East Front book talk (Full Version)

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FM WarB -> East Front book talk (4/25/2010 2:14:29 AM)

I'm currnently reading War Without Garlands an interesting account of Barbarossa combining first person accounts with a good operational overview.

Having Zaloga's Red Army Handbook, Dunn's Hitler's Nemesis and Erickson's two volumes which I havent slogged through yet, how useful would Glanz' Colossus trilogy be for an understanding of the Soviet forces?

How useful is the Osprey Barbarossa trilogy?

Any other book suggestions are encouraged.



DrewBlack -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 8:53:06 AM)

Hi

I have just finished this from the master Glantz

The Initial Period of War on the Eastern Front, 22 June - August 1941: Proceedings of the Fourth Art of War Symposium, Garmisch, October, 1987 (Cass Series on Soviet Military Experience, 2), edited by Colonel David M. Glantz, Routledge, (1997) ISBN 978-0714642987

Really interesting, but i will/have bought anything by him the amount of intricate detail is astounding. The Osprey books are quite good as well, especially how they split over 3 volumes for the 3 Army Groups.

For a general overview Albert Seatons book Russo German War is good as well.

Drew



Flaviusx -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 9:31:34 AM)

Gotta read your Glantz. There's just a ton of stuff there you won't find elsewhere, and even Erickson is rather dated at this point.

If you want a nice taste of it, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg



wodin -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 11:05:27 AM)

Great book War without garlands.

I'm waiting for the second part of Glantz Stalingrad trilogy...the next book is about the fight for the city which I'm really looking forward to.

Glantz books are the ones to read by all accounts....



ComradeP -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 2:30:28 PM)

Moscow to Stalingrad: Decision in the East and Stalingrad to Moscow: The German Defeat in the East by E. F. Ziemke and others.



SGHunt -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 3:32:59 PM)

For operational descriptions, read Glantz's books on Operation Mars (it's called 'Zhukov's Greatest Defeat') and the Soviet '42 Kharkov offensive (called 'Disaster on the Donetz' and presumably is the primary source for the excellent game by SSG of the same name - I've just completed the excellent little Kirovograd scenario); they are both gripping accounts and incredibly detailed - probably the best books in my library. His 'From the Don to the Dnepr' I'm reading just now. (I wish he'd get someone in to do the maps better!) These also provide a welcome relief to the German-centric view of the war of most other histories besides Erikson's 'Road to Stalingrad' and 'Road to Berlin' (pretty good but also pretty dry and hard going).

I have not read the Symposium mentioned above mainly because it is soooo expensive and my lovely wife would not be amused.

Beevor's Stalingrad is an really excellent read (and his 'Berlin' also makies for great but grim reading), and I enjoyed the style of Paul Carrell's books 'Hitler Turns East' and 'Scorched Earth', although I'm not at all sure about the history.[:-]

Clark's 'Barbarossa' is a good overview (although with huge gaps), as is Glantz's own 'Before Stalingrad'.

I also enjoy the autobiographies (recognising you have to take them with a lot of salt!): Erhard Raus's 'Panzers on the Eastern Front', von Manstein's 'Lost Victories' and Chuikov's memoirs of Stalingrad (sadly now lent and lost forever it seems - aaaaaghh!!!), and lots by individual soldiers and junior officers.

I have Bartov's 'The Eastern Front 1941-1945: German Troops and the Barbarisation of Warfare', and Craig's 'Enemy at the Gates' waiting to be read! Oh and another titel by Newton...

More advice welcome on other good titles!

S



Theng -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 4:18:17 PM)

Manstein's Lost Victories is also very good as a personal account of the events



Helpless -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 4:24:15 PM)

quote:

Beevor's Stalingrad is an really excellent read


[sm=vomit-smiley-020.gif]



Banzan -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 5:39:18 PM)

Guderians pre-war book "Achtung - Panzer!" is quite good. Shows alot about the upcoming "Blitzkrieg" and modern mobile warfare in gerneral.
His past-war book "Erinnerungen eines Soldaten" is good,too. Not sure if it got a translated title as Achtung Panzer doesn't. If yes, it should be something like Memories of a Solider/an Officer as in the US "soldier" means a bit less then in german.

Also very nice: Martin van Crevelds Kampf-Kraft - Fighting Power: German and U.S. Army Performance, 1939-1945 even when its not an East Front Book. [;)]
Its not about US army against wehmacht, but how they were different and perform their tasks.



SGHunt -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 6:27:36 PM)

My dear Helpless

I'm so sorry to see you're experiencing a little upset tummy! [;)]

What's your objection to Beevor? I said it's great read (ie it's a very readable narrative)- I especially liked the way his story went from Hitler through the command to the front lines and then over to Ivan and up again.

Wossaproblem?

Stuart



Helpless -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 6:34:28 PM)

quote:

..Beevor

[sm=vomit-smiley-020.gif]

Dear Stuart,

Don't take it personal personal.. that's my allergic reaction on the trash-writer the beevor is. Don't even want to waste my time discussing his opuses. I'll better fix some WITE bugs instead.

Edit: read Glantz, it is verified and "hygienically" clean.. [:)]



SGHunt -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 6:44:29 PM)

There you go again - you will insist on things being factually accurate, histroically astute etc ... [:'(]

PS it would take a lot more than someone being sick on my shoes for me to take offence! I was concerned that I'sd upset you [;)]



DrewBlack -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 8:28:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger


I have not read the Symposium mentioned above mainly because it is soooo expensive and my lovely wife would not be amused.


The Symposium was not that bad in paperback, avialable for 30 of our british pounds the hard back starts at 90[X(]... my wife is sick to death of my massive book collection but Glantz is SOOO good I think she understands my thirst for knowledge.[:D]

Drew



ComradeP -> RE: East Front book talk (4/25/2010 10:55:10 PM)

quote:

His past-war book "Erinnerungen eines Soldaten" is good,too. Not sure if it got a translated title as Achtung Panzer doesn't. If yes, it should be something like Memories of a Solider/an Officer as in the US "soldier" means a bit less then in german.


It's called Panzer Leader in the English speaking part of the world.

I hope I can eventually find a copy of Guderian's book "Kann Westeuropa verteidigt werden?"/"Can Western Europe be defended?" as it would be interesting to compare what Guderian writes to what French General Robert Close would write 27 years later.



EisenHammer -> RE: East Front book talk (4/26/2010 1:48:42 AM)

IMO... Evan Mawdsley, Thunder in the East the Nazi-Soviet War 1941-1945 is the best single volume book on the Eastern front; it is just above Glantz When Titans Clashed.



bush -> RE: East Front book talk (4/26/2010 2:31:27 PM)

I have recently read Richard Overy's Why the Allies Won the War. This covers different aspects of the entire war, and I thought the whole book was a keeper. The section on the Russian Front (Deep War if I am not mistaken) was very enjoyable. I followed that up with his Russian War book. Not as good, but still some interesting info in there.

I have always been a huge fan of Mantstein's Lost Victories, particularly his first (Russian front) command of a Panzer Corp. Really exciting section. Also the Crimean campaign section is a good read.



ComradeP -> RE: East Front book talk (4/26/2010 6:11:56 PM)

In an ideal world, any Crimean campaign history written by a German should be compared with a Romanian account, the truth probably being somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately, I can't read Romanian and am at this point unaware of Romanian memoirs that are available in English or German.



Naughteous Maximus -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 12:40:24 AM)

I purchased "Germany and the Second World War", the EXPENSIVE series. I am not getting the whole thing, only those books worth reading. I have vol.# 3,4,6, and 7 right now. Vol.#4 covers the Operation Barbarossa. It will blow your mind. It discusses in the book, some of the things Hitler did and why he did them and the astonishing mount of detail is jaw dropping. In vol.#6 The Global War, it covers the battle of Stalingrad and gives you in graph form, practically everthing that was flown into and out of the pocket, per day! I also got pretty much, most of the books you guys have mentioned. Great stuff! I even have a Mauser Kar98k, with nazi stamps, manufactured in august '44, with bayonet. Its my pride and joy.



colberki -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 2:52:05 PM)

Paul Carrell's Hitler Moves East is superb. Funny no one mentioned it. I am sure many people know of it.



Zovs -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 3:22:16 PM)

Paul Carrell is a fake name his real name is Paul Karl Schmidt, he was a German Nazi and SS leader during WW2 so his work is not only one sided, slanted and pro German/Nazi is mostly garbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carell

There much better books from the likes of Ziemke, Erickson and Glantz to say the least.



Zovs -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 3:50:19 PM)

More about herr Schmidt (aka Carrell)

quote:

The main task of Schmidt was the chairing of the daily press conferences of the ministry. He must therefore be seen as one of the most important and influential propagandists for National Socialism during World War II. Recent studies confirm that his influence was at least on the same level as that of Otto Dietrich (Reichspressechef of Adolf Hitlers) and of Hans Fritzsche (Pressechef the Reichspropagandaministerium). Schmidt was also responsible for the very well done German propaganda magazine 'Signal', which was published in several languages to tell the German side of the story in neutral and occupied countries during the war.



Zovs -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 3:54:49 PM)

And my final thoughts on herr Schmidt

quote:

That Schmidt justified the Holocaust through his propaganda  is now seen as certain. In May 1944, he even gave advice on how to justify the deportation and murder of Hungarian  Jews, to counter the potential accusation of mass murder:


His words
quote:

"The planned undertaking (against the Jews of Budapest) will create significant attention, and lead to a strong reaction because of its scope. Those who are against us will scream and talk of a hunt on humans, and will try to use terror propaganda to increase feelings against us in neutral states. I would therefore like to suggest whether it would not be possible to prevent these things by creating reasons and events justifying the undertaking, e.g. finding explosives in Jewish association buildings and Synagogues, plans for sabotage attacks, for a coup d’etat, attacks on policemen, smuggling of currency in significant amounts to destroy the fabric of the Hungarian economy. The final piece of this should be a particularly heinous case, which can then be used to justify the dragnet."


So in my opinion Schmidt (or Carrell or Karrell) has written nothing 'supurb' other then Propaganda from the Nazi side.



Banzan -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 4:21:28 PM)

German historians valued Paul Karrells books as very poor due glorifing and ignoring most criminal facts.

But this is a major problem with most books from german "war-veteran" authors, even when they are pretty good otherwise.
For example, Guderian was trying to set him on the "right side" by ignoring the Fuehrer Befehl to kill al sowjet commissioners, but let someone else commit it and transfered commissioners to back units, knowing they would kill them. He also stated that no warcrimes ever happend in his area of command wich was also false.

Things like this you find alot when reading books from Guderian, Manstein etc.


As it was said before already, you would also need to read a book from the "counterpart" of an author to find the truth somewhere between them.



Zovs -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 4:58:33 PM)

Banzan,

Good points.



ComradeP -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 7:08:16 PM)

In some ways, memoirs/war diaries from soldiers can be more informative and less biased than memoirs by (former) generals as most of the generals will try to sweep the ugly parts of their career under the rug.

The books by regular enlisted men or lower ranking officers often contain some influence by propaganda, but there's less need to present the (winning of the) war as a string of successes they participated in, with some defeats by others that may or may not have lost the war depending on their nationality/side.



goranw -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 7:17:33 PM)

Hi!
Some recommendations on literature,
D. M Glantz: Most of his books are exellent.Many titles and special studies.
Albert Seaton "The Russo-german War 1941-45"
Tony Le Tissier " Berlin: Then and Now"
Jean-Paul Pallud- "The battle of Bulge"
and "Blietzkrieg in the west" (Then and now)
Danny S. Parker " Battle of the Bulge
Ulf Balke "Der Luftkrieg in Europa - 1939-1945 I+II
Zetterling-Franksson, "Tjerkassy-44"
"The battle of Kursk-the greatest tank battle in history"
"The Korsun pocket-the encirclement and breakout of a German army in the East,1944 "
Zetterling " Hitler against Stalin-The struggle on the eastfront"
Eike Middeldorf "Taktik im Russlandsfeldzug"
Eugen Kreidler " Die Eisenbahnen im zweitem weltkrieg"
Craig Crofoot " The order of battle of the Soviet Armed Forces" ( Many parts)
Some of W. Haupt's books ( very german orientated)

Reference literature as;
Das Deutsche Reich und der zweite Weltkrieg No 4 mit Atlas Beiheft.
Peter Schmitz u Claus-Jürgen Thiess
"Die Truppenkennzeichen der Verbände u Einheiten
der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-Ss und ihre Einsätze"
Georg Tessin "Formationsgeschichte der Wehrmacht"
Mueller-Hildebrand "Das Heer 1933-1945"
Wolf Keilig " Das Deutsche Heer 1938-1945"
Claus-Jürgen Thiess Atlas- Der Ostfeldzug-Heeresgruppe Mitte
D.M. Glantz Atlas and operational summary-the border battles 22-6---1-7 1941
GoranW



wiking62 -> RE: East Front book talk (4/27/2010 8:39:03 PM)

A good soldiers memoir is "In Deadly Combat" by Gottlob Herbert Bidermann. Bidermann served in the 132nd Infanterie Division.

"Soldiers of Destruction" by Charles Sydnor is also a good read. Basically the history of the 3rd SS Totenkopf division.



SGHunt -> RE: East Front book talk (4/28/2010 9:46:53 PM)

Goran - Gulp! - I withdraw my offer of a PBEM [;)] That's some booklist...

Hart - I enjoyed the Bidermann book too.

I was also going to write that I enjoyed 'HELL'S GATE: The Battle of the Cherkassy Pocket January to February 1944' by Douglas Nash, but I'm worried that I'll upset Helpless again![:'(]

Stuart



colberki -> RE: East Front book talk (4/29/2010 12:59:23 PM)

I have read Glantz - seems very pro Soviet. Its great from a historical point of view that a senior SS person has penned the war in the east from their vantage point as one of the protangists. Else, we will all believe after watching the Battle of the Bulge that Henry Fonda singlehandedly defeated 5th Panzer Army in December 1944 and the Germans were uncompetent. I dont condone the atrocities. 20+ millions of my Chinese brethen died at the hands of the Japanese Army in China, and Japanese bombers dropped their load over my great grand parents in Malaya. I am still very interested in the Japanese viewpoint of the war too.

As an example, is not the works of Churchill and Fuller on the war in west biased?

Anyway, this is a gaming forum, we should stay away from the politics.



Berkut -> RE: East Front book talk (4/29/2010 2:14:27 PM)

Glantz pro-Soviet?

Uhhh....no. While he is one of the few to tell the story from the Soviet side, he is actually (in many cases) rather hyper-critical of the Red Army and the Soviet Union. He certainly does not pull any punches when it comes to laying blame for the disasters of 1941 and 1942, and there is plenty of blame to go around.

Hell, the more I realize how badly the USSR screwed up the preparation and early parts of the war, the more I am amazed that the Germans were stupid enough to start it.



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