A new mod is coming (Full Version)

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swatter555 -> A new mod is coming (5/11/2010 12:25:01 AM)

There are certain gameplay changes I have been wanting to mod since I have owned the game and I think I have decided finally to do it. The goal of this mod is to increase the challenge and realism in ToW. Here are some changes I am thinking about:

1) Changing the number of impulses during certain months. Winter offensives are way too easy and to me accelerate the end game a year or two. Here is my suggestion: Jan = 2, Feb = 2, March = 3, April = 3, May - Sept = 4, Oct = 3, Nov = 3, Dec = 2.

2) Entrechment and terrain defense bonuses. I would like to increase the maximum entrechment bonus to maybe 50%. I would also like to increase mountain defense bonus to may 150%.

3) BIG ONE! I want to increase the cost of infantry units to build maybe up to 400% their current level. Being able to field an infantry division for 5-10 pp is crazy unrealistic. I would be confortable with divisions costing between 20-30 pp and corps costing 60-70pp. I would only slightly increase to cost of armored units and motorized units. I would also love to prune the event database to cut out the free land units (except for key units the AI needs).

4) I want to change the resource locations in few cases. England needs some of her resources located in the ME.

5) All ships start the game undamaged.

6) I would like to create an event that univserally lowers effectiveness of units during winter, by maybe 50%. I addition, I want to create a special event to cripple the Germans during the first winter of an invasion of Russia.


Here is my initial list of changes, I want everyones input!



doomtrader -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/11/2010 9:46:00 AM)

Sounds interesting.
But I'm not sure how AI will handle point 3



borsook79 -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/11/2010 1:01:01 PM)

Some points here are interesting, but...
quote:

ORIGINAL: swatter555

3) BIG ONE! I want to increase the cost of infantry units to build maybe up to 400% their current level. Being able to field an infantry division for 5-10 pp is crazy unrealistic. I would be confortable with divisions costing between 20-30 pp and corps costing 60-70pp. I would only slightly increase to cost of armored units and motorized units. I would also love to prune the event database to cut out the free land units (except for key units the AI needs).

5) All ships start the game undamaged.

3 - why would you do such a thing? The result will be tank and motorized armies... Why would anyone use infantry if not for the cost? Esp since there is no oil in the game... 6 points for a inf div of lvl 1 is not a small amount. Such a unit does not present high combat value and upgrading does increase the cost properly. The only way when inf cost could be increased without breaking the game would be either increasing the cost of other units accordingly (but then what's the point?) or making amour and mech produce longer than 0 turns.
5 - why? I just do not see the point here. These are not ships but squadrons, damage reflects the size...

Other idea are very good, esp the ones about winter.



gwgardner -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/11/2010 5:21:07 PM)

any thought to zone of control, terrain movement costs, and AP changes? Current ZOC rules make breakthroughs almost impossible.



swatter555 -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/12/2010 12:06:28 AM)

6pps to field an infantry division is simply too cheap, same goes for a 20pp corps. We are talking about massive organizations here. I suppose what I want to see most of all is manpower added to the game. Maybe I will try for a 50% increase and see what happens. Maybe that wont cause the AI to wonk out.

doomtrader-

Could you tell me what winter weather events are already in the game? Is there a blizzard 41 event already?




Hairog -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/12/2010 12:18:54 AM)

Air units taking losses while attacking 0-4 units etc. I'm finding out that as modelled tactical air units are way too expensive and way too fragile to be worth anything.

Air units being able to "escort" naval units through coastal sea zones and be able to attack intercepting units both air and naval.

A limit to "Zerg" units. Currently I'm in a game where both sides have 1-4 units all over the place as cannon fodder. It's very silly and I'm as guilty as anyone for doing it. Possibly a overrun at 8-1 odds that would just cost a movement point but with no possible loss of strength and 100% loss for defender.

Diplomacy that makes some sense. If Italy wants to declare war on the US why can't it at any time etc.

No subs in fleets with surface ships. It didn't happen. Subs cannot keep up with surface ships and just didn't travel with them for any reason.



cpdeyoung -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/12/2010 1:11:59 AM)

I have to disagree with some of Harry's points.

The use of weaker troops in the line to slow the attacker is time honored and realistic.  It may not be fun for either side, but them "War is Hell".  If the Soviets cannot use cannon fodder there will be no line.

The player controlling Italy may very well want to declare war on the USA, but Italy did not.  The diplomatic system must make sure the player controlling the Axis does not subordinate all the Axis Minors to Germany's will.  It just did not happen that way.

Chuck



Hairog -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/12/2010 1:59:27 AM)

Hey Chuck: "The use of weaker troops in the line to slow the attacker is time honored and realistic. It may not be fun for either side, but them "War is Hell". If the Soviets cannot use cannon fodder there will be no line."

I actually have no problem with it happening in the East but not in France. I don't know how many board games I've played where you had over run rules. You could still use cannon fodder and Zergs but they would not cause losses to the attacking forces (sometimes up to 50%) nor prevent breakouts. As I said maybe a movement penalty at the most. Taking three 7 to 1 attacks to destroy a 0-1 unit is a little much IMO. Hey maybe I'm wrong and just have never seen it before. Can you name some games that this happens besides StarCraft ;).

"The player controlling Italy may very well want to declare war on the USA, but Italy did not. The diplomatic system must make sure the player controlling the Axis does not subordinate all the Axis Minors to Germany's will. It just did not happen that way.

So we are doomed to only repeat history? That's no fun. I want alternatives and unpredictability not rinse, repeat, wash, rinse, repeat, wash. I understand and crave rules that force logical choices but not ones that offer no choices. Maybe in the case where the Axis controls both Germany and Italy directly but not in a multi player game where each nation is able to do as it wishes. Maybe a huge penalty in domestic unrest would be in order but it should be possible for a crazed lunatic to declare war on anyone at any time.



Tomokatu -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/12/2010 10:40:33 PM)

quote:

but it should be possible for a crazed lunatic to declare war on anyone at any time.
You really DO need to be playing against a human instead of an AI to achieve that level of unpredictability.[sm=comp16.gif]



swatter555 -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/12/2010 11:08:16 PM)

Hairog, I don't think many of the things you mentioned are moddable. I think airstrike losses are moddable and something I could look at. Certainly with lower strength units air-versus-ground can be very ineffecient. At the same time, it works well with stronger units. Ill take a look at it, though.



Hairog -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/13/2010 12:02:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: swatter555

Hairog, I don't think many of the things you mentioned are moddable. I think airstrike losses are moddable and something I could look at. Certainly with lower strength units air-versus-ground can be very ineffecient. At the same time, it works well with stronger units. Ill take a look at it, though.


The would be great. Thanks



axisandallies -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/13/2010 3:48:40 AM)

Hey Swatter555, how about a ww1 mod?



swatter555 -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/13/2010 5:39:52 AM)

Well beyond my scope of interest.



AH4Ever -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/13/2010 5:52:13 PM)

I like increasing the defense bonuses, if possible I would make mountains impassible to corps size units.

If you feel that units are too inexpensive how about starting a game with varied difficulty levels.



swatter555 -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/13/2010 7:42:22 PM)

That might be a solution, but to me there is something inherently wrong with creating massive organizations so cheaply. I will experiment and only accept changes that have measurable and positive effect on the game.



axisandallies -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/14/2010 2:00:53 AM)

I would like to see a game with just divisions. Right now this games has far to many Corps sized units at the start of the game. Ok so I counted them and checked my history books. the 1939 scn has 33 German corps at the start of 1939!!!!! I think only 12 corps took part in the OB against Poland. Also there are two Panzer corps that I could not find in any history books that took part in Poland.



swatter555 -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/14/2010 2:52:09 AM)

If I had all the time in the world, I might make a smaller European map and use only corps. That being said, in order for this game to work with divisions, you would need some sort of stacking.



axisandallies -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/14/2010 3:10:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: swatter555

If I had all the time in the world, I might make a smaller European map and use only corps. That being said, in order for this game to work with divisions, you would need some sort of stacking.


I like your counter mod swatter, keep up the good work.



doomtrader -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/14/2010 11:13:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

I would like to see a game with just divisions. Right now this games has far to many Corps sized units at the start of the game. Ok so I counted them and checked my history books. the 1939 scn has 33 German corps at the start of 1939!!!!! I think only 12 corps took part in the OB against Poland. Also there are two Panzer corps that I could not find in any history books that took part in Poland.


Most of the OOB was based on this data:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/000_admin/000oob.htm



axisandallies -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/14/2010 11:51:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader


quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies

I would like to see a game with just divisions. Right now this games has far to many Corps sized units at the start of the game. Ok so I counted them and checked my history books. the 1939 scn has 33 German corps at the start of 1939!!!!! I think only 12 corps took part in the OB against Poland. Also there are two Panzer corps that I could not find in any history books that took part in Poland.


Most of the OOB was based on this data:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/000_admin/000oob.htm

Good site, however most of those so called armee korps where just name only units, or units being formed. If the Germans had 33 korps, like in this game, plus the two Panzer korps that is also in this game the could have over taken Poland in a week. I have read the German order of battle by Stackpole military history series.
I Korps 1939 Formed 1921 Poland
II korps 1939 formed 1921 Poland
III Panzer Korps formed 1921 Poland fought as and Infantry korps
IV korps formed 1921 Poland
V korps formed 1921 {was not active for Poland}
VI korps formed in 1921 Poland
VII korps formed in 1921 Poland
VIII Korps formed in 1938 Poland
IX korps formed in 1935 Poland
X korps formed in 1935 Poland
XI korps formed in 1938 Poland
XII korps formed in 1936 [was not active in Poland}
XIII Korps formed in1937 Poland
XIV Panzer Korps formed in 1938 Poland {fought as a Mot Korps}
XV Mot Korps formed in 1938 poland {fought as a light inf korps}
XVI Mot Korps formed in 1938 Poland [ formed to control Germany's three panzer divisions}
XVII Korps formed in 1938 Poland
XIX Korps formed in 1939 Poland
XX Korps formed in 1939 Poland
XXVI korps formed in 1939 Poland
XXX Korps formed in 1939 Poland

so that 19 korps, not the 33 the game has, and Germany had just one Panzer Korps at start of 1939.



Severian -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/16/2010 6:28:53 PM)

axisandallies - first of all high number of the corpses is caused by large number corp or army level reserve units. I will show you that.
Second thing is that it seems we had diffrent data about historical corpses of Wehrmacht. I'm sure Germans had 1st November 1939 17 corpses grouped in Heeresgruppen Nord and Sud. Additional 6 they had in HG C (western border). And this isn't end of German corps-size units.

- HG Nord
Additional Army Group level units
3 infantry divisions
-- 3. Armee
--- I. Armeekorps
--- XXI. Armeekorps
--- Gruppe Brand (fortress of Konigsberg, Goldap and Lotzen. Equivalent of 2 infantry divisions)
--- Stab Wodrig (1st and 12th Infantry Division, 31st Grenztwacht Regiment)
Additional army level units:
217th Infantry Division, Division-size Danzig Group, 15th GrentzschutzAbschitzKommando, few independent battalions
-- 4. Armee
--- II. Armeekorps
--- III. Armeekorps
--- XIX. Armeekorps (mot)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 1 (207th Infantry Division, 2 border regiments, medium artillery battalion)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 2 (4 border regiments, 2 medium artillery battalions)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 12 (6 border regiments, 2 artillery battalions)
Additional army level units:
2 infantry division

Look at that, you see only 5 corpses, I see 7-11 corpses. You had to realize that mine interpretation of OoB may be diffrent than yours. Every HG had army grou, army and corps levels units. When I had few infantry divisions id one place and one of the game rules is: "one unit, one hex", I had no way - I must group them in corps-size unit.

Why we had 2 armoured corpses? Have a look at that.
- 10. Armee - general Reichenau had two light divisions under his control as army commander. These divisions weren't light infantry divisions, but armoured. 1st Leichte Division (with attached Panzer-Regiment 25) had 300 tanks, 3rd Leichte had 80 tanks. It gave us unit stronger than single German armoured division, but why so strong? Because of additional army group-size units like motorised antitank guns battalion or artillery battalions.
- XVIII. Armeekorps - it had 4th Leichte Division (62 tanks) and 2nd Armoured Division (322 tanks). It gave us unit as strong, as 10. Armee units directly commanded by Reichenau.

At the end - with my system of "stacking" it won't be a mistake to add next 10 corpses to historical 23 official Army Corpses of German Army. If I had 5 divisions in small area, I had to trade-off between game mechanics and history.


I hope you understand now how the OoB has been created.



axisandallies -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/17/2010 2:36:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Severian

axisandallies - first of all high number of the corpses is caused by large number corp or army level reserve units. I will show you that.
Second thing is that it seems we had diffrent data about historical corpses of Wehrmacht. I'm sure Germans had 1st November 1939 17 corpses grouped in Heeresgruppen Nord and Sud. Additional 6 they had in HG C (western border). And this isn't end of German corps-size units.

- HG Nord
Additional Army Group level units
3 infantry divisions
-- 3. Armee
--- I. Armeekorps
--- XXI. Armeekorps
--- Gruppe Brand (fortress of Konigsberg, Goldap and Lotzen. Equivalent of 2 infantry divisions)
--- Stab Wodrig (1st and 12th Infantry Division, 31st Grenztwacht Regiment)
Additional army level units:
217th Infantry Division, Division-size Danzig Group, 15th GrentzschutzAbschitzKommando, few independent battalions
-- 4. Armee
--- II. Armeekorps
--- III. Armeekorps
--- XIX. Armeekorps (mot)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 1 (207th Infantry Division, 2 border regiments, medium artillery battalion)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 2 (4 border regiments, 2 medium artillery battalions)
--- Grz.Sch.Abschn.Kdo. 12 (6 border regiments, 2 artillery battalions)
Additional army level units:
2 infantry division

Look at that, you see only 5 corpses, I see 7-11 corpses. You had to realize that mine interpretation of OoB may be diffrent than yours. Every HG had army grou, army and corps levels units. When I had few infantry divisions id one place and one of the game rules is: "one unit, one hex", I had no way - I must group them in corps-size unit.

Why we had 2 armoured corpses? Have a look at that.
- 10. Armee - general Reichenau had two light divisions under his control as army commander. These divisions weren't light infantry divisions, but armoured. 1st Leichte Division (with attached Panzer-Regiment 25) had 300 tanks, 3rd Leichte had 80 tanks. It gave us unit stronger than single German armoured division, but why so strong? Because of additional army group-size units like motorised antitank guns battalion or artillery battalions.
- XVIII. Armeekorps - it had 4th Leichte Division (62 tanks) and 2nd Armoured Division (322 tanks). It gave us unit as strong, as 10. Armee units directly commanded by Reichenau.

At the end - with my system of "stacking" it won't be a mistake to add next 10 corpses to historical 23 official Army Corpses of German Army. If I had 5 divisions in small area, I had to trade-off between game mechanics and history.


I hope you understand now how the OoB has been created.

quote:


- 10. Armee - general Reichenau had two light divisions under his control as army commander. These divisions weren't light infantry divisions, but armoured. 1st Leichte Division (with attached Panzer-Regiment 25) had 300 tanks, 3rd Leichte had 80 tanks. It gave us unit stronger than single German armoured division, but why so strong? Because of additional army group-size units like motorised antitank guns battalion or artillery battalions.


German Light divisions;
the original light divisions were formed begining in 1934-1936, and four (numbered 1st through 4th) were in existence when the Wehrmacht invaded Poland in 1939. They consisted of two motorized rifle regiments, a tank battalion, a recon regiment and numerous supporting units. They proved to be too unwiedly in Poland, and in the winter of 1939-1940 converted into panzer units. (page 14 vol 1 German order of battle. stacckpole military history series.) 3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.



swatter555 -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/17/2010 6:19:20 AM)

My mod isn't going to be dealing with OOB issues.

What I have been playing around with (in addition to the changes already mentioned) is a new units mod. My old mod provided tons of easy to see info, and in that sense I prefer my old mod, but in a purely visual sense I like my new mod. Peter123 inspired these creations, but I decided to add some consistency and lots more info. Take a look, but keep in mind I have only modded german units at this point.

[image]local://upfiles/5981/57E187F53CD842978405B2AC75119284.jpg[/image]



doomtrader -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/17/2010 11:52:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies
German Light divisions;
the original light divisions were formed begining in 1934-1936, and four (numbered 1st through 4th) were in existence when the Wehrmacht invaded Poland in 1939. They consisted of two motorized rifle regiments, a tank battalion, a recon regiment and numerous supporting units. They proved to be too unwiedly in Poland, and in the winter of 1939-1940 converted into panzer units. (page 14 vol 1 German order of battle. stacckpole military history series.) 3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/leichte%20Panzerdivisionen/1leDiv.htm
quote:

Die Division verfügte so am 1. September 1939 65 Panzern II, 112 Panzer 38t, 41 Panzer IV und 8 Panzerbefehlswagen 35t

65+112+41+8=226



Severian -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/17/2010 12:58:12 PM)

quote:

3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.  

1. Leichte-Division wasn't normal light division. It had permanently one tank battalion, Panzer-Abteilung 65 (73 tanks), and one tank regiment, Panzer-Regiment 11 (153 tanks). Temporarly attached to this division was additionaly Panzer-Regiment 25 (74 tanks).

2. Leichte-Division had 85 tanks (41 Panzer I, 42 Panzer II, 2 command tanks).
3. Leichte-Division had 80 tanks (23 Panzer II, 55 Panzer 38(t), 2 command tanks).
4. Leichte-Division had 62 tanks (34 Panzer I, 23 Panzer II, 5 command tanks).



Hairog -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/17/2010 9:05:44 PM)

Looking good Swatter. Is there an indication of the tech level that I can't see?



axisandallies -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/17/2010 10:43:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Severian

quote:

3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.  

1. Leichte-Division wasn't normal light division. It had permanently one tank battalion, Panzer-Abteilung 65 (73 tanks), and one tank regiment, Panzer-Regiment 11 (153 tanks). Temporarly attached to this division was additionaly Panzer-Regiment 25 (74 tanks).

2. Leichte-Division had 85 tanks (41 Panzer I, 42 Panzer II, 2 command tanks).
3. Leichte-Division had 80 tanks (23 Panzer II, 55 Panzer 38(t), 2 command tanks).
4. Leichte-Division had 62 tanks (34 Panzer I, 23 Panzer II, 5 command tanks).

The point that I was making is this, the light divisions added up to one panzer division as far as Panzer divisions of 1939 go. And to say well these are reason to add a 2nd Panzer Korps to the German OOB, to me is absurd.



axisandallies -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/17/2010 10:45:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader


quote:

ORIGINAL: axisandallies
German Light divisions;
the original light divisions were formed begining in 1934-1936, and four (numbered 1st through 4th) were in existence when the Wehrmacht invaded Poland in 1939. They consisted of two motorized rifle regiments, a tank battalion, a recon regiment and numerous supporting units. They proved to be too unwiedly in Poland, and in the winter of 1939-1940 converted into panzer units. (page 14 vol 1 German order of battle. stacckpole military history series.) 3oo tanks? I don't think so. Each light division had at the max less than 50 tanks.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/leichte%20Panzerdivisionen/1leDiv.htm
quote:

Die Division verfügte so am 1. September 1939 65 Panzern II, 112 Panzer 38t, 41 Panzer IV und 8 Panzerbefehlswagen 35t

65+112+41+8=226

Anyone can make a website and put numbers in it. Source for these facts(on website) none. Look I don't want to fight, I love this game. I enjoy my own counters and that of others. 50% of stats can be altered 99% of the time. From what I have read on this I can find no source that would tell me that the Germans had 33 corps and 2 Panzer Korps as of September 1st, 1939. The Light divisions where just that light until after Poland.



axisandallies -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/17/2010 11:20:54 PM)

Since doomtrader thinks everyone can read German, I will put it in English, and add history mixed with it.
6th Panzer Division: aka 1st light division.
Created as the 1st Light Division, this unit was composed of Westphalians and Rhinelanders. It initially contained tthe 4th Medhanized Cavalry Regiment and the 65th Panzer Battalion. It took part in the occupation of the Sudetenland (1938) and Czechoslovakia (1939) and fought in southern Poland in September 1939. It was converted to a panzer division that winter after the German High Command pronounced its light divisions experiment a failure. The 1st Light Division was redesignated the 6th Panzer Division on October 18th, 1939. This unit isn't even in the 1939 grand scn. The 5th panzer division played a minor and inconspicuous role in Poland yet this unit is on the map in 1939. the 10tth Panzer played a reserve roll as well, but in this game it's right on the front lines.



swatter555 -> RE: A new mod is coming (5/18/2010 3:49:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hairog

Looking good Swatter. Is there an indication of the tech level that I can't see?


Thanks. Yes, I put the vanilla tech indicator off to the side of the flag.



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