particularly playing Japan). Just turn everything back down, understand that if you are requesting 3000 supplies at a base you are actually requesting 3x that number (i.e. 9000) and understand that most of the supply system does what it is supposed to do without the player getting directly involved in most cases.

Turn everything back to minimum supply required and give yourself a few days for the system to 'stabilize' the supplies at each base.


If I have it set to 10,000 why would it be requesting 30,000? In what way does that make sense? If I request 10,000 then I want 10,000. Why is their some hidden bullsh*t saying that I really want 3 times that? Fix it.



Who Cares -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 9:05:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xxzard

On another supply issue, I don't know why, but the base at Chumphon, on the narrow part of the Maylayan Peninsula, will not draw enough supplies when I request it to. I was unable to keep an airfield running there because there was no supply coming in. I tried drawing it in, but it wouldn't go above 20 supply. This was as the British when I captured it from Japan. Supplies seem to go through it, but do not stay there.


I have that problem in reverse. I have so many supplies there, I cant keep any in Singapore:

[image]local://upfiles/33984/90D6112EF9DC4B0F8843209A0C78B8F5.jpg[/image]



BigJ62 -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 9:22:23 PM)

In witp it is 3 x supplies required and so it is in ae.
If supplies required were 1 x you would damn near have to micro-manage every f-ing base on the map.

You have supplies required set too high, TURN THEM DOWN. You also need to have hell of a lot of supplies if you are going to repair a lot of factories.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Who Cares


quote:

ORIGINAL: vonTirpitz

Supply management requires more finesse in AE than it did in WITP.

As Andy stated you really should turn the "supplies required" down to minimum for all your bases. This topic has been covered before and explained in other threads.

Supply management in AE works.

The user interface to manage supply, on the other hand, is where you can get yourself into trouble if you are trying to micromanage things (particularly playing Japan). Just turn everything back down, understand that if you are requesting 3000 supplies at a base you are actually requesting 3x that number (i.e. 9000) and understand that most of the supply system does what it is supposed to do without the player getting directly involved in most cases.

Turn everything back to minimum supply required and give yourself a few days for the system to 'stabilize' the supplies at each base.


If I have it set to 10,000 why would it be requesting 30,000? In what way does that make sense? If I request 10,000 then I want 10,000. Why is their some hidden bullsh*t saying that I really want 3 times that? Fix it.




Who Cares -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 10:23:26 PM)

Ok, so let me understand this. As supreme commander I can:

A) Order a chief petty officer to go from this squadron to another, or for that matter, I can grant him leave time.

B) Tell a specific airplane (in a 1 plane group) to do a certain thing.

C) Order an unlimited number of units in a single hex to attack.

ect ect.

But what I can not do is when a base determines that it needs "X" amount of supply (in fact that number is multiplied by 3) I, as supreme commander can NOT say "no".

So 2 questions, #1 Am I correct in my interpretation? #2 Does that REALLY make sense to you?



Don Bowen -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 10:59:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Who Cares

Ok, so let me understand this. As supreme commander I can:

A) Order a chief petty officer to go from this squadron to another, or for that matter, I can grant him leave time.

B) Tell a specific airplane (in a 1 plane group) to do a certain thing.

C) Order an unlimited number of units in a single hex to attack.

ect ect.

But what I can not do is when a base determines that it needs "X" amount of supply (in fact that number is multiplied by 3) I, as supreme commander can NOT say "no".

So 2 questions, #1 Am I correct in my interpretation? #2 Does that REALLY make sense to you?


In WITP, all supply movement was done automatically - with no control by the player. The routines balanced available supply against need. Did not just satisfy basic need - if more was available it spread the around as well (using the same percentage of demand). I believe the overage was controlled, maybe three x? Memory fades and who cares.

There was a lot of demand for player ability to increase the supply requirements for a base. Primarily to accumulate supply for some purpose. So we added a function to request additional supply for a base. It increases the "basic" supply need but the actual amount drawn is based on amount available. For example, if you request an additional 10k for a base that already needs 5k, the base shows a basic need of 15k. The auto supply movement routines will attempt to satisfy the 15k need then, as always, spread any additional around based on the need. A request for 10k in a "supply rich" environment could draw many times that.

So, in AE, supply movement is almost completely automatic. Supply flows to need, assuming a path can be drawn along which the supply can flow. Players can request an increase in supply for specific bases. They can no request that a specific base be starved.

Yup, that makes sense to me.



Don Bowen -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 10:59:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Who Cares


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Turn off the supply draw for all bases you have it set to ON for and you supply situation will get back to normal in a few days

Andy


I have those bases set to just over 10,000 to KEEP SOME SUPPLY THERE TO REPAIR THEIR FACTORIES. Otherwise, they will get sucked to zero and wont be able to repair. Fix this crap. No excuse.


I don't like you. This post is a good example of why.



Smeulders -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/24/2010 11:35:56 PM)

Who cares, you may have a point that the request supply feature may have been done a bit better, but you are not the first one to have done so. If you had done a bit of searching, you would have found older threads about this and you would have found a detailed explanation as to the algorithm that distributes supply. If you had read it, you would have found out that the number you show are perfectly in line with this publicly posted algorithm and you would have found ways to solver your problem. This laziness on your end may be excused, but your rudeness can not be. Frankly I'm surprised devs still responded after your OP and even more surprised some even did after your completely inappropriate response to persons actually helping you. My advice to you, take some lessons in politeness, your bullying may help you elsewhere, but it won't help you here. If this is ever changed, it surely won't be because of your charming posts here, but because other people asked so politely.



USSAmerica -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 2:47:46 AM)

Well said, Smeulders.  



wdolson -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 2:53:44 AM)

The number displayed for supply demand, before you adjust it is what the base is expected to need for the next week.  (Changing conditions like more or less ground units, combat, more or less air ops, etc. can change this, but this is what the game engine expects to need.)  The supply routine will try to keep a three week supply on hand at all times.  If it drops below this threshold, the supply level will turn orange.  If it drops below what is needed for a week, it will turn red.

When you add 1000 supply to the requirement, you are artificially bumping up what the game thinks the base needs for the next week by 1000.  The supply routine will do what it always does and try to get 3 times what is needed at the base.

That's why when you add 1000, it actually increases demand on the supply system for 3 times that.  To make the increased demand be 1X what is needed would only add 1/3 to the base's demand, and cause a whole other type of confusion.  There is no perfect way to do increased demand, but it is done in line with how supply has always worked in the WitP family of games.

As for supply problems in Burma, there are special Monsoon movement limits so bases in the back country could end up short of supply even when coastal or Indian bases on rail lines have more than they need.  Blame the weather and bad roads for that.  It's by design.  If you don't like it, you can go back to the basic game pre-patches.  I believe this was added with patch 1.

Bill



BrucePowers -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 2:58:56 AM)

I think this game handles the complexity of real world logistics fairly well.



Tuhhodge -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 8:13:37 AM)

wdolson - thanks for that simple explanation of supply. I was also confused - probably because reading the game manual induces me into deep sleep and I hadn't quite coem to grips with the supply chapter!



LoBaron -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 8:29:57 AM)

Tuhhodge, just be aware that the manual isnīt really up to date anymore re: supply. Some things have changed during the patches, but there are loads of interesting
threads on this topic. Just read through the discussions and already learned something new.

Two I found quite fast using the search function:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2395397

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2331493

Theres lots to learn. For me also. I might understand the air war pretty well but as soon as I like to see myself as a proper veteran some new things pop up I donīt
quite understand (yet [:D]) or my opponent uses a tweak that I did not think of and I feel very small again... [;)]




Some people ask questions, which is great, some search by themselves, also great, some just rant cause they didnīt understand a part of the game and overreact to
their ego, that tells em they found a major feature of the game to be broken, but noone else noticed, but WhoCares... [:'(]



Smeulders -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 9:40:18 AM)

Wdolson, isn't the number of supply required per month instead of per week ?

For those interested, the algorithm I talked about was posted by BigJ in an earlier thread on this topic and can be found on the AE wiki as well.
http://hc-strategy.com/ae/wiki/index.php?title=Overland_Supply_Movement



BigJ62 -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 4:28:58 PM)

LCUs use per month and by extension so do bases when the units are at that base but bases also supply units not in base hexes and this is not known in advance nor can be displayed in the supply requirements so some bases may have a hidden cost.

All other resource types are per day.

Due to the fact that some bases can only be resupplied once or twice per week the 3 x requirement makes since otherwise you would have to tweak all these bases to do what the code is doing for you already. I have already tried the 1x thing and it was a disaster, after several turns of playing I gave up as it was just too much work to get all my bases into supply and keep them that way.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Wdolson, isn't the number of supply required per month instead of per week ?

For those interested, the algorithm I talked about was posted by BigJ in an earlier thread on this topic and can be found on the AE wiki as well.
http://hc-strategy.com/ae/wiki/index.php?title=Overland_Supply_Movement




Chickenboy -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 8:18:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The number displayed for supply demand, before you adjust it is what the base is expected to need for the next week.  (Changing conditions like more or less ground units, combat, more or less air ops, etc. can change this, but this is what the game engine expects to need.)  The supply routine will try to keep a three week supply on hand at all times.  If it drops below this threshold, the supply level will turn orange.  If it drops below what is needed for a week, it will turn red.

When you add 1000 supply to the requirement, you are artificially bumping up what the game thinks the base needs for the next week by 1000.  The supply routine will do what it always does and try to get 3 times what is needed at the base.

That's why when you add 1000, it actually increases demand on the supply system for 3 times that.  To make the increased demand be 1X what is needed would only add 1/3 to the base's demand, and cause a whole other type of confusion.  There is no perfect way to do increased demand, but it is done in line with how supply has always worked in the WitP family of games.

As for supply problems in Burma, there are special Monsoon movement limits so bases in the back country could end up short of supply even when coastal or Indian bases on rail lines have more than they need.  Blame the weather and bad roads for that.  It's by design.  If you don't like it, you can go back to the basic game pre-patches.  I believe this was added with patch 1.

Bill


wdolson, et. al.:

Thank you for the informative post. I didn't know some of this stuff (including the 3x supply demand 'pull'). Very useful.



Tuhhodge -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 10:39:48 PM)

LoBaron - thanks for those links. I read them with a combination of interest and dismay. I'll have to sit down in a quiet room with the manual and search function to properly understand this game!

Perhaps I can circumvent an element of my research by simply asking the following: -

Is it the case that the supply or fuel 'requested' button for each base only draws supply or fuel via overland routes?

Ergo, increasing the supply or fuel requested on Island bases has bugger all effect?

Hence the need to send huge TFs from various locations to keep bases like PH supplied?

And, finally, could someone expand upon the comment BigJ62 made about some supplies coming daily, others weekly?

Thanks everyone,

Tom



wdolson -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 11:34:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Wdolson, isn't the number of supply required per month instead of per week ?

For those interested, the algorithm I talked about was posted by BigJ in an earlier thread on this topic and can be found on the AE wiki as well.
http://hc-strategy.com/ae/wiki/index.php?title=Overland_Supply_Movement


Oops, I knew something was amiss when I was writing that.

Bill



wdolson -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/25/2010 11:53:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuhhodge

LoBaron - thanks for those links. I read them with a combination of interest and dismay. I'll have to sit down in a quiet room with the manual and search function to properly understand this game!

Perhaps I can circumvent an element of my research by simply asking the following: -

Is it the case that the supply or fuel 'requested' button for each base only draws supply or fuel via overland routes?

Ergo, increasing the supply or fuel requested on Island bases has bugger all effect?


Mostly true. Supply can be transferred over water between adjacent ports. For example the California Channel Island bases will be supplied from Southern California ports. The supply transferred depends on the size of the smaller of the two ports in the transfer and what is available.

Of course islands with more than one base can transfer supplies to one another.

quote:


Hence the need to send huge TFs from various locations to keep bases like PH supplied?


Depending on how active PH is for you, you will probably need to send convoys from the West Coast to Pearl to keep it supplied. The bulk of your cargo convoys will probably be going to Australia. Australia can limp along on its own, but if you want it to be your base of operations for the SW Pacific as it was in the real war, you will have to move a lot of fuel and at least some supply there on long runs from the West Coast.

quote:


And, finally, could someone expand upon the comment BigJ62 made about some supplies coming daily, others weekly?


To move supply (or any of the other commodities) from one place to another overland, the game engine does a daily check for each base. The engine checks all bases reachable overland from that base and calculates the total cost based on distance, terrain, and road costs. Each day there is a threshold number and if the cost to move to a base is lower than the threshold of the day, commodities move.

There is one day a week in which the threshold is very low, so more distant bases will get supplied. Some days of the week the threshold is very high, so only low cost supply routes will move stuff.

The way commodities move has been improved a bit (and made more efficient) over WitP, but the basic system is the same. I think this system was done to prevent the game engine from spending a lot of time moving commodities every day. Turn processing takes longer on the day when the threshold is lower.

Bill



LoBaron -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/26/2010 7:24:06 AM)

Bill thanks for this detailed answer!
Very informative.

Also great work on that Wiki link, BigJ.

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Tuhhodge
Hence the need to send huge TFs from various locations to keep bases like PH supplied?

And, finally, could someone expand upon the comment BigJ62 made about some supplies coming daily, others weekly?

Thanks everyone,

Tom


Tom, sending loads of TFīs to supply consuming destinations and buildup areas is a major part of the game.
As Bill already explained, where to send them heavily depends on your general strategy but destinations like Australia usually are
a no-brainer.
PH is another thing: some players like to use it as a forward hub for US troops, in this case youīd need one or the other big convoy.
Others prefer to keep it small and make the US west coast the eastern Allied staging area, naturally they can neglect PH up to a certain level.


To give an a bit less sophisticated answer to your other question:

Supplies are consumed and moved on a daily basis.
The minimum supply requirements you can see in the base window are a estimate of the weekly consumption which
is calculated based on your current base operations (unit mode, air ops, base buildup,....).

So for example if a base gets under attack, suddently the supply consumption can double or triple in no time, depending on your countermeasures,
so take this number with a grain of salt.

Hope this helps.




Tuhhodge -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/26/2010 9:33:06 AM)

LoBaron and Bill - thanks for the extra info. Very helpful stuff. Seeing as you are both being so helpful, perhaps you might like to answer these gems?

Considering the time delays caused by lengthy supply paths for bases like Darwin or the Burmese frontline, is it prudent to stockpile supplies along the route to those bases by stockpiling supplies in strategic locations? But if this were sensible practice, could it not lead to the stockpiling base along the supply path drawing back supplies from the very bases you are trying to supply?

I'm wondering too about very remote bases. Let's take the example of Port Hedland which has no road link to the rest of Australia. Can it actually get supplies overland using the supplies requested button? There are other examples such as the Celebes bases where the north and south of the island are not linked by road and I cannot really see a realistic way in which supplies could be drawn across a jungle.

There are many small island bases on the map. Many have no LCUs besides the odd detachment or base force. They presumably use supplies but in small amounts. What's the best way to keep them supplied? An AKL once a month?

Lastly, why is there no 'fuel required' button to compliment the 'supplies required' button? I presume that the lack of this option means that fuel must be transported by sea in all cases where you feel the need to stockpile?



wdolson -> RE: Gamebreaker (4/26/2010 12:20:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tuhhodge

LoBaron and Bill - thanks for the extra info. Very helpful stuff. Seeing as you are both being so helpful, perhaps you might like to answer these gems?

Considering the time delays caused by lengthy supply paths for bases like Darwin or the Burmese frontline, is it prudent to stockpile supplies along the route to those bases by stockpiling supplies in strategic locations? But if this were sensible practice, could it not lead to the stockpiling base along the supply path drawing back supplies from the very bases you are trying to supply?


Treespider came up with a technique of pumping supplies by increasing demand at various bases along a route one turn after another. It's been toned down a bit in one of the patches. It's also extremely wasteful because moving a lot of supply into a small base is going to suffer spoilage before it's moved to the next base down the line. If you don't do the pump right, you can end up sucking supply back the way it came (I've done it by accident).

The best way to supply bases like Darwin is to run convoys around Australia. If the sea route is closed by enemy threat, you'll have to experiment with the overland pump method. With the monsoon effects in Burma, pumping supplies in is even more difficult. The monsoon rules have tried to emulate the mess Burma really was.

quote:


I'm wondering too about very remote bases. Let's take the example of Port Hedland which has no road link to the rest of Australia. Can it actually get supplies overland using the supplies requested button? There are other examples such as the Celebes bases where the north and south of the island are not linked by road and I cannot really see a realistic way in which supplies could be drawn across a jungle.


Supply will move a few hexes through jungle, but the transport losses will be high and the amount moved won't be much. The best way to supply isolated bases like you talk about is to send in an AKL or two from time to time. Port Hedland is going to pile up resources, so you probably want to put some AKs or AKLs on the run moving the stuff to someplace like Perth where it can be put to use.

quote:


There are many small island bases on the map. Many have no LCUs besides the odd detachment or base force. They presumably use supplies but in small amounts. What's the best way to keep them supplied? An AKL once a month?


I often pull the small land forces out of those remote bases, but I keep a few garrisoned. The best way to handle them is to send in a freighter once in a while. If you scan those bases about once a week (in game time) you can see the ones that are beginning to run low with the yellow exclamation points. Load up a freighter with some supplies when you see that and you should be OK. Get 5K of supply in one of those bases and it could last six months or more.

quote:


Lastly, why is there no 'fuel required' button to compliment the 'supplies required' button? I presume that the lack of this option means that fuel must be transported by sea in all cases where you feel the need to stockpile?


It was discussed, but wasn't done. I'm not sure why, but project management decided not to.

Fuel should tend to move towards either the port where you are having the most draw, or the largest port around if the draw is the same at many ports. So if you set up one West Coast port as your fuel terminal and load tankers there a few times a week, the fuel will tend to stay at that port. LA is a good choice for a fuel terminal because of the refineries there.

If you want to make sure the fuel stays put, you could ship large quantities from the West Coast to Pearl Harbor and use that as your fuel terminal for all points west. It would make good utilization for the shorter haul tankers you get. The 8000 endurance tankers aren't that well suited for the Australia run, but would be good for humping fuel to Hawaii.

Of course, if you're playing PBEM and have a tricky opponent, you probably need to mix things up a bit so he doesn't park subs along your common trade routes, or even worse send the KB in along the US to Hawaii route. Against the AI, you'll need a lot of ASW along the US coast for the first two years of the war until you've whittled down the long haul subs a bit, but it won't keep adjusting to what you do like a human can.

Bill



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