RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update!

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Rustyallan -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/7/2010 6:10:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman quote: ORIGINAL: Rustyallan Cargo bays, gas extractors and docking bays all work for the 30%. One gas extractor is 2.5 cargo bays. You'll get faster extraction. Add a few more docking bays so the whole fleet can refuel at once. How many more docking bays do I NEED? I only have 10 ships! The corruption accumulation makes it impossible to afford any more! quote: How many more docking bays do I NEED? I only have 10 ships! The corruption accumulation makes it impossible to afford any more! I saw your other post on this and have been looking... where do you see the corruption amount? If you only have 10 ships, why do you need a ginormous resupply ship anyway? To me, the 30% rule of cargo/extractors/docking makes sense on a resupply ship. Scale it to fit your needs and for 10 ships, you don't need much. If you want a mobile fortress, build a huge capital ship. Or ask for a mobile fortress class to be added.

taltamir -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/7/2010 6:29:01 PM)
1. Corruption isn't being a bother to me at all. I am still filthy rich. 2. its only 30%... what is taking up so much other space?

Fishman -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/7/2010 6:36:29 PM)
Welp, game over. At 83%(!!!) corruption, it has become impossible to actually do anything in the game, and the value continues to grow even if I turn off all of the AI and do nothing at all. Given that there appears to be nothing you can do to effectively influence this value or even slow its growth, and there is no apparent meaningful limit on it, it renders the mid-to-late game rapidly unplayable. I have piles of colonies with > 100 development. None of them are worth anything because corruption is over 80%. Additionally, I now have come to suspect that anything I say about this makes it worse. So...done here. Maybe I'll check back next patch.

Rustyallan -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/7/2010 6:38:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman Welp, game over. At 83%(!!!) corruption, it has become impossible to actually do anything in the game, and the value continues to grow even if I turn off all of the AI and do nothing at all. Given that there appears to be nothing you can do to effectively influence this value or even slow its growth, and there is no apparent meaningful limit on it, it renders the mid-to-late game rapidly unplayable. I have piles of colonies with > 100 development. None of them are worth anything because corruption is over 80%. Additionally, I now have come to suspect that anything I say about this makes it worse. So...done here. Maybe I'll check back next patch. Where do you find the corruption value? I've never seen anything in the game except the government modifier to corruption on the summary screen. Maybe you should upload the game as bugged due to out-of-control corruption so they can look at it and see what happened.

taltamir -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/7/2010 9:19:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman Welp, game over. At 83%(!!!) corruption, it has become impossible to actually do anything in the game, and the value continues to grow even if I turn off all of the AI and do nothing at all. Given that there appears to be nothing you can do to effectively influence this value or even slow its growth, and there is no apparent meaningful limit on it, it renders the mid-to-late game rapidly unplayable. I have piles of colonies with > 100 development. None of them are worth anything because corruption is over 80%. Additionally, I now have come to suspect that anything I say about this makes it worse. So...done here. Maybe I'll check back next patch. This is totally not what is happening to me. I am literally swimming in cash here. What race and government are you playing? (I am playing a human democracy) quote: Maybe you should upload the game as bugged due to out-of-control corruption so they can look at it and see what happened. You should, absolutely do that.

Fishman -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 5:53:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: taltamir This is totally not what is happening to me. I am literally swimming in cash here. This holds true for much of the early game. Eventually, however, the non-stop corruption creep starts to overcome your gains, because it always increases, never caps out, and works as a percentile, so the same linear increase creates a rapidly accelerating drain on your income that eventually outstrips your ability to increase it. At this point, your income begins dropping until it goes negative again. quote: ORIGINAL: Rustyallan Maybe you should upload the game as bugged due to out-of-control corruption so they can look at it and see what happened. If I want to give this another shot in some future patch, I'd rather not. I'm sure they'll think of something else to horribly break, since at this point I have to resort to bizarre shenanigans to even play the game at all, and frankly, it is just not worth the hassle. Besides, I don't have it anymore, I already uninstalled. I'm done.

taltamir -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 8:14:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman quote: ORIGINAL: taltamir This is totally not what is happening to me. I am literally swimming in cash here. This holds true for much of the early game. Eventually, however, the non-stop corruption creep starts to overcome your gains, because it always increases, never caps out, and works as a percentile, so the same linear increase creates a rapidly accelerating drain on your income that eventually outstrips your ability to increase it. At this point, your income begins dropping until it goes negative again. No, I am swimming in cash because my empire is large, the larger I get the richer I get.

Fishman -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 12:53:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: taltamir No, I am swimming in cash because my empire is large, the larger I get the richer I get. That is true to a point. That was my initial impression as well. How "large" are we talking? 50? 100? Because I started to notice it at around 200, and when I started looking more closely, I spotted corruption values that were pushing 30-40%. At this point nearby worlds were starting to become short in supply, so the colonization slowed down. This didn't help at all. I noticed income slowly shrinking, and when I looked back at the same worlds, even the capital, corruption had passed 50%, pushing 60%. I stopped doing much at all, but this did nothing to stop the continuing upward creep, and profitability completely evaporated past 65%. At this point I was running on a large accumulated reserve. Nothing helped. 80%. Losses listed at 50K a turn, despite doing nothing for the past 5 years: No fleet construction, no additional hiring, nothing.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 12:56:11 PM)
You should upload your save. Corruption is designed to scale, but it is also designed to cap and while adding an additional world will have diminishing returns, it should not result in you having less money than you did without it.

Fishman -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 2:37:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins Corruption is designed to scale, but it is also designed to cap and while adding an additional world will have diminishing returns, it should not result in you having less money than you did without it. So what's the cap? Because if it can get as high as 80%, clearly there doesn't appear to be cap that is SANE, and the value continues to increase even when nothing is done. Why would it be increasing even in the absence of colonization?

Rustyallan -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 3:53:21 PM)
I finally figured out where to find the corruption value and am somewhat surprised to find it at 51% on my homeworld (top of the map) and up to 71% 3-4 sectors away, and down to 68% at the bottom of the map.� This is all after a major expansion push by me.� I'm still operating on surpluses, but have started to go into the red on cashflow at 163 colonies in a 700 system game.� My net reserves are stable or growing though.� I'll save a game at this point and play a while longer to see how bad I can drive it.� :)� We definitely need to get it renamed though.� My government is Way of the Ancients, my people are happy, but ~70% of my empire is corrupt...� Time to rename my empire to the Centauri Republic, perhaps?

Bartje -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 4:23:10 PM)
HAha, good Babylon refrence!! Have you uploaded it Fishman?? Would be nice to know if this is working as intented or if they missed something? Perhaps you guys have had the same fluke wallstreed had, B(illion) instead of M(illion) ??? [;)] I like this patch, can't wait till 1.05 however!!

Fishman -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 6:12:28 PM)
I don't have it anymore, because I uninstalled. Until I get some actual numbers, my motivation to play further is zilch, and since a patch is unlikely to appear for a month, there's not going to be much reason to keep hanging around until I hear the new patch is out through the grapevine. But clearly, I am not the only one seeing this.

Fishman -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 6:36:01 PM)
Speaking of which, one more rant worthy of note: In 1.03, empires were mostly inclusive, and this fit well with the behavior of population: Having a population in an empire never hurt you and could eventually benefit you, so there was no particular reason to consider any group undesirable outright. In 1.04, this is very different: There is now a strong motivation to encourage racial purity and strictly controlled population. With 1.03, having 2 billion of a race in your empire gave you their percentile bonii. In 1.04, this is done by percentage in a "first past the post" system. So in order to unlock a bonus, at some point, a race had to be 50% of your population. Therefore, ANY ADDITIONAL RACES detracts from your ability to achieve this goal, and those other-aliens are actually counterproductive. Making it percentage-based sets a very strict limitation on how many races you can have without it being a drag: 2! It's also not entirely realistic, since you'd think you'd gain, say, the full Research Bonus if you had enough Quamenos to fill out your researcher caste, rather than a need to have half your empire consist of them. Obviously half the population cannot all be researchers! A return to some variation of the older rules would help to eliminate the problem where the automated systems are now acting against the interests of the players. Perhaps make it 10B, rather than 2, but some sort of fixed goalpost would avoid this problem. As it stands, the current rule results in a moving goalpost that your automated systems shoot in the foot.

jscott991 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 8:04:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rustyallan I finally figured out where to find the corruption value and am somewhat surprised to find it at 51% on my homeworld (top of the map) and up to 71% 3-4 sectors away, and down to 68% at the bottom of the map.� This is all after a major expansion push by me.� I'm still operating on surpluses, but have started to go into the red on cashflow at 163 colonies in a 700 system game.� My net reserves are stable or growing though.� I'll save a game at this point and play a while longer to see how bad I can drive it.� :)� We definitely need to get it renamed though.� My government is Way of the Ancients, my people are happy, but ~70% of my empire is corrupt...� Time to rename my empire to the Centauri Republic, perhaps? I am also seeing this same phenomenon. It was easy to predict something like this would happen when they used such a crude method to take money away from the player (which I never understood anyway).

jscott991 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 8:08:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: taltamir quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman quote: ORIGINAL: taltamir This is totally not what is happening to me. I am literally swimming in cash here. This holds true for much of the early game. Eventually, however, the non-stop corruption creep starts to overcome your gains, because it always increases, never caps out, and works as a percentile, so the same linear increase creates a rapidly accelerating drain on your income that eventually outstrips your ability to increase it. At this point, your income begins dropping until it goes negative again. No, I am swimming in cash because my empire is large, the larger I get the richer I get. Yes, large is a relative term. Are you 150+ systems? 200+ systems? Corruption should be eating you up at this point. Why on Earth is corruption increasing on my capital when I add a colony on the periphery? I thought the whole point of corruption was to diminish returns for new colonies; not reduce the value of the existing empire. And how then does this ridiculous geographic modifier work (distance from capital increasing corruption)? It's remarkable that this is occurring and all to increase the difficulty for micromanagers. Great job. Great patch.

ASHBERY76 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 8:25:23 PM)
Racial bonuses applying in more gradual manner for multi-racial empires was one the best gameplay changes in the patch.The Empire racial individuality was non existent in the base game.I do not want this changed.

Bartje -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 8:55:04 PM)
I don't neither but perhaps the implementation was less then perfect; going by what Fishman is experiencing.

Wade1000 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 9:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman Speaking of which, one more rant worthy of note: In 1.03, empires were mostly inclusive, and this fit well with the behavior of population: Having a population in an empire never hurt you and could eventually benefit you, so there was no particular reason to consider any group undesirable outright. In 1.04, this is very different: There is now a strong motivation to encourage racial purity and strictly controlled population. With 1.03, having 2 billion of a race in your empire gave you their percentile bonii. In 1.04, this is done by percentage in a "first past the post" system. So in order to unlock a bonus, at some point, a race had to be 50% of your population. Therefore, ANY ADDITIONAL RACES detracts from your ability to achieve this goal, and those other-aliens are actually counterproductive. Making it percentage-based sets a very strict limitation on how many races you can have without it being a drag: 2! It's also not entirely realistic, since you'd think you'd gain, say, the full Research Bonus if you had enough Quamenos to fill out your researcher caste, rather than a need to have half your empire consist of them. Obviously half the population cannot all be researchers! A return to some variation of the older rules would help to eliminate the problem where the automated systems are now acting against the interests of the players. Perhaps make it 10B, rather than 2, but some sort of fixed goalpost would avoid this problem. As it stands, the current rule results in a moving goalpost that your automated systems shoot in the foot. Yep. I think the best approach would be a gradually increasing racial bonus, starting at 1% and increasing by 1% as a particular race population grows in your empire. Why wasn't this done to start? Is it difficult to implement?

Rustyallan -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 9:26:53 PM)
quote: Yep. I think the best approach would be a gradually increasing racial bonus, starting at 1% and increasing by 1% as a particular race population grows in your empire. Why wasn't this done to start? Is it difficult to implement? This is how I see it working now. The racial bonuses all scale based on the overall percentage of your population. Check your stats when you first get it and then check it later when the mix changes. You only get full benefit when the race equals or exceeds 50% of your population. Theoretically, your Dhayut empire could be overrun by Securans and the overall benefits would change. I like it. It makes a lot more sense than having one small planet of 50 with a certain population that suddenly gives your whole empire the full bonus.

Bartje -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 9:29:42 PM)
Yes but this should also depend on government type. Are these species citizens or merely conquered people? Do they really have the same rights. Are they truly equal population?? It makes no sense to lose the the bonus of your main citizens. The current system works under the presumtion that the population is equal. True under a Democracy or Republic etc.. But I see problems with this under an Empire and Hive system. Perhaps an Empire and Hive etc.. Should never be able to gain or lose any racial bonuses besides the colonization aspect?? I like that solution!

taltamir -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/8/2010 11:33:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jscott991 quote: ORIGINAL: taltamir quote: ORIGINAL: Fishman quote: ORIGINAL: taltamir This is totally not what is happening to me. I am literally swimming in cash here. This holds true for much of the early game. Eventually, however, the non-stop corruption creep starts to overcome your gains, because it always increases, never caps out, and works as a percentile, so the same linear increase creates a rapidly accelerating drain on your income that eventually outstrips your ability to increase it. At this point, your income begins dropping until it goes negative again. No, I am swimming in cash because my empire is large, the larger I get the richer I get. Yes, large is a relative term. Are you 150+ systems? 200+ systems? Corruption should be eating you up at this point. Why on Earth is corruption increasing on my capital when I add a colony on the periphery? I thought the whole point of corruption was to diminish returns for new colonies; not reduce the value of the existing empire. And how then does this ridiculous geographic modifier work (distance from capital increasing corruption)? It's remarkable that this is occurring and all to increase the difficulty for micromanagers. Great job. Great patch. I have actually gotten to those numbers. I don't think it is "safe" to do corruption as a value of planets... but as a value of your total income. say, tax until 10,000 is corruption free, from 10,000 to 15,000 corruption causes 10% reduction (but only 10% of the amount between 15,000 and 10,000... that is, your 11,000 loses 100 to corruption, 12,000 loses 200, and so on). This way it is impossible for you to even lose money by increasing your income. You get diminished returns, but no loses. Of course, that assumes you even need corruption at all. It is a "balancing" mechanic meant to balance small and large empires. Which I do not see how they should be balanced. A small group of fun hating people think that the game should be "tough" and challanging until the moment that they take out the last enemy colony. That the enemy could recover from any insane odds. That contrived things should constantly mount challanges to you. This is extremely frustrating to the player who just says "well, I have 10x their size so I should be 10x as rich and powerful... now I get to slaughter them for fun and revenge!" (and revenge is a big one... I Want to brutally destroy those AI empires who have made my life miserable when they were bigger. That is what is fun. Challenging? challenging isn't fun. Challenging people is the quickest way to make them quit something.

jscott991 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/9/2010 12:37:32 AM)
I completely agree. I'm never in favor of artificial difficulty increases. Corruption is a classic example of a mindless way to make something harder. It fits with how Matrix manages their other games, however; just let the AI cheat and that will make hardcore gamers happy.

ASHBERY76 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/9/2010 1:05:06 AM)
Corruption is a way to even the playing field and lessen the unstoppable snowball effect and stop the insane amount of money you get mid to late game when your empire becomes huge.Many games like EU3,TotalWar and even CIV4 use similar methods and most people are happy with it.

jscott991 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/9/2010 1:44:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76 Corruption is a way to even the playing field and lessen the unstoppable snowball effect and stop the insane amount of money you get mid to late game when your empire becomes huge.Many games like EU3,TotalWar and even CIV4 use similar methods and most people are happy with it. It's a cheap design trick. Too much money in the game? Well, instead of actually diagnosing economic balance, we'll just suck money out of the system using a nearly hidden, global value that can't be influenced in the slightest by gameplay. Regardless of where you stand on the theory this time, however, this corruption system is out of control. It becomes THE driving issue in game economics. When the main factor affecting economic performance is completely out of the player's hands, then the game is decidedly broken. I implore them to take it out, tone it down, or at least, please give the players a way to turn it off themselves. If some people have a problem with actually having money to do things with, let them keep it on, but for those that don't want to be penalized for being successful, let us fix this value. Edit: As an avid EU3 player, it has nothing with this kind of impact in it. DW's main economic value is corruption. The surrogate for it in EU3 is hardly noticeable.

Erik Rutins -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/9/2010 2:23:07 AM)
Please, how many posts on corruption is this? I've already said that this described late game corruption behavior in huge empires (which I still haven't seen a save for) does not sound like the intended result and is probably some kind of bug. Second, we have already said that an economic/corruption slider is planned.

Bartje -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/9/2010 9:54:33 AM)
I think people just needed to vent because they expect this game to be perfect Erik; It just has so much potential [:)] It's safe to say though that it certainly isn't working as intented / designed if this is what you are experiencing Jscott & Fishman so please help us correct this issue! Don't let those bugs get under your nails! !!Squash!! [:'(]

jscott991 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/9/2010 5:14:18 PM)
Corruption definitely starts to reduce colony tax income even as you expand your empire. In the save game I posted in the other thread, I had 149 colonies and earned 471k in tax revenue. It's difficult to generalize, but corruption was around 60% everywhere (67% on my homeworld). Several year later, I have 169 colonies and earn 427k in tax revenue. The reason: corruption. Corruption is now mostly 70% everywhere (72% on my homeworld). Expansion is costing me money. Regardless of any externality (maintenance, resort income, cheaper design tricks) that might give the illusion of profitability, corruption completely eats up economic output the bigger you get. It's just like I said before. It's functioning as a clock. Eventually, you will reach a stage and size where it eats up all profits from expansion, plus severely reduces your core world income. It's out of control.

ceyan -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/9/2010 5:17:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins Please, how many posts on corruption is this? I've already said that this described late game corruption behavior in huge empires (which I still haven't seen a save for) does not sound like the intended result and is probably some kind of bug. Second, we have already said that an economic/corruption slider is planned. I did start a quick start game as the large empire (forgot the exact name). Corruption was a huge issue, but it didn't kill my economy, what killed it was way too many troops. I let the AI run itself for about 3-4 years and somehow it accrued a metric butt ton of troops it never actually used (I don't remember the exact number but the maintenance on them was over 300k for 94 colonies). The corruption for all my planets was steady between 80-90%, but it was very distinctly a over-developed army problem that caused the major problem, and not the corruption. Unlike Fish I don't mind posting a save if you want, but I'm not sure if you'd consider that a valid representation since I was starting from that late game position and had absolutely no interaction in the game short of closing window pop-ups. Edit: quote: Edit: As an avid EU3 player, it has nothing with this kind of impact in it. DW's main economic value is corruption. The surrogate for it in EU3 is hardly noticeable. I haven't played EU3 since just after NA was released, but unless they changed something EU3 doesn't really have a corruption style mechanic at all, totally screws up Inflation (which I have to imagine they've somewhat fixed by now) in ways far worse than any DW economic problem, and has/had the same problem as DW where once you reach a certain point your Empire is so big without any consequence that its pointless to even play (which I imagine has also been adjusted somewhat, especially since two expansions have been released since I've played).

jscott991 -> RE: Distant Worlds Gets a Major Update! (5/9/2010 5:19:53 PM)
Post the save game! This is exactly the data needed. 80-90% corruption is exactly what I've been trying to show can happen! Expansion COSTS you money. Some people were denying corruption levels at that percentage were even possible. They aren't only possibly, they are INEVITABLE. And only 94 worlds! Fantastic. I knew this could be proven. Erik has repeatedly denied this occurs. But that clashes with all the explanations of corruption provided and the hard data.

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