AI Colonization Choices

AI Colonization Choices (Full Version)

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Shark7 -> AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 4:14:10 AM)
Any one else notice just how random this seems to be? Not so much random, but the AI instead of expanding outwards will send a colony ship halfway across the map to take a planet in your territory...or for one with a group of alien population that reject it...or for a resource it needs. And while this might be a good thing, it is also a logistics nightmare and from the standpoint of economics makes zero sense. I think the AI needs to have its colonization choice formula redone a bit that weights it more toward planets closer to its own territory. Either that or a rule in place for both player and AI that colonies cannot be formed more than a certain distance from the empires current 'border'. What I'm hoping for is a more gradual expansion, and the AI empires being more able to mount a credible defense. As it is, they are spread so thin that assaulting them is quite easy. This is due to having colonies from one side of the map to the other...the AI empires simply can't gather a fleet fast enough to defend anything. Anyone else feel this way?

Astax -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 7:15:11 AM)
I think its more complex than that. There is a Distance variable, so it's hard to argue that the AI does not take this into consideration. Most often I seen this behavior in AI that did not have a place to expand (Because there was none or they have not explored enough), and was given mapsby anotehr empire. These maps revealed places across the galaxy to the AI.

lostsm -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 11:35:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shark7 Any one else notice just how random this seems to be? Not so much random, but the AI instead of expanding outwards will send a colony ship halfway across the map to take a planet in your territory...or for one with a group of alien population that reject it...or for a resource it needs. And while this might be a good thing, it is also a logistics nightmare and from the standpoint of economics makes zero sense. I think the AI needs to have its colonization choice formula redone a bit that weights it more toward planets closer to its own territory. Either that or a rule in place for both player and AI that colonies cannot be formed more than a certain distance from the empires current 'border'. What I'm hoping for is a more gradual expansion, and the AI empires being more able to mount a credible defense. As it is, they are spread so thin that assaulting them is quite easy. This is due to having colonies from one side of the map to the other...the AI empires simply can't gather a fleet fast enough to defend anything. Anyone else feel this way? 100% agree. and the smaller the map you play on, the more obvious the AI's ineptitude to colonize properly shows imo

Kruos -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 11:40:32 AM)
I agree that it seems to be some issue in the colonization algo. I posted about that in the tech sub forum, as recently I noticed in one of my game that two empires do not colonize at all, even after +20 years of game. I have done some investigations and I have found nothing to explain that. Here is the thread I started in the tech sub forum : http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2471441 After this I have done the following test 1) start a new galaxy 2) let it live during 10 years 3) look at it with the editor It appears that the same thing happened : on 19 IAs, some (~2-3) have absolutely colonized nothing, whereas very nice and colonizable planet are in their sight and available (sometime in their own homeworld!). Cash available, no wars... Very strange...

Bartje -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 12:02:43 PM)
So they should explore better? Maybe they just don't find the planets?

Erik Rutins -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 12:31:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kruos It appears that the same thing happened : on 19 IAs, some (~2-3) have absolutely colonized nothing, whereas very nice and colonizable planet are in their sight and available (sometime in their own homeworld!). Cash available, no wars... Are you playing with the option for independent worlds to form their own empires? If so, that could explain the appearance of AI empires that seem to have not expanded, since they would have recently formed from a single world and may not yet have the resources to colonize outside their system.

Fishman -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 12:48:07 PM)
I have seen this behavior before as well, but they are not independent empires that grew up, but rather, AI empires that simply rolled bad combinations of race/government. This is actually somewhat of a problem. You've frequently asked players who seem to be spiralling into bankruptcy what their race/government is, but the thing is, because the AI can use any combination, ALL combinations must be viable. If a combination of race/government is completely nonviable and will be in the red from square one, it should not be chosen by the AI and players should be warned against it.

Astax -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 1:28:30 PM)
I would go so far as to say such a combination should not exist.

Erik Rutins -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 2:32:28 PM)
Fishman, Which combinations are you seeing that aren't viable? I think I've tried them all at this point and while some are worse at generating money than others (and have other advantages in exchange), they all do work. Regards, - Erik

Shark7 -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 4:15:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins quote: ORIGINAL: Kruos It appears that the same thing happened : on 19 IAs, some (~2-3) have absolutely colonized nothing, whereas very nice and colonizable planet are in their sight and available (sometime in their own homeworld!). Cash available, no wars... Are you playing with the option for independent worlds to form their own empires? If so, that could explain the appearance of AI empires that seem to have not expanded, since they would have recently formed from a single world and may not yet have the resources to colonize outside their system. I'll answer this one. I have seen AI empires that I have treaties with and trade maps with not expand. These empires were there from the start. They will eventually colonize a new world, but the game has often been running 10 years or more. In this case, I think it may actually be an economy problem though. The other real problem is that not just 1 or 2, but all the AI empires tend to colonize worlds at the max possible distance, rather than going for the closer colonizable worlds first.

Kruos -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 4:23:46 PM)
quote: Are you playing with the option for independent worlds to form their own empires? If so, that could explain the appearance of AI empires that seem to have not expanded, since they would have recently formed from a single world and may not yet have the resources to colonize outside their system. As explained in my post in the tech forum (http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2471441), this option is not checked, in other word independant colonies are not allowed to become independant empire. Moreover I have check with the editor the galaxy and the IAs at the start (just after galaxy generation) and ten years later, to see how each IAs had evolved. So these small empires cant be the result of independant colonies becoming empire because they were already one of the 19 IAs empire at the start. quote: I have seen this behavior before as well, but they are not independent empires that grew up, but rather, AI empires that simply rolled bad combinations of race/government. This is actually somewhat of a problem. You've frequently asked players who seem to be spiralling into bankruptcy what their race/government is, but the thing is, because the AI can use any combination, ALL combinations must be viable. If a combination of race/government is completely nonviable and will be in the red from square one, it should not be chosen by the AI and players should be warned against it. I dont think that this problem is related to the race/government economical consequences. At the start every empires have enough cash to buy many colony ship, so if it was a cash related issue, they would at least have some colonies (the one colonized before going into bankrupt), or in my tests it appears that they have only one colonie, their homeworld, even after 10-20 years... I have saves available for investigation if needed, but the simpler is to try it yourself : all sliders on normal, 1400 stars, 19IAs randomly generated, independant not allowed to become empire, save just at the start, let it live 10-20 years and then see with the editor how empires have evolved. ;)

Spacecadet -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 4:24:01 PM)
I've seen this too, but I've also seen that there can be contributing factors. How many Pirates have you selected? Since the game seems to park Pirate bases right next to Colony Systems, I've seen AI Colonies getting hammered by Pirates. Let's not forget about the Slugs, Lobsters, and Jellyfish - I've had a few challenges taking a Planet due to these before myself. Everyone needs luxuries and resources, these aren't always easily accessible - especially 10 different luxury resources. Throw in that only certain types of Planets for the associated Race are Colonizable early on, and that sometimes these type of Planets aren't nearby. Add these all up, and sometimes it can be a real challenge for the AI to do much of anything for some time.

Shark7 -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 5:52:25 PM)
I took a screenshot of my current game because this is a perfect example of what has been happening. The green you see on the screenshot is all the same empire, same with the purple and bright yellow. The dark blue is mine, the lighter blues are two separate empires, one with formed from an independant. The bright red is a starting empire that has grown very, very little when compared with the other starting empires (as you can easily see). There is no rhyme or reason at all to the colonization routine if you go by this game. [image]local://upfiles/25927/5BD10594D0594E4EBF16B774DB05710D.jpg[/image]

Spacecadet -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 6:42:40 PM)
What are the resources of the colonized versus non-colonized Planets? Are the non-colonized Planets inhabitable by the nearby AI's Race? There may be other factors involved as well - Planet size, Other System resources, location (hop off point) for future expansion, etc. I'm not saying things are perfect or working like we want, but they may actually be working better than we're thinking [;)]

Erik Rutins -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 9:49:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kruos I dont think that this problem is related to the race/government economical consequences. At the start every empires have enough cash to buy many colony ship, so if it was a cash related issue, they would at least have some colonies (the one colonized before going into bankrupt), or in my tests it appears that they have only one colonie, their homeworld, even after 10-20 years... I have saves available for investigation if needed, but the simpler is to try it yourself : all sliders on normal, 1400 stars, 19IAs randomly generated, independant not allowed to become empire, save just at the start, let it live 10-20 years and then see with the editor how empires have evolved. ;) I tried exactly this. After about 20 years, the only AI empires that still had just one or two colonies were clearly ones that had started as independents. Their home worlds were often Deserts and they simply did not have enough cash or resources to expand further. If you have a save that shows a normal starting AI empire that's still on just one or two colonies after 20 years, I would be very interested in seeing it.

Kruos -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 10:07:25 PM)
quote: I tried exactly this. After about 20 years, the only AI empires that still had just one or two colonies were clearly ones that had started as independents. Their home worlds were often Deserts and they simply did not have enough cash or resources to expand further. If you have a save that shows a normal starting AI empire that's still on just one or two colonies after 20 years, I would be very interested in seeing it. Ok Erik I will upload the files. ;) (you can already look at the post I started in the tech forum)

Canute0 -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/19/2010 11:27:00 PM)
quote: I tried exactly this. After about 20 years, the only AI empires that still had just one or two colonies were clearly ones that had started as independents. Their home worlds were often Deserts and they simply did not have enough cash or resources to expand further. If you have a save that shows a normal starting AI empire that's still on just one or two colonies after 20 years, I would be very interested in seeing it. i dont think any of these small empire survive that long, they got eliminate mosttimes. At my current game 700ly, 15 Empire, no independe Empire. me 78 Colonies, biggest AI 26 Empire. .... 4 colonies at 2 system, kidian Monarchy 3 colonies 2 system. Zenox Monarchy And plenty of free colonies. a 2 colonies 1 system empire got eliminated by another AI empire.

Wayston -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/20/2010 11:02:52 AM)
I would prefer that, other factors like resources equal, the AI prefers to send out colony ships to planets located further away. In a competitive environment it makes more sense to expand outward first then fill in the gaps later, especially when the AI is reluctant to colonize in your existing home systems.

Shark7 -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/21/2010 12:10:06 AM)
OK, I am now 100% convinced the problem with the map side to map side empires has nothing to do with colonization weighting, but is in fact a diplomacy problem... That problem being that the AI is far to willing to trade maps with other empires. And this does not make sense. I don't give mine away. Why would I give a potential enemy the keys to the gate...so to speak. The AI is constantly hounding me about wanting to trade maps, and I can give the AI a trinket or a few thousand credits and get theirs. Another problem is the automatic map sharing between allied empires. While this might make sense, it also leads to the logistic nightmare that is DW colony expansion. The solution...Territory and Galaxy maps should be as well gaurded by AI empires as their unique tech is. You should need a near 100 relations favorability before the AI is willing to give up that information. After all, you do not want to give the map away to someone who might use it to attack you. Just a thought.

Kruos -> RE: AI Colonization Choices (5/21/2010 1:59:01 PM)
quote: OK, I am now 100% convinced the problem with the map side to map side empires has nothing to do with colonization weighting, but is in fact a diplomacy problem... That problem being that the AI is far to willing to trade maps with other empires. And this does not make sense. I don't give mine away. Why would I give a potential enemy the keys to the gate...so to speak. The AI is constantly hounding me about wanting to trade maps, and I can give the AI a trinket or a few thousand credits and get theirs. Another problem is the automatic map sharing between allied empires. While this might make sense, it also leads to the logistic nightmare that is DW colony expansion. The solution...Territory and Galaxy maps should be as well gaurded by AI empires as their unique tech is. You should need a near 100 relations favorability before the AI is willing to give up that information. After all, you do not want to give the map away to someone who might use it to attack you. I dont know. But I am pretty sure that it is not cash related or exploration related. From my observations it is very strange : sometime, for unknown cause, some empire do not colonize any planets, even after more than 20 years after the start, and even if a very nice continental planet is available in their own homeworld and they have cash available to buy a colony ship (!). Very strange. quote: If you have a save that shows a normal starting AI empire that's still on just one or two colonies after 20 years, I would be very interested in seeing it. Any news?

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