Are King Tigers too powerful? (Full Version)

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Fuerte -> Are King Tigers too powerful? (11/26/2000 5:08:00 AM)

I'm playing a PBEM with Pack Rat, and his King Tigers are driving me nuts. I have not managed to destroy one of them, in fact I have not even managed to get a single hit at them. Whenever my tank appears and tries to shoot at them, their pipe turns and poof my tank is gone. It seems that if they don't hit with the first shot, then they hit at least with the second one. Is this realistic? At the same time my British tanks which are much more agile and smaller, have not hit even once to these huge monsters. Of course if I would get a hit, it wouldn't probably have any effect. This is not fair. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Wild Bill -> (11/26/2000 6:11:00 AM)

My experience has been just the opposite, Fuerte. I've felt that KTs and Tigers, most of the big cats to be vulnerable. A lot depends on the skill of those KT commanders, and you can't know that, of course, being the Brits. But if they have a high experience level, they can be very hard to kill. As to it being "not fair," I'm quite sure a lot of UK tank commanders would have echoed your sentiments. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Drex -> (11/26/2000 6:35:00 AM)

Fuerte, i too have been at the wrong end of Pack Rat's Tigers but that is the fortunes of war. on the other side i have just decimated a tiger attack with my flame tanks and bazooka teams. you win some and you lose some. I'll challenge Pack Rat again. I believe it was his higher elevation that exposed me to his elite tank crews. Maybe terrain was your problem.



Drex -> (11/26/2000 6:35:00 AM)

Fuerte, i too have been at the wrong end of Pack Rat's Tigers but that is the fortunes of war. on the other side i have just decimated a tiger attack with my flame tanks and bazooka teams. you win some and you lose some. I'll challenge Pack Rat again. I believe it was his higher elevation that exposed me to his elite tank crews. Maybe terrain was your problem.



Greg McCarty -> (11/26/2000 7:19:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fuerte: I'm playing a PBEM with Pack Rat, and his King Tigers are driving me nuts. I have not managed to destroy one of them, in fact I have not even managed to get a single hit at them. Whenever my tank appears and tries to shoot at them, their pipe turns and poof my tank is gone. It seems that if they don't hit with the first shot, then they hit at least with the second one. Is this realistic? At the same time my British tanks which are much more agile and smaller, have not hit even once to these huge monsters. Of course if I would get a hit, it wouldn't probably have any effect. This is not fair. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img][/B]
Here's my opinion for whatever its worth: These are hell against any armor, If you are going to beat them, you must use another component of the "all-arms" philosophy. aircraft or ground troops if you can get close enough through cover terrain. I almost never use Kings or Jagdpanthers. Too vulnerable to air attack for what they cost. An airplane with rockets and cannon, that can stay on station for awhile can turn this expensive investment into scrap iron. This was the case in real life too. ------------------ Greg. 37 mill AA... can suddenly ruin your day. [This message has been edited by Greg McCarty (edited November 25, 2000).]



Pack Rat -> (11/26/2000 8:59:00 AM)

My feeling is that they are probably close to historically correct, not just for these battles guys [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]. I'll probably regret this but... I used to use the Soviet flame tanks in packs on them. The problem was getting the cover to get close, but much has changed since SP1 and SP3, they may not be as effective. I think, never did a test, I got a higher kill ratio than just trying for the sides at a distance, which of course is wise to still do. Everyone has their own play style, but the other thing to keep in mind is I played you on only a large map where flanking is almost impossible. Fuerte you made a sweet move with a flank that would have given you the high ground had it not been for the edge of the map. Drex I too look forward to your challenge, I fully expect a stiffer fight. Both of you very good competitors and a pleasure to play against, which is what this game is really about. Now how do I end this, hope this doesn't help? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] ------------------ "More PT Drill Sargent" ;) Pack Rat



jerrek -> (11/26/2000 11:15:00 AM)

i seem to remember reading somewhere they there was no proof that the allies (it might have meantr western) did not manage 1 front on penetration of a tiger 2. Considering the armour vs guns it is quite possible (front armour was almost twice as good as a tiger). Keep in mind that tiger 2 should have best crews,. It has the most penetrating gun of the war and with german optics and high velocity probably the most accurate. I think there may be a reported 2 or 3 mile kill of a t34 with this gun (elephant). Use of inafntry and planes is required.



Fabio Prado -> (11/26/2000 1:34:00 PM)

Fuerte, What you are experiencing is rigorously within the Historic context. Whenever you are talking Tank vs. Tank combat during WW2, there will be no match for the King Tiger. It was the supreme predator on the battlefield. The vast majority of King Tigers were destroyed by air attack, heavy artillery, disabled by mines, or abandoned by the crews as a result of mechanical failure. Not by Allied tanks. That doesn't mean that they were invulnerable, too, but when you face them you'll have to devise appropriate techniques to deal with them. You'll find a Russian "anti-Koenigstiger" recipe in my website, on this page: http://fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2_in_action.htm Take a tour there. You'll find lots of info about the Tigers there. Get to know your enemy. You'll have a lot more fun. Believe me, I know. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] FAP ------------------ Fabio Prado [email]fprado@fprado.com[/email] Webmaster - The ARMOR Site! [This message has been edited by Fabio Prado (edited November 26, 2000).]



Bonzo -> (11/26/2000 1:59:00 PM)

And smoke!!! That long range punch is nullified if he can't see. Treat 'em like moving pillboxes, smoke 'em, mix a bit of HE to get them buttoned up (& separate the supporting infantry) then move on them (or ambush them) with AT squads, engineers, commandos, Tank Destroyers, whatever you've got. The King Tiger is at its best in open terrain. If you cannot draw them into close quarters, turn the open terrain into close quarters by blinding them. There are no "ultimate weapons" in SP:WaW, more like "Rock, Paper, Sissors". Every weapon system has its advantages and weaknesses. Countering King Tigers with Allied armour at anything close to equal numbers is "leading with your face" & your head will be handed to you. Even with a numerical superiority, you will likely lose a greater number of build points than your opponent, if you use Allied armour to take out the Tigers. Also the King Tiger is quite expensive. If your opponent has any great number of them, he probably hasn't got too much of a force to support them. ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]



G. K. Zhukov -> (11/26/2000 5:07:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Bonzo: And smoke!!! That long range punch is nullified if he can't see. Treat 'em like moving pillboxes, smoke 'em, mix a bit of HE to get them buttoned up (& separate the supporting infantry) then move on them (or ambush them) with AT squads, engineers, commandos, Tank Destroyers, whatever you've got. The King Tiger is at its best in open terrain. If you cannot draw them into close quarters, turn the open terrain into close quarters by blinding them.
Right. I remember my brother playing Tunisia early '43 and developing his own recipe to kill Tiger E's with his Shermans. He never deployed on the crests of the hills , but always behind them. He kepts some scouts out and waited for the monsters to arrive to the top and become visible. Then lots of smoke, flanking shots, artillery barrages and infantry assaults to finish the job. You should have seen those Nazis run away! The only problem is that you always end up fighting the Germans in a defensive stance, and it is much harder to overcome the big cats when you are advancing or assaulting in a scenario.



Alby -> (11/26/2000 10:50:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fuerte: I'm playing a PBEM with Pack Rat, and his King Tigers are driving me nuts. I have not managed to destroy one of them, in fact I have not even managed to get a single hit at them. Whenever my tank appears and tries to shoot at them, their pipe turns and poof my tank is gone. It seems that if they don't hit with the first shot, then they hit at least with the second one. Is this realistic? At the same time my British tanks which are much more agile and smaller, have not hit even once to these huge monsters. Of course if I would get a hit, it wouldn't probably have any effect. This is not fair. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img][/B]
I have beaten players who were using strickly panther, kings and elefants with the brits...try to get higher elevation than the germans,easier to destroy them from above, Infrantry works well also.. The brit fireflys with that 17lber may not always detroy the german monsters but many times can take out the main gun or immobilize them. ive even had 50 cals immobilze kings by hitting their tracks...IT CAN BE DONE< stick in there!! Alby [This message has been edited by Alby (edited November 26, 2000).]



Fuerte -> (11/26/2000 11:04:00 PM)

Thanks for all your suggestions! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Yes, I have Fireflys and Shermans... the problem is that I don't get chance to hit them. The worst example was when I saw one KT at 90 degree angle with my tank, which was just below the hill top. I should get at least one or two flank shots, right? Wrong. Immediately when my tank got to the top, the KT turret turned immediately and my tank was gone. Must be a very experienced tank crew, spotting my tank, turning the turret, and aiming a target before I had one shot. Pack Rat, you can confirm this! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Schrubbery -> (11/26/2000 11:33:00 PM)

It is most fortunate that in SPWAW, even while Übertanks might be impervious as such, the game models other kinds of hits too. Even if a 75mm shell won't penetrate it, it can take out gun, optics, track, radio etc. But most of all: buy artillery and mortars and use them to deploy smoke so you can ignore the big cats. They are good, but they are all-mightily expensive, so there can't be so many of them.



Fuerte -> (11/27/2000 12:08:00 AM)

But Pack Rat has plenty of them, it seems that 4-6. The article mentioned above says: "an average of 25 to 30 Tigers II were operational every day" So it seems that I have one fifth of the whole German army against me. Perhaps there are not so many KT's, because the Command & Control is off, so he can freely move them around... my mistake, should have required that CC is on.



G. K. Zhukov -> (11/27/2000 12:26:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fuerte: But Pack Rat has plenty of them, it seems that 4-6. The article mentioned above says: "an average of 25 to 30 Tigers II were operational every day" So it seems that I have one fifth of the whole German army against me.
Well, most German-lovers consider KT's and Panthers very sexy beasts. And they tend to forget that PzKpfw III's and IV's formed the backbone of the German armored strength even late in the war. I don't blame them, as this is a competitive game in which you use the points allotted to you in the best way possible. Given the chance, every German commander in the field would have done the same! Anyway, you could establish some historical restrictions in your next PBEM games, couldn't you?
quote:

Perhaps there are not so many KT's, because the Command & Control is off, so he can freely move them around... my mistake, should have required that CC is on.
I am a maniac of command control, which is the thing ASL left out (until the issue of Solitaire ASL). I'm surprised that A LOT of user-designed SPWAW scenarios suggest you to switch CC rules off...



panda124c -> (11/27/2000 3:29:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fuerte: I'm playing a PBEM with Pack Rat, and his King Tigers are driving me nuts. I have not managed to destroy one of them, in fact I have not even managed to get a single hit at them. Whenever my tank appears and tries to shoot at them, their pipe turns and poof my tank is gone. It seems that if they don't hit with the first shot, then they hit at least with the second one. Is this realistic? At the same time my British tanks which are much more agile and smaller, have not hit even once to these huge monsters. Of course if I would get a hit, it wouldn't probably have any effect. This is not fair. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img][/B]
P-47D with 5"rockets, 8"+ Artillery, Engineers and/or bazookas from behind they only move 10 so you can follow them with the artillery. You don't need to kill them just make'm immobile, then keep'em smoked. Your infantry is gon'a hurt, but keep the tanks hidden.



Almogavar -> (11/27/2000 3:55:00 AM)

Well, most German-lovers consider KT's and Panthers very sexy beasts. And they tend to forget that PzKpfw III's and IV's formed the backbone of the German armored strength even late in the war. G. K. Zhukov ============================================= Well, not really. Kursk was the last occasion on which the PzKpfw.III played the major role in a battle, thereafter, this tank soldiered on in decreasing numbers, its place as the Panzerdivision´s main tank being taken by the Pz.IV and the Panther. The strength of Panzer units in Normandy : - Pz.III: 39(used like command tank) - Pz.IV: 758 - Panther: 655 - Tiger: 102 - StuG: 158 The strength of Panzer units on 15 December 1944 (Western Front) : - Pz.III: - - Pz.IV: 503 - Panther: 471 - Tiger: 123 - StuG and JPz.: 598 The strength of Panzer units on the Eastern Front on 15 March 1945 : - Pz.III: - - Pz.IV: 503 - Panther: 776 - Tiger: 125 - StuG and JPz: 902 The strength of Panzer units on the Western Front on 15 March 1945 : - Pz.III: - - Pz.IV: 59 - Panther: 152 - Tiger: 28 - StuG and JPz: 203 The strength of Panzer units in Italy on 15 March 1945 : - Pz.III: - - Pz.IV: 131 - Panther: 26 - Tiger: 36 - StuG: 67 The source for all those data is Panzer Truppen vol.2 (Thomas L.Jentz), and you can see after June 1944 on Western Front parity in number of Pz.IV and Panther, Pz.III after Normandy not was operational except in training units. Almogavar ------------------ Desperta ferro.



G. K. Zhukov -> (11/27/2000 6:27:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Almogavar: Well, not really. Kursk was the last occasion on which the PzKpfw.III played the major role in a battle, thereafter, this tank soldiered on in decreasing numbers, its place as the Panzerdivision´s main tank being taken by the Pz.IV and the Panther.
Right... I had to have limited my lightly spoken assert to the Tiger tanks. Tigers in Normandy: 5.95% of total tanks/assault guns. Tigers on 15 December 1944 (Western Front): 7.26% of total tanks/assault guns. Tigers on the Eastern Front on 15 March 1945: 5.42% of total tanks/assault guns/tank destroyers. Tigers on the Western Front on 15 March 1945: 6.33% of total tanks/assault guns/tank destroyers. Tigers in Italy on 15 March 1945: a whopping 13.84% of total armored force - though Panthers here ran as low as 10%! Probably Fuerte is very unlucky to face the same old 5-7% of the German tank park...



Almogavar -> (11/27/2000 7:22:00 AM)

Yes, probably was fighting sPz.Abt.506 [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Almogavar ------------------ Desperta ferro.



Alby -> (11/27/2000 7:52:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fuerte: Thanks for all your suggestions! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Yes, I have Fireflys and Shermans... the problem is that I don't get chance to hit them. The worst example was when I saw one KT at 90 degree angle with my tank, which was just below the hill top. I should get at least one or two flank shots, right? Wrong. Immediately when my tank got to the top, the KT turret turned immediately and my tank was gone. Must be a very experienced tank crew, spotting my tank, turning the turret, and aiming a target before I had one shot. Pack Rat, you can confirm this! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
You guys playing with the hitting prefernce set to default?? shermans waste , get some 17lber AT guns heheh



Fredde -> (11/27/2000 2:48:00 PM)

Like always, use combined arms ;-) Use your artillery to suppress the big monsters and you will be able to sneak upon them and fire first.. preferrably with infantry squads or PIAT's assaulting them. I had a Wolverine sec working together with two mortars take out a King Tiger sec in a PBEM.. with a bit of luck of course. In tank vs tank fighting, before you end the turn.. pop a smoke just in front of the King Tiger forcing them to move to get into the fighting again.. which will reduce their accuracy quite a lot. [This message has been edited by Fredde (edited November 27, 2000).]



Pack Rat -> (11/27/2000 2:59:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by G. K. Zhukov: Probably Fuerte is very unlucky to face the same old 5-7% of the German tank park...
Ah it's good for him, put hair on his cheast [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] ------------------ "More PT Drill Sargent" Pack Rat



Harry -> (11/27/2000 5:27:00 PM)

Hi! I find IS-2(M) is a good tank to face the KT. It has a decent chance of survival. Its 122 gun may not destroy the KT at long range, but it can stunn the crew, blow the main gun away, immobilize him a.s.o. I like this tank, it has 3 MGs a big gun against AT, MGs and Infantry. Or.. I have surprised a friend with this. Use AT-guns on the offensive. Its tricky, so don't cry if you loose them qickly. Buy some tanks to support your infantry. And don't forget the smoke. Harry



Mike Rothery -> (11/27/2000 6:29:00 PM)

Keep the German armour busy to the front. Shoot at them from long range even though you can't hurt them, and then seek cover. Hit them with MG fire to keep them buttoned. Remember they are slow and like open spaces, so position At guns and armour on the flanks of open spaces, and go for their side armour. Use engineers and move up early and select the "will lay mines in facing hex" option. Try and guess the approach routes even in a meeting engagement. (take the nearest objective hexes and cover it with mines). Add a bit of smoke and some agression and you'll have fighting chance. It does work doesn't it Pack Rat?



Charles22 -> (11/27/2000 11:04:00 PM)

Here's a suggestion that may be worth trying, as an alternative to the most obvious, though I'll stress I haven't used it. If you're expecting something of very serious opposition, something you can't deal with, why not buy a number of the cheapest, and smallest target (small sizes), mobile units you can, which carry the smoke launchers? You could send up like 6 HTs (if any have smoke launchers) quickly forward, and blow their smoke launchers and get them back out. Even losing half of them, you've covers a great deal of open terrain with smoke, very quickly. In the rear, you can manuever some of your tanks with smoke shots, to hide somewhat behind that smoke, and at angles, start laying out wideniing that smoke. Of course the smoke will enable infantry some quick advancing also. The KTs will have to advance beyond the smoke (so perhaps the smoke is best laid in the middle of the open field [though the suicide smoke launchers won't be able to get much further than that anyway]) or move laterally. Of course, if the KT was entrenched in the first place, the smoke all but nullifies the KT comamnd of the field and probably makes him move as well. BTW, folks, the help portion of the game has the letter 'd' missing. 'd' is the key to hit to launch the smoke launchers. For some reason I hit that key accidently like two or three times this weekend.



Pack Rat -> (11/27/2000 11:06:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Rothery: It does work doesn't it Pack Rat?
Yes,it does [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] You put some needed hair on my chest in that fight. So my wife thanks you for her new more manly husband [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] Now if I could just get the hair off my palms [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] ------------------ "More PT Drill Sargent" Pack Rat



john g -> (11/27/2000 11:34:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Alby: You guys playing with the hitting prefernce set to default?? shermans waste , get some 17lber AT guns heheh
Finally the voice of reason, a 17 pdr opens up tigers like tin cans, and you can buy a platoon of them for what a PzVIb costs. That size 1 at gun will get off several shots before it can even be spotted. The Commonwealth forces are the best equipped to take out Tigers, once the 17 pdr shows up. You just need to take a page from the Germans and put those guns forward just as the Germans did with the 88 in the desert. thanks, John.



Charles22 -> (11/27/2000 11:46:00 PM)

john g: Naw, actually you don't want 88flaks up front, they're not standard issue ATGs, they're way too high. They don't cloak half as well as a 17 pdr. The AT gun is always one of the great equalizers, as you can buy many of them for the price of a tank, and unlike the 88flak (the actual 88AT may be a size '2' or smaller [which comes later in the war], while the 88flak is '3') cloak very well (just don't fire two many times a turn, and keep the blasted infantry away, so that they can't spot the guns).



Kluckenbill -> (11/28/2000 1:22:00 AM)

Any time I'm "out tanked" I try to make the big guy (be it Tiger 2 in 1944 or KV1 in 1941) use up shots by plinking it with scouts, infantry and MG's. I think scouts are some of the most cost-effective units in the game. The return fire usually isn't all that damaging, and even rifle hits will cause the tank to button up and sometimes add some suppression. After a few shots you have a better chance of getting some tank shots in without getting hit by the return fire. I imagine this metood would be less successful in the on-line game with optional opp fire. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



AmmoSgt -> (11/28/2000 3:10:00 AM)

I have found that the motorized scout section in the infantry catergory 3 jeeps w/50 cal and 2 man scout teams have room for a section of M9 bazokas a couple of these are fast and can grab choke points early those 75m1a1 pack hows are cheap got lots of smoke and keep infantry and tigers of all stripes buttoned up fairly well so a pair of king tigers get ya a couple of scout sections with bazokas and 4 maybe 6 pack hows ok ya need an FO so they come down with a .1 time delay but ya know i bet ya come out ahead as american more often than not .... many ways to skin a cat [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



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