RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (Full Version)

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TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/6/2010 2:13:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The German AI often attacks Soviet units with 1 or 2 units, which can in some cases kill the attacker. I'm surprised the Soviet AI seems to be better than the german AI, especially as the armies in reserve need to be moved to the front, which would seem to be a more complex operation than moving from West to East. I guess the lack of AO's really hinders the AI, because it will just crawl all over the map like in the DB series.


I think you may be correct. In the post-game inspection of the map, I found German units scattered all over Mother Russia (perhaps they were hunting for black bread or borscht or something). The Germans I was able to kill (as opposed to those that killed themselves, as it were) were little one and two step units left by themselves or in small stacks adjacent to rather large gatherings of Ivans. Toss in some artillery and being easily able to trade step for step losses, and poof! Vanishing Germans.

Still, it's very unnerving to watch your units evaporate before the German advance. The AI does a good job sometimes in exploiting all the attacks and movement capabilities of the attackers, even if it doesn't seem to be as capable of rooting out dug in defenders as a real person--the focus isn't there, as one would expect of course. Truth be told, I'll be playing mostly as the German against the AI, so it's ok that the game gives a better fight that way. I think the AI actually benefits from the restrictive AOs, as it helps channel and guide its actions in effect.



ComradeP -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/6/2010 2:53:03 PM)

quote:

I think the AI actually benefits from the restrictive AOs, as it helps channel and guide its actions in effect.


It helps the Soviet AI a lot, I'm pretty sure of that, but the Germans basically have no AO's, which seems to thoroughly confuse the AI like in the DB series.

There are lessons to be learned from victory and from defeat, but I'm learning quite a lot by playing against Squatter, even though my chances of managing to get a draw are dropping/non-existent. I'd be pretty happy with a German marginal victory or a low point Decisive Victory too at this point. Some of my cities fell like domino stones, way earlier than I had hoped/predicted.

Although I've held most objectives except for Smolensk (far) longer than the Soviet player in the official AAR, I guess my losses and the reasonably low German losses due to a lower than expected attrition are the really crippling thing when it comes to the total score. Or maybe the German losses were really significant in the game detailed in the official AAR.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/7/2010 8:33:04 AM)

Interesting thread, I can't wait to see the outcome of the AAR. One thing I would say is that it would be hard to draw definite conclusions on some issues until a few games have been played.

On the question of Soviet Artillery, they are restricted to one shot per hex precisely to simulate the situation in which the Soviets found themselves.

I remember that before the First Gulf War some people in Australia had looked up Janes and worked out that Saddam Hussein had purchased some fearsome artillery (South African from memory) and were wringing their hands over potential Allied casulaties.

Now its true that Saddam had some good guns. What he lacked was a front line that would stand still, reliable information about the location of the enemy, adequate command and control to order the guns into action against an actual target, robust mechanisms for spotting and correcting fire or a logistics system capable of resupplying guns that did manage to fire at something. As a result, his guns were worthless.

The Soviets face all these problems, to varying degrees, which is why their guns are limited in the game.

Gregor



ComradeP -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/7/2010 11:19:06 AM)

Gregor, does Roger recall how many units he lost in the official AAR game? The total losses were not mentioned or shown.



hank -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/7/2010 1:30:17 PM)

Game Over

Soviets win an overwhelming victory (+1898 points) I was deeply concerned around turn 12 or 13 I was going to loose too many units to defend Smolensk and the few objectives I still held. I was very careful to preserve my three elite divisions and had all but two units were alive on turn 20 (one TD and one Arty got killed about mid game)
(setup:  recommended level, historic AO for Axis, no AO for me)

some stats:

                Soviet        Axis
VPs             6905          5007
Towns/VP    71/6170     122/2075
Forts/VP      0/    0         21/   42
KIA/VP        21/ 735      375/2890

Die Avgs
Close C        3.57           3.51
Direct F       3.55           3.71
Retreat        4.07           3.29
Arty/Air       3.64           3.43

If the scenario lasted another 10 or 20 turns, Smolensk would fall with what's left of the Soviet units still alive and in the oob (which is what happened obviously). If more elite units (gold) could arrive the soviets may be able to counterattack and hold back the Hitlerites but there are only three elite divisions (127th RD, 24th RD, and 17th TD).  Counter attacking with any of the other units is tough if not impossible in most situations.  You have to use the mechanized and tank divisions and with bad rolls you'll lose many steps that you can't afford.

A fun game it was.  I'm doing it again as Axis this time.

I made screen shots of my victory screen and map but don't have the time to figure out how to post it.  Off to work I go.



TheWombat_matrixforum -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/7/2010 5:32:17 PM)

I think it's a very good challenge for the Soviet player to manage the artillery--you have a lot of them, but they aren't individually as effective as the German arty, and the frequency of German breakthroughs means you lose a lot of battalions to marauding Nazis. But the heavier Soviet guns in particular can be crucial for breaking up German attacks on key cities, so you have to figure out how to best use them.

And I agree, questions about the AI won't be answered before many more games are played. I'm pretty happy with the challenge right now, as I lack the patience to be meticulous and the AI, even as the Germans, makes me pay for my impatience. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

Interesting thread, I can't wait to see the outcome of the AAR. One thing I would say is that it would be hard to draw definite conclusions on some issues until a few games have been played.

On the question of Soviet Artillery, they are restricted to one shot per hex precisely to simulate the situation in which the Soviets found themselves.

I remember that before the First Gulf War some people in Australia had looked up Janes and worked out that Saddam Hussein had purchased some fearsome artillery (South African from memory) and were wringing their hands over potential Allied casulaties.

Now its true that Saddam had some good guns. What he lacked was a front line that would stand still, reliable information about the location of the enemy, adequate command and control to order the guns into action against an actual target, robust mechanisms for spotting and correcting fire or a logistics system capable of resupplying guns that did manage to fire at something. As a result, his guns were worthless.

The Soviets face all these problems, to varying degrees, which is why their guns are limited in the game.

Gregor




jjdenver -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/7/2010 6:38:33 PM)

EDIT: apparently the AAR is not over so ignore this post.



ComradeP -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/7/2010 6:42:00 PM)

My AAR? That isn't over, we're at turn 14.

Due to a number of festivities in the Netherlands, the last two weeks have been fairly hectic and went by rather quickly, which is why there have been no updates for a while.



Tempest_slith -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/8/2010 12:00:43 AM)

Comrade P said:

Gregor, does Roger recall how many units he lost in the official AAR game? The total losses were not mentioned or shown.


The Axis lost 120 units for 5180 VPs and the Soviets 482 units for 3531 VPs in the official AAR.

The Axis lost rate is misleading, as I had the luxury of spending 3 or 4 hours on a turn vs 1 hour for Roger. My experience in other games is a careful Axis can keep his losses down to 3 or less a turn.



ComradeP -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/8/2010 12:11:06 AM)

In my game, Axis losses stand at around 60 for 2700 points and my losses are 444 units for around 3300 points.

120 Axis KIA's is pretty impressive, even if most of them are 2 step recon/pioneer units.



Duck Doc -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/8/2010 4:40:08 PM)

Well, I can tell you from playing the Axis the AI stoutly defends Mogilev & Orsha & even Bykhov. I am finding myself getting behind on points by the fourth turn in spite of maximum pressure to take those vital objectives. I wonder if bypassing them & surrounding those with infantry & letting them rot on the vine might not be something to try. I haven't had much time to play & I am not a good player but I am getting a little frustrated. The Russians seem to be holding their own at least in the early going & I can easily see how they could win. Any thoughts?



jjdenver -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/8/2010 7:08:42 PM)

I think Orsha and Mogilev should fall early and not be bypassed by all forces. Mogilev should fall probably by turn 3 or 4 at least. Orsha by turn 4 - 6. You can bypass these with some forces using the bridge between Mogilev and Orsha as well as the bridge south of Mogilev. However the first infantry division to enter in the south should be used to reduce Mogilev and the first (infantry) division or two that enters along the Orsha-Smolensk highway should be used to reduce Orsha.

One trick you might not be aware of is that you can hit these strongpoints with artillery and if you get one hit their chance to retreat goes up by +1 that turn. Also you can try for multiple attacks on a hex in the same turn (attack with some units, move them away a hex then attack with other units) to wear them down and get a better shot at a retreat result. You can leave a retreat hex (across a river for example where it's not profitable to put attacking units anway) so that they leave the city hex. Once a retreat is obtained the retreating units will be devastated by the extra retreat losses even if they can't retreat anywhere and the city is as good as taken.

If the Soviets put an NKVD unit in Orsha it will be harder to take but there are only 3 NKVD units so that's one less you'll face at Smolensk itself.

Be sure you're getting max tactical shifts (I think you can get about 3(?) green hexsides at Mogilev even with the city hex west of Mogilev still help by Soviets, and 2 green hexsides at Orsha even w/ the city hex west of Orsha still held by Soviets).

Be sure to take all hexes around both Orsha and Mogilev other than the other city hex (each has one city hex west of it) before attacking. This means clear out the east side of the river. This will prevent the Soviets from reinforcing Orsha and Mogilev hexes to undo the work you've one to reduce units there.

The cities must be assaulted but ensure max tactical shifts, ensure they are surrounded, ensure you have an infantry unit to take losses, and try to get more than one attack per turn as well as shoot for an artillery hit to up the chance of retreat. Do those things and the cities should fall in a reasonable timeframe.

And while you're making those assaults the bulk of your mechanized forces should be pushing east. If the Soviets leave strong forces at Orsha and Mogilev east of the rivers then you can create some big pockets by crossing at other bridges.

Keep killing and surrounding Soviets and they will wear down. If they stand and fight the German can wear them down due to better unit quality, more artillery, and better tactical shifts than the Reds.



hank -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/8/2010 11:14:02 PM)

"The Axis lost 120 units for 5180 VPs and the Soviets 482 units for 3531 VPs in the official AAR.'

That's impressive; but then that's Tempest.  I know I'm a much more timid player especially when on the defensive.  My kill numbers are quite disappointing compared to other more aggressive players.

Work's kickin butt right now so I have not got far in my new game with Axis.  I'm sure I won't kill as many comrades as those who are good offensive players but I'll try.



Duck Doc -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/9/2010 12:58:48 AM)

Excellent advice. I am following most of it & in my current game the gateway cities have fallen on pretty much the schedule you say. I am on turn 7 & all have fallen. Now to push on. I am down a heap in points & I must be careful not to push too far into enemy territory without being able to support myself. I did not know that about artillery & retreats. I will keep it in mind. Thanks,
[&o]



JSS -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/9/2010 5:57:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dale H

Well, I can tell you from playing the Axis the AI stoutly defends Mogilev & Orsha & even Bykhov. I am finding myself getting behind on points by the fourth turn in spite of maximum pressure to take those vital objectives. I wonder if bypassing them & surrounding those with infantry & letting them rot on the vine might not be something to try. I haven't had much time to play & I am not a good player but I am getting a little frustrated. The Russians seem to be holding their own at least in the early going & I can easily see how they could win. Any thoughts?



Bypassing strong defense points is my preferred tactic. Especially like to by-pass the elite Gds Rifle Divisions and the Abn Corps. The German Panzerkorps are best used to isolate areas and exploit gaps in the defense (IMHO); this has both pratical and historical value for their employment.

Think its better to capture Mogilev and Orsha with the infantry divisions once they arrive. This gives you a two-for-one benefit of panzer forces moving East/not getting bogged down (that's the most important concept!) and setting up the stout-hearted defenders for encirclement!



ComradeP -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/9/2010 2:23:36 PM)

Well, Squatter got his overwhelming victory as I gave up. The game was one big exercise in futility.

I guess the Soviets can indeed win, but things need to go right for them from time to time and cities need to hold out when attacked. The city CRT is pretty generous as it is, so the Germans can attack over and over for average losses. Squatter didn't even need artillery to capture any of the cities, all of them just fell in a single turn when attacked, regardless of the size of the garrison.



Duck Doc -> RE: Anybody win with the Russian ? (5/9/2010 5:20:34 PM)

JSS, thanks. I will try it next game.



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