Japanese CVE Air Groups? (Full Version)

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John 3rd -> Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/12/2010 7:53:07 PM)

Had the people brought up in the RA Thread on the Mod Forum about whether or not Japanese CVE had actual Air Groups assigned to them during the war. Hosho certainly did but I am do not know about any others.

Questions:
1. Did these CVE have Air Groups?
2. If so, then what...

I know that they wouldn't have Kates on them but did they carry Vals? Might seem like a stupid question but none of my resources speak on the topic. If you have an answer, I'd love to know your source.

Thanks for the help...




Terminus -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/12/2010 8:15:00 PM)

When the CVE's were made part of the convoy escort command they flew Kates only.



John 3rd -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/12/2010 10:59:19 PM)

Ugggg...Thanks Terminus. How many and where did you get your Info?



Terminus -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/12/2010 11:10:30 PM)

Info is very, very spotty on this. The CVE's were switched around all over the place, from escort to aircraft ferry to general transport and back to escort missions again as the IJN needed them. I've been looking at their TROMs on combinedfleet.com; here's a quote from Shinyo's:

9 November 1944:
Upon assignment of SHINYO to the important Luzon re-inforcement convoy HI-81, fourteen Kates of the 931 Air Squadron fly out from Saeki Naval Air Station and land on SHINYO.

Admittedly, this could be read as being a ferry mission, but why were the planes then landed on the ship, rather than being craned aboard in port?

Here's one from Kaiyo's TROM:

21 April 1944:
At 0700, departs Singapore with kaibokan ETOFORU, IKI, SHIMUSHU, CD-8 and CD-9 escorting convoy HI-58 consisting of oilers ITSUKUSHIMA, RYOEI, OMUROSAN and OTOWASAN MARUs, troop transport SHINSHU MARU, and probably ZUIHO and MAYASAN MARUs.

That same day, one of KAIYO's attack planes sights LtCdr Manning M. Kimmel's (son of former CINCPAC, ADM H. E. Kimmel) USS ROBALO (SS-273) on the surface about 15 miles behind the convoy. The plane drops two bombs on ROBALO and calls for assistance. IKI and CD-9 arrive and drop depth charges. ROBALO is damaged, but escapes.

I've never heard the Val referred to as an "attack plane"; this has always meant a torpedo plane, i.e. a Kate or Jill, and the latter is very unlikely on a CVE.

Admittedly, this is all circumstantial, and I was hasty in my previous post, but the Kate could be operated from CVE's and was.



John 3rd -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/12/2010 11:23:40 PM)

OK. Thanks again!

I am thinking of adding a Chutai of Nine Kates (non-upgradeable) to the Japanese CVEs for Reluctant Admiral. Would certainly leave room for additional planes so the carriers could be used for Ferries or carry more planes of other types. Seems to me to be a practical idea that is somewhat historically based.



Terminus -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/12/2010 11:35:05 PM)

The 931st Kokutai (a verifiable Kate unit) definitely provided aircraft for the Unyo, Shinyo and Kaiyo during the period Aug-Oct 1944. According to the previously-posted TROM, apparently also in April of that year.

Rounding out, it seems definite that the CVE's had no permanent air groups, but could and did operate Kates in the convoy escort mission.



Fishbed -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 6:23:16 AM)

If I remember Shattered Sword's remark about this, for the same reason CVLs wouldn't carry Vals because of space issues when it comes to elevator, I guess CVE wouldn't be able either.



Tone -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 6:37:35 AM)

Here is Kokutai fleet distribution for June 1944 -

601st kokutai Carrier Division 1 A6M5, D4Y, B6N Taiho, Shokaku, Zuikaku
652nd kokutai Carrier Division 2 A6M5 D3A B6N Hiyo, Junyo, Ryuho
653rd kokutai Carrier Division 3 A6M5 A6M2 B6N B5N Zuiho, Citose, Ciyoda
931 kokutai CVE Taiyo B5N

Thank you Tone.



CapAndGown -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 8:59:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

OK. Thanks again!

I am thinking of adding a Chutai of Nine Kates (non-upgradeable) to the Japanese CVEs for Reluctant Admiral. Would certainly leave room for additional planes so the carriers could be used for Ferries or carry more planes of other types. Seems to me to be a practical idea that is somewhat historically based.


I take it you are aware that the standard scenario 1 provides a Kate unit for each of 5 CVEs in late 1943?



bklooste -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 11:12:39 AM)

One question i had was one of the CVEs was assigned to cover BAT1 when it sailed on the 8th for Bonin islands ( in case the US Pacific fleet chased) ... What did it have and where did they get it from , since most of the Japan units are restricted ? Was it kates like later in the was ? was it Claudes/Zero for cap ?



Andy Mac -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 11:38:45 AM)

Because the AI is incaapable of putting sqns on carriers ALWAYS have at least 1 small fighter and 1 small strike sqn on board every carrier by default or else the AI will ignore the carrier



Tone -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 12:02:25 PM)

Taiyo and Hosho were assigned to CarDiv 4 - of the 1st Air Fleet - seconded to cover the Luzon Campaign. They were consider to be surplus to requirement by naval commander in area - and sent from Takao to Sasebo on 7 November 1941. Taiyo was at Palau at start of war delivering type 96 fighters. Only information I have on 1941 airgroup is that Taiyo and Hosho share 12 B5N attack aircraft from 631 Kokutai between them - Thank you Tone.



Terminus -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 12:11:33 PM)

You sure? I was under the impression that the Hosho never deployed operationally with anything but an A5M/B4Y air group...



Tone -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 12:47:26 PM)

Not sure I am - because I can not confirm this information - which I found in cross reference in TROM for one of the Maru carriers. Also 631 Kokutai worries me of - because it could be error with 931 - which came later - Thank you Tone.



Terminus -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/13/2010 1:01:47 PM)

A little tip on the side. Ending your posts with "Thank you Tone" implies that you're thanking yourself; if you want to thank people for reading your post, you should write "Thank you, Tone".



spence -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/14/2010 12:09:31 AM)

Just like the SBD series the D3A Val did not have folding wings. Dive bombing required a very strong wing and putting a joint in the wing weakened it. Thus the Val required a larger elevator for its larger wingspan than the Kate for stowage/service in the hangar. The CVEs and even the CVLs couldn't accomodate the larger elevator (and hence the Val). However the low speed and relatively short flight deck of the CVEs combined with the small acceleration of the Kate prevented the Kate from taking off with the weight of an aerial torpedo and sufficient gasoline to get anywhere. So those carriers' planes carried bombs. WitP style Mini KBs made up of CVEs are an invention of the game mechanics; not an amazing stroke of unprecedented genius on the part of the players that puts to shame the real IJN participants.

The same combination of low carrier speeds, shorter flight decks, and the lousy aircraft acceleration of the Kate may have rendered some of the CVLs unsuitable for launching torpedo laden aircraft as well. Although Ryujo aircraft certainly sank ships in the DEI and the Indian Ocean I have not found any accounts that describe those planes sinking those ships with torpedos. Shoho never got a chance to launch anything to speak off in its brief career. Zuiho participated in 3 battles but got knocked out early at Santa Cruz, didn't have any airgroup at Leyte Gulf and (from what I've seen) launched bomb-armed Kates at Philippine Sea. I haven't seen any info on exactly what the airgroups of Chitose and Chiyoda carried at Philippine Sea but like Zuiho they carried next to nothing at all at Leyte Gulf. Even Junyo/Hiyo could only spot 6 Kates armed with torpedos for launch at any one time.



John 3rd -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/14/2010 12:12:16 AM)

Nice commentary Terminus.

Let me make sure I understand things with the CVEs:
1. Hosho carried 6 B4Y on Dec 7th.
2. We know that the CVEs split a Kate unit and carried roughly nine each in 1944.

To make things simple, I think I will delete that Kate Daitai and simply have each CVE come in with an organic Chutai of nine Kate whenever they enter the war. Does that sound somewhat reasonable? Hope to keep it simple...



CapAndGown -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/14/2010 12:32:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Nice commentary Terminus.

Let me make sure I understand things with the CVEs:
1. Hosho carried 6 B4Y on Dec 7th.
2. We know that the CVEs split a Kate unit and carried roughly nine each in 1944.

To make things simple, I think I will delete that Kate Daitai and simply have each CVE come in with an organic Chutai of nine Kate whenever they enter the war. Does that sound somewhat reasonable? Hope to keep it simple...



Why not do like the stock scenario does and have these planes arrive with a delay?



redcoat -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/14/2010 12:45:13 AM)


I vaguely remember seeing a Japanese language website which claimed that Shinyo had various aircraft: Vals, Kates, Comets and Zeros. I can't find the site now unfortunately. I do not remember how reliable its sources were.

Kaiyo is listed in Japanese Naval Vessels at the End of War (Shizuo Fukui) since she survived the war. The author says she carried 24 aircraft: 18 fighters and six bombers. It could be that she only had these aircraft in 1945 when she was operating as a training carrier. She may have had other aircraft when she was used in an escort role.

I've tried to find photos of Jap CVEs with aircraft on deck. Unfortunately I have only been able to find a couple so far.

Taiyo on 30th September, 1943.

[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taiy%C5%8D.jpg/800px-Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taiy%C5%8D.jpg[/image]

Chuyo in May 1943.

[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Ch%C5%ABy%C5%8D.jpg/800px-Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Ch%C5%ABy%C5%8D.jpg[/image]

I can't be sure about the aircraft types. Moreover, I haven't checked the TROMs for the two carriers and so I do not know whether the aircraft are being ferried or used operationally.








John 3rd -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/14/2010 2:49:17 AM)

Redcoat--Those are great pictures. If you find anything more, please post and let us know.



redcoat -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/14/2010 11:35:57 AM)


I’ve only been able to find one more CVE with aircraft on deck. It is Taiyo class though – Chuyo. I don't know the date. The photo looks like it may have been taken by an Allied plane during/after an air attack.

[image]http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1221/chuyo2.jpg[/image]


Other photos of CVEs without aircraft on deck.

Unyo in early May 1943

[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/IJN_CV_Unyo_in_1943.jpg[/image]

Kaiyo on 15th November, 1943

[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Kaiy%C5%8D.jpg/800px-Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Kaiy%C5%8D.jpg[/image]

Shinyo in November 1943

[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Aircraft_carrier_Shinyo.JPG[/image]



John 3rd -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/15/2010 2:41:57 AM)

Very NICE! I've seen a couple of them and haven't seen the others. A very nice contribution...



windlessmill7777 -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/15/2010 6:18:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat

I vaguely remember seeing a Japanese language website which claimed that Shinyo had various aircraft: Vals, Kates, Comets and Zeros. I can't find the site now unfortunately. I do not remember how reliable its sources were.


redcoat, I know some Japanese website described that Japanese CVE had Judy, Zero but also mentioned "transported to land base" not for carrier-ops.

quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat
Kaiyo is listed in Japanese Naval Vessels at the End of War (Shizuo Fukui) since she survived the war. The author says she carried 24 aircraft: 18 fighters and six bombers. It could be that she only had these aircraft in 1945 when she was operating as a training carrier. She may have had other aircraft when she was used in an escort role.


Nope. Kaiyo was used for "target ship of Kamikaze training" without any carrier aircraft. Not used for proper carrier-ops training.

quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat
[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Ch%C5%ABy%C5%8D.jpg/800px-Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Ch%C5%ABy%C5%8D.jpg[/image]

I can't be sure about the aircraft types. Moreover, I haven't checked the TROMs for the two carriers and so I do not know whether the aircraft are being ferried or used operationally.



Planes on Chuyo is J1N1-C Irving (recon type). this shot was taken at the port of Truk.



windlessmill7777 -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/15/2010 6:25:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat


I’ve only been able to find one more CVE with aircraft on deck. It is Taiyo class though – Chuyo. I don't know the date. The photo looks like it may have been taken by an Allied plane during/after an air attack.

[image]http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1221/chuyo2.jpg[/image]


This is famous mistaken. 'Till later 1990's, in Japan this ship was believed as "Sinking Chuyo after US sub attack".
One military analyst claimed this is not Chuyo because the ship has 12.7cm Single AA and Chuyo had never equipped 12.7cm Single AA but Dual AA.
He researched sources carefully and interviewed survived crew of Unyo, Taiyo and Chuyo. Then the fact is "This ship is Unyo that went stern at Yokosuka coast, around Feb. 4, 1944"

Unyo was attacked by USS Haddock at Saipan on Jan. 19, 1944 and dameged her bow. Crew had emergency-repair of bow and retreated to Yokosuka. But unfortunately, the sea got stormy, the waves took her bow right before she entered the port of Yokosuka.
The picture was taken by a recon plane of IJN 452 Ku from Tateyama.






John 3rd -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/15/2010 6:33:57 AM)

Thanks for the clarafication.

I just read in Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War (Rene Francillon) that Jills were carried by Shinyo, Taiyo, and Unyo. That was rather surprising...



redcoat -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/15/2010 1:17:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Windlessmill

quote:

ORIGINAL: redcoat
Kaiyo is listed in Japanese Naval Vessels at the End of War (Shizuo Fukui) since she survived the war. The author says she carried 24 aircraft: 18 fighters and six bombers. It could be that she only had these aircraft in 1945 when she was operating as a training carrier. She may have had other aircraft when she was used in an escort role.


Nope. Kaiyo was used for "target ship of Kamikaze training" without any carrier aircraft. Not used for proper carrier-ops training.



"In early 1945 she became training carrier in the Inland Sea, used for the training of flying off or landing and specially for the target of the kamikaze planes."

Japanese Naval Vessels at the End of War (Published April 1947)

Thanks for the clarification about the mislabelled 'Chuyo' photo. Unyo was also Taiyo class. Chuyo did indeed have slightly different AA armament from Taiyo and Unyo - from 1943.





redcoat -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/15/2010 2:24:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I just read in Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War (Rene Francillon) that Jills were carried by Shinyo, Taiyo, and Unyo. That was rather surprising...



On Page 460 of the same book it says that the Shinyo, Taiyo and Unyo were allocated some Yokosuka D4Ys.



John 3rd -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/15/2010 2:46:00 PM)

I'll take a look at that. Think there were simply no dedicated units to the CVEs because the Japanese 'vision' for their use kept evolving during the war.



windlessmill7777 -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/18/2010 3:27:36 PM)

Hi, all.
Here's super-detailed 1/700 scale Chuyo and original Nitta maru.

http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~d98/chuyo.html

This is awesome and breath-taking crafted model.
I cannot believe this is 1/700 even now...

Planes are Ki-48 Lily.
Actually, On December 12-18 1942, Chuyo ferried 22 Ki-48 which belongs to IJA 45th Sentai from Yokosuka to Truk.

Please visit the author's page and enjoy another great IJN vessels and planes!

http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~d98/index.html



Swayin -> RE: Japanese CVE Air Groups? (6/18/2010 10:48:21 PM)

wow, very nice models indeed!



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