Some discussion of 1.0.5 (Full Version)

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Erik Rutins -> Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 4:08:47 PM)

Hi everyone,

While we finish up the second 1.0.4 update, we've started work on 1.0.5. 1.0.5 will be a pretty major update in several respects. One thing it should do is to significantly improve save/load speed and save size, which will mean that it will unfortunately not work with older saves, unlike the updates we've released to date. 1.0.5 will also rebalance weapons and other components to some degree.

We've also discussed fleet "behaviors" for some time as a real solution to the various differences in player opinion on how ships and fleets should behave. The current plan is to implement the following in 1.0.5:


We'll be adding a feature called stance for each ship and fleet. Stance will control how ships auto-engage enemy targets. The stance will be one of the following values:

* Engage when attacked
* Engage nearby targets (within approx 2000 screen pixels)
* Engage targets in the same system

There'll also be some handy shortcuts for this so that you can have default stances for mission types, so that when you assign ships or fleets a mission they'll switch to your preferred stance, e.g. patrol missions might default to "Engage targets in same system", whereas escort missions might default to "Engage nearby targets". These defaults will be set for your empire in the game options screen.

We'll also expose the "overkill" value in the game options screen. This value determines how many ships are assigned to handle an enemy target, so that only the necessary attack strength is assigned to each target (instead of all ships rushing off to the nearest target). This value is currently hardcoded to 2, but we'll allow players to set this value themselves.

For auto-refuel we'll be making some exceptions so that some mission types do not auto-refuel, e.g. invading a colony (drop troops) or colonizing.

We'll share more news on 1.0.5 as we get closer. We expect the second 1.0.4 update to possibly go official this week and the first 1.0.5 Public Beta should show up by mid-June.

Regards,

- Erik



VarekRaith -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 4:16:29 PM)

[sm=bow.gif]



cmdrnarrain -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 4:20:43 PM)

Looks great, but specifics would look even better.



taltamir -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 4:21:28 PM)

pretty neat.
In regards to auto-refuel. by "mission type" do you mean "type of ship" or "orders given"?
because by default troopships have weapons, and cruisers, capital ships, and destroyers all come with troop pods. If your troopship gets in a shootout with someone and they run out of fuel (thus, their weapons no longer work), then they should break off to refuel. likewise, if you order a capital ship low on fuel to drop its troops on a planet via invade it should also do so. So it would be best if it is based on command rather then ship type.
Likewise, a colony ship used in exploration or even just sitting idle would benefit from auto-refuel.

So I think auto-refuel should simply not cancel an existing order to colonize a planet, or an existing order to invade a planet with troops. rather then completely exclude specific ship types. (and order to attack though is fine to cancel to auto-refuel, because weapons don't actually work without fuel; likewise with an order to move to a location thanks to it resuming the last order given when done refueling)



Arnir -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 4:35:02 PM)

I might have missed it, but will fleets start moving as a group and arriving as a group?



Bartje -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 4:50:57 PM)

Great to hear about the improved save & loading!

Can't wait![:)]



jscott991 -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:20:00 PM)

Corruption slider?

Mass troop loading command?

These things look very minor to me, but maybe that's a sign of the game finally getting over the major issue hump.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:20:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991
Corruption slider?
Mass troop loading command?


Yes, I've already mentioned that those are planned for 1.0.5.



Dadekster -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:36:49 PM)

Very nice to see these extra layers of control being granted. As long as you can make the macro players happy by allowing them the option of not having to deal with making decisions I say this is win win. That's assuming it works as intended, but that's what the beta is for [;)]

I also enjoy watching the tightrope act you guys are having to perform regarding 'player opinions' ...not envious of that at all am I. [:'(]



nammafia -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:40:37 PM)

Thank you for your continuing support of this game.

The default stance for escort missions should be "Engage when Attacked" because the ships might start chasing pirates when the default stance is "Engage nearby targets". I understand that you have not finalized anything yet but I just want to put my two cents in.



Joram -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:43:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

I might have missed it, but will fleets start moving as a group and arriving as a group?


Agreed, this is a big oversight to omit this. I find fleets tedious to manage for this reason and more often than not, I simply use the ctrl keys on a group of ships since being in a fleet adds almost zero value.

Also, it doesn't look like the root issue of the AI overriding manual commands is addressed. Having 'stances' is only a partial solution especially since you don't have a 'Do Not Engage' option with the intent that the unit will only engage if ordered manually. But ideally, any manual command will override any AI command. I don't mind the AI taking a first guess at the intended action based on these settings but I want to be able to override it.



taltamir -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:45:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nammafia

Thank you for your continuing support of this game.

The default stance for escort missions should be "Engage when Attacked" because the ships might start chasing pirates when the default stance is "Engage nearby targets". I understand that you have not finalized anything yet but I just want to put my two cents in.


isn't that a total waste of an escort ship? your private sector has 10 freighters per planet in your empire (based on my observations)... that means my 700 planet (and moons) empire has 7000 freighters.
If you are in system A, and there is a pirate there attacking freighters, an escort should fight it. Why would the escort ignore the pirate in the same system just because it has been randomly assigned to guard freighter #5078 when the system currently has fifty freighters in it being slaughtered one by one?

Escorts should travel alongside freighters as they do their rounds, but when a pirate or a space monster is eating your ships and bases they should converge to kill it and then return to their patrols, rather then ignore the threat and just fly around in circles doing absolutely nothing.



RViener -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:45:23 PM)

Erik, I would appreciate a more complete list of planned improvments for 1.05 so I and otheres know what to expect.
Thanks in advance.



deanco2 -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:54:48 PM)

This sounds like just what the doctor ordered re automation.

If I can make a suggestion: To my way of thinking, you only need 2 stances: Engage when attacked, and engage targets in same system.  It seems that Engage when attacked would have basically the same effect as Engage within 2000 pixels or whatever.  I remember one user who sent a lone ship to the other side of a pirate base and complained (rightly, I think) that the ship crossed the system and attacked the base.  'Engage if attacked' would probably stop that ship from attacking.  The 2000 pixel thing sounds like the default behavior for ships on automate, and if I want that to happen, I can just put them on auto.  Honestly, I can't think of a use for that 2000 pixel command, although others might.

On the other hand, a command like 'you are authorized to move 1 system in any direction to attack, then return to your home base when battle ends', this, I can imagine a use for.



nammafia -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 5:58:10 PM)

I was thinking about manual control. If I want a ship to escort a freighter, I don't want the ship to engage any nearby non-threatening targets en route to destination. If ships are on automation mode then by all mean they should engage nearby target. Any, Erik mentions stance are options so I can choose whatever I like. Good stuffs.



taltamir -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 7:55:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nammafia

I was thinking about manual control. If I want a ship to escort a freighter, I don't want the ship to engage any nearby non-threatening targets en route to destination. If ships are on automation mode then by all mean they should engage nearby target. Any, Erik mentions stance are options so I can choose whatever I like. Good stuffs.


I understood that part, my point is, you have thousands of freighters... dozens to hundreds in that system alone...
There is no such thing as a "non-threatening" target... it might not attack that one freighter its currently guarding, but it will slaughter freighter after freighter. You are basically saying you want your escorts to ignore hostiles and drive around in circles doing absolutely nothing but burn fuel and cost money. I am asking you WHY do you want that, what possible reason would you want them to drive around in circles doing nothing instead of killing the pirate who is slaughtering your freighters in that system, just because it is assigned to freighter #5762 and the pirate has so far only killed freighters 5222, 1276, 1485 and 5822 which do not have an escort assigned to them.
Now, I could see not engaging more powerful targets that would kill them, and not engaging targets in systems that do not belong to you... I guess you could say that if they don't attack any ship you own then they should be ignored. like a space monster sitting still at an unpopulated planet and NOT attacking any of your ships. Is that what you meant?



jscott991 -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 11:14:01 PM)

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.

This is too night and day. I find Securans or marsh dwellers or whatever early in every game. Once this explosion of colony choices happens, you can leave the AI in the dust in terms of planet count within a few years.

There needs to be some limit on the ability to build colony ships at alien-populated worlds that confer the equivalent benefit to an advanced colonization module.

Frankly, it should be as simple as not allowing me to found colonies with these new races until I can build colony ships capable of landing on desert planets or marshes or whatever. Getting that technology cheaply by finding another race kind of spoils the early game.



Spacecadet -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 11:23:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.

This is too night and day. I find Securans or marsh dwellers or whatever early in every game. Once this explosion of colony choices happens, you can leave the AI in the dust in terms of planet count within a few years.

There needs to be some limit on the ability to build colony ships at alien-populated worlds that confer the equivalent benefit to an advanced colonization module.

Frankly, it should be as simple as not allowing me to found colonies with these new races until I can build colony ships capable of landing on desert planets or marshes or whatever. Getting that technology cheaply by finding another race kind of spoils the early game.


What about the Dhayut, and maybe even another Race or so?

They can colonize multiple Planet types right off the bat.
And there are still quite a few Ocean Planets for those that can colonize them.





Kruos -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/19/2010 11:28:26 PM)

quote:

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.

This is too night and day. I find Securans or marsh dwellers or whatever early in every game. Once this explosion of colony choices happens, you can leave the AI in the dust in terms of planet count within a few years.

There needs to be some limit on the ability to build colony ships at alien-populated worlds that confer the equivalent benefit to an advanced colonization module.

Frankly, it should be as simple as not allowing me to found colonies with these new races until I can build colony ships capable of landing on desert planets or marshes or whatever. Getting that technology cheaply by finding another race kind of spoils the early game.


Full agree with that.

And I also add that even if you play at normal research rate, the advantage to have news races in your empire is so huge that colonization tech are pretty useless in fact.

Like jscott I think that the simplest thing to do is to not give the 'colonization ability' when a new race imigrate. Maybe also in the same time slighty tweak the tech value of colonization tech (I think to a reduction of its value, but this need some tests).

And isn't it more realistic in fact? I mean, these news people are immigrants, so if they come to you or accept your colonization, it is that they like your style of living, and adapt themselves to your culture and learn to live by your ways, progressively forgeting their original style of living... some call it "assimilation". :)



tkobo -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 1:44:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
While we finish up the second 1.0.4 update, we've started work on 1.0.5. 1.0.5 will be a pretty major update in several respects. One thing it should do is to significantly improve save/load speed and save size, which will mean that it will unfortunately not work with older saves, unlike the updates we've released to date.
Regards,- Erik

Does this mean the save load error will be fixed ?



lostsm -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 2:17:58 AM)

more for modding



vengen -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 2:29:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kruos

And I also add that even if you play at normal research rate, the advantage to have news races in your empire is so huge that colonization tech are pretty useless in fact.



The issue of the colonization techs being rendered useless illustrates what I consider to be a problem with the techs in general - the early techs take too long to research and the late techs get researched too fast. If you start with basic tech, SY-200 takes decades to research. Meanwhile, some of the races can't build destroyers and troop transports, while others can. The player can redesign around this problem, but I'm not sure the AI can. Hopefully, the tech timing will get some more attention in 1.05.

In my opinion, the diplomacy message problems also need to be addressed fairly soon. The way that the diplomacy messages currently lock the the player out of the diplomacy screen and the research window make it impossible to respond to AI empires in a intelligent manner. Plus, the problem of only being able to reply to the second of two diplomacy messages that arrive in rapid succession needs to be addressed also. These two issues seriously degrade the diplomatic portion of the game.



Astax -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 2:50:07 AM)

Measuring stuff by pixels seems like a poor choice in a game that has zoom feature. Unless you mean 2000 pixels at zoom factor 1.0f or something akin to that. Only problem is I am not sure when I am at 1.0f.

I would like "Engage nearby targets" to be default for patrol mission. Unless you tell it to patrol the whole system.

Let's not get too carried away with the new races suggestions :) Less someone suggest a race of machines that can colonize only barren worlds, and maybe Ice eventually... Oh wait can I suggest that? :O

Overall I would love to see more modding options. Like options to add more than 20 races, so that mod races become available. Options to set colonization of planets for a race that include planets not currently allowed, like barren and gas giant. This could lead to adding new races to the game via mods, which would be awesome. Unless you guys are deliberately holding that cat in the bag. And making any new races an expansion exclusive.

jscott991: I think if we eliminate the colonizing benefit it would be a huge nerf to exploration, as well as a nerf to buying info from pirates.  Though it may be not that game breaking.  I find that acquiring a race that can colonize a new planet is at first not so powerful, because they can only build colony ships at that planet, and one at a time. Unless I'm wrong.  Later it gets more easy to spam colony ships once you colonize a couple. This is probably a problem with how easy it is to build colony ships in general.

vengen: I agree with early techs taking too long to research. But it's probably a balance issue. After all you don't want ton of cheap techs that make your designs obsolete every other month. And you don't wont to be retrofitting nonstop in the early growth/expansion phase.  Also IMO focusing research should only divert all the tech points from that branch of the tech tree, i.e weapons, energy, high tech or habitation. Not the whole tech tree.




Keston -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 3:09:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

I might have missed it, but will fleets start moving as a group and arriving as a group?


This can be handled simply by clickable toggle options on the fleet menu or info card in the left corner - move piecemeal or move together. SINS is similar.



taltamir -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 5:12:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.

For example, if I'm playing as humans, I can only colonize continental planets. This severely limits the number of colonies I can establish and makes the game challenging (in a good way) by giving me a typical growth curve (small empire, gradually becoming medium, then large).

However, if I find a planet of Securans, all bets are off. I can now colonize desert planets. If I find a population of humans on a march planet, I can now colonize marshy planets. I've doubled and tripled my colony totals in an instant.

This is too night and day. I find Securans or marsh dwellers or whatever early in every game. Once this explosion of colony choices happens, you can leave the AI in the dust in terms of planet count within a few years.

There needs to be some limit on the ability to build colony ships at alien-populated worlds that confer the equivalent benefit to an advanced colonization module.

Frankly, it should be as simple as not allowing me to found colonies with these new races until I can build colony ships capable of landing on desert planets or marshes or whatever. Getting that technology cheaply by finding another race kind of spoils the early game.


I am pretty sure this is an intended. The documentation even TELLS you about it... yes, finding certain species and gaining them for your empire is awesome, and is a priority.
I like that mechanic and wouldn't want it "addressed".
Instead of the typical "terraforming" tech rush every other 4X space game has, you are required to find unique races... with them giving you the ability to colonize deserts and marshes early, and ice, volcanic, and ocean at all.



Keston -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 8:43:51 AM)

It is still usually a mad land rush to pick up planets and then the scraps, with settlements scattered around.

There is something to be said for borders in space, but not rigid ones.  Maybe a power could stake claims - if someone else settles, it hurts relations, or maybe leads to war. Claims could be automatic in systems with a friendly colony or stats basically surrounded by friendly stars.   Colonizing independents or in their systems should be an exception to claims - must get there first.

I suppose a player could guarantee an independent - so can not colonize or attack, but it switches to loyalty to the player if attacked by others (and attack triggers war or at least acts like mutual defence pact).



fabio80mi -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 11:16:09 AM)

Very nice about stances.
Adding to your planned implementation it could be used also to have ship engage aggressively in time of war.. like engage enemy ships and structures within X (some measure here... 30 second of travel time/3 LY /1third of my fuel capacity,ecc).

Now i only have to wait for the biggest and terrible flaw the game currently have, no *real* modding capabilities, to be implemented to get back to it =)



Kruos -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 11:34:43 AM)

quote:

I am pretty sure this is an intended. The documentation even TELLS you about it... yes, finding certain species and gaining them for your empire is awesome, and is a priority.
I like that mechanic and wouldn't want it "addressed".
Instead of the typical "terraforming" tech rush every other 4X space game has, you are required to find unique races... with them giving you the ability to colonize deserts and marshes early, and ice, volcanic, and ocean at all.


Yes it is intended. Yes it is a nice feature of the game. But in my opinion some tweaking is needed here, because as it is designed, with default sliders, colonization tech are pretty useless.

The fact of removing the colonization ability would not remove the interest of exploring and colonizing other race, you would still gain the racial bonus which is nice and a great feature, but not the ability to colonize, that's all.

Maybe just add an option... :)



Fishman -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 11:53:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I doubt it will make 1.0.5, but one thing that needs to be addressed soon is the enormous advantage finding another species confers on you in the game. It can be the equivalent of discovering the advanced colonization modules years ahead of schedule. If you're playing in a game with slowed down research, it's a decisive advantage.
I don't really see this as a problem: It is by NO means a condition unique to you, the player. This is roughly the equivalent in Dominions of finding a particularly tasty independent province capable of making mages in the magics your nation lacks. Very nice, and significantly affects your gameplan, but at the same time, it is not a condition that is unique to a specific player, and can't even really be considered rare.



RViener -> RE: Some discussion of 1.0.5 (5/20/2010 12:07:26 PM)

Erik, Again I ask for a list of What's Broken and What's an Improvement that is planned from Matrix. There is a lot of stuff that works as planned but is not appreciated by some of the community. You and Elliot are the mavens and direct the process. I personally would like to see the game functioning as you and Codeforce think it should before introducing changes to that and documenting appropriately.
Thanks for listening.



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