Some numerical questions (Full Version)

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Axefire -> Some numerical questions (5/9/2010 9:08:14 AM)

How exactly are the following computed:

1. Acceleration. Adding more engines does not linearly increase acceleration but its effect is diminishing. Also engines with more thrust does not seem to give better acceleration all the time.

2. Turning rate. Same as acceleration additional engines has a diminishing increment.

3. Stealth rate. The formula given in the wiki is not consistent with what is displayed in the design window.

Thanks.



Alex Gilbert -> RE: Some numerical questions (5/9/2010 5:23:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Axefire

How exactly are the following computed:

1. Acceleration. Adding more engines does not linearly increase acceleration but its effect is diminishing. Also engines with more thrust does not seem to give better acceleration all the time.

2. Turning rate. Same as acceleration additional engines has a diminishing increment.

3. Stealth rate. The formula given in the wiki is not consistent with what is displayed in the design window.

Thanks.


1. True, there is a law of diminishing returns but I think that is appropriate. As for thrust, some more advanced engines have lower thrust but may be smaller/more efficeint (thrust per energy).

2. Turning rate is determined by your maneuvering engines rather than main thrust engines. As the ship gets bigger, turn rate decreases, so yes, you could see turn rate decrease with additional engines.

3. Have not looked much at stealth.




Fishman -> RE: Some numerical questions (5/9/2010 5:55:51 PM)

I imagine acceleration is a straightforward F=MA deal, although as you add engine, you increase not only F, but also M, so the increase will be nonlinear. "Top Speed" is somewhat more arcane, mostly because it has no real-world counterpart as such a thing does not exist in space.



Rustyallan -> RE: Some numerical questions (5/9/2010 6:12:02 PM)

At some point you'll add an engine, and your speed will go down due to the extra mass. Add an extra reactor and it'll start going up again.

Somewhere in the calculation is the energy supplied from the reactors. I've played around and just added a couple reactors WELL over my static usage and watched the acceleration and turning rate increase.



Axefire -> RE: Some numerical questions (5/10/2010 9:55:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alex Gilbert

1. True, there is a law of diminishing returns but I think that is appropriate. As for thrust, some more advanced engines have lower thrust but may be smaller/more efficeint (thrust per energy).

2. Turning rate is determined by your maneuvering engines rather than main thrust engines. As the ship gets bigger, turn rate decreases, so yes, you could see turn rate decrease with additional engines.


That much I have already found out. Was asking if somebody figured the actual formula.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

I imagine acceleration is a straightforward F=MA deal, although as you add engine, you increase not only F, but also M, so the increase will be nonlinear. "Top Speed" is somewhat more arcane, mostly because it has no real-world counterpart as such a thing does not exist in space.


There is a problem with the choice of terms used in DW. Engine specs uses the term "thrust." In physics thrust is force or F=MA as you have said. However, the design window shows the "speed" (velocity to be more precise), which can be deduced to be V=TotalThrust/TotalMass. This means that the "thrust" should really be "impulse," Impulse=MV.

The question now is how is the "acceleration" computed in the DW realm?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

At some point you'll add an engine, and your speed will go down due to the extra mass. Add an extra reactor and it'll start going up again.

Somewhere in the calculation is the energy supplied from the reactors. I've played around and just added a couple reactors WELL over my static usage and watched the acceleration and turning rate increase.


When I mentioned that there is a "diminishing return" for each additional engine, the incremental mass was compensated. In other words, the mass was made constant by adjusting other components.


I am wondering if anybody was able to figure out the formulae for the acceleration, rotation rate and stealth (galactopedia formula seems to be not consistent with the design window number).



Fishman -> RE: Some numerical questions (5/10/2010 12:29:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

At some point you'll add an engine, and your speed will go down due to the extra mass. Add an extra reactor and it'll start going up again.
If you addede an engine and speed went DOWN, and adding a reactor made it go back up, the culprint was not added mass, but that your engine was deadweight due to lack of power, and therefore contributed mass but not thrust. I've seen some really crazy torchcraft speeds where a ship, prior to fitting hardware, having only basic systems and engines attached, had speeds of 200-300+.



Axefire -> RE: Some numerical questions (5/10/2010 1:01:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rustyallan

At some point you'll add an engine, and your speed will go down due to the extra mass. Add an extra reactor and it'll start going up again.
If you addede an engine and speed went DOWN, and adding a reactor made it go back up, the culprint was not added mass, but that your engine was deadweight due to lack of power, and therefore contributed mass but not thrust. I've seen some really crazy torchcraft speeds where a ship, prior to fitting hardware, having only basic systems and engines attached, had speeds of 200-300+.


In my tests, the weapon energy usage is applied first on the excess energy before applying them to the engines (in the Design window numbers). Hence there are times when you add a reactor (of course mass too), the acceleration increases.

My previous posts/questions however have already considered this, there was no luck of reactor energy output and the mass was kept constant by an appropriate adjustment on other components.

The observation still remains that (mass kept constant and reactor energy output is more than enough) additional engine have diminishing acceleration increment.

Question is, has anyone found out the mathematical function that determines this behavior? If this function is asymptotic, it will indicate the maximum/optimum number of engines.

Perhaps Erik wants to help out on this.



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