RE: 24th June 1942 (Full Version)

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FatR -> RE: 24th June 1942 (12/10/2010 3:31:14 PM)

On the second thought, and after looking at the Allied side, it is probably still better for gameplay to put some of the battleships and Mini-KB carriers back at Home Islands at the beginning of the game. It is very hard for Allies to stop early Palembang gambit if the Japanese player is serious about this, but with Mini-KB closing the sealanes on second-third day, they won't even really get to try.



vettim89 -> RE: 24th June 1942 (12/11/2010 12:39:10 AM)

I wanted to chime in here and commend both players. I also wanted to add a note to support Yubari's decision to surrender. This mod is an AFB worse night mare from the get go. So to lose such an overwhelming battle at this point in the war is a far greater defeat than a similar result in Scenario 1 or even 2.

I hate to put words into John 3's mouth but I think the desired goal of the mod was to make the fun part of the game last longer. Giving the Japanese some advantages early in the war and especially mid war should change the nature of the game.

My only criticism for Yubari may be that your thinking was constructed around Scenario 1 OOB and force limitations. I understand the desire to do something but I have to wonder if you acted too soon and too boldly. This type of operation would have been a good idea in a non-Enhanced Japan scenario but probably was out of place here.

If I were to ever do a scenario, my goal would also be to extend the fun part of the game but I think I would focus more on reducing Allied capabilities rather than enhancing Japan's. Still I do like the idea of a game where late 1943 and early 1944 plays more like late 1942 and early 1943 does in most Scenario 1 games



bigred -> RE: 26th June 1942 (12/11/2010 3:49:46 AM)

One turn into Yubari's game.

1. 2/3rds of fleet Air wing landed at Columbo.
2. Columbo safe from invasion.
3. Andaman islands are in a strong position.
4. India should still be safe from any amphibious attack.
5. No rules game will allow Kwangtung arm to go on the move--probably burma.
6. Sopac has been neglected, but in a good position for advance under allied LBA.
7. High probablility of Pearl attack increases w/ the Bay of Bengal loss.
8. No rules game puts DEI and India (from a Burma attack) at risk early.
9. FatR has withdrawn the KB. Before this turn he offered a 10 day cease fire. I refused.

From a pure gaming view I wanted to see what I could do w/ a difficult situation going into 45.



John 3rd -> RE: 24th June 1942 (12/11/2010 4:34:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I wanted to chime in here and commend both players. I also wanted to add a note to support Yubari's decision to surrender. This mod is an AFB worse night mare from the get go. So to lose such an overwhelming battle at this point in the war is a far greater defeat than a similar result in Scenario 1 or even 2.

I hate to put words into John 3's mouth but I think the desired goal of the mod was to make the fun part of the game last longer. Giving the Japanese some advantages early in the war and especially mid war should change the nature of the game.

My only criticism for Yubari may be that your thinking was constructed around Scenario 1 OOB and force limitations. I understand the desire to do something but I have to wonder if you acted too soon and too boldly. This type of operation would have been a good idea in a non-Enhanced Japan scenario but probably was out of place here.

If I were to ever do a scenario, my goal would also be to extend the fun part of the game but I think I would focus more on reducing Allied capabilities rather than enhancing Japan's. Still I do like the idea of a game where late 1943 and early 1944 plays more like late 1942 and early 1943 does in most Scenario 1 games


That is well said Vettim.



vicberg -> RE: 24th June 1942 (12/11/2010 5:47:07 AM)

I started scen 70 with another and unfortunately, we both had to stop.  I can say that scen 70 is not more powerful for the japs than scen 2.  The initial force dispositions in scen 70 are smart and not overwhelming. 

I'm in a scen 1 (da big babes, so scen 1 - minus) and a scen 2.  Scen 2 bumps more things than I believe people realize.  In scen 2, there's a number of classes of jap DDs that start at asw level 4.  In scen 1, these start at ASW 2 or 0!  In other words, they pretty much doubled japanese ASW capabilitites early war.   

In addition, with scen 2, there's a bunch more troops, garrisons for china, higher qualitiy leaders (land, air and sea), higher quality troops, and of course higher quality pilots.  The pilots are the biggest difference.  In my scen 2 PBEM, I didn't feel like wasting tracom quality pilots on inexperienced allies.  I have 400+ pilots now in tracom and growing.  My base for replacements is 42 for navy and 34 for army.  In my da big babes, it's 30 and 20 and I have maybe 10 tracom pilots right now.  In my scen 2, there's another 300 70 exp quality pilots, and growing.  I'm not bothering to pull out the 60s or 50s yet.  Why waste time...plenty of reserves. 

And let's not forget the economy.  Scen 2 doesn't even think about checking resources, etc, for at least a few months.  There's about double of everything.  In my scen 1 (da babes), I'm chewing my nails every turn already.

IMO, there's not comparison.  Scen 2 is the japanese dream.  Scen 70 gives some more air and carrier capabilitites, which is nice mid to late game, but the george or nick can make up for zero limitations at that time.  Extending fun is scen 2 for the japs. 



yubari -> RE: 24th June 1942 (12/11/2010 11:01:38 AM)

To try to answer the questions.

John 3.
1. That is probably a good thing.

2. I might be tempted to either move one or two of the small carriers back to Nagasaki, or as an alternative leave one or two of them with Claudes instead of Zeroes. With that arrangement the Japanese would probably still be able to force an early Mersing, and maybe even an ultra-early Palembang but it would make it a much more risky affair. Starting all of the battleships at the front is very interesting.

3. No real difference noticed.

4. I was playing with the earliest version which didn`t have those convoys. If those units existed then I would probably put all of the troops a long way backwards, probably on Pago Pago, Port Moresby is a death trap even in scenario 1. The theoretical Lexington TF could get up to mischief in the DEI if used well, possibly threatening a reduced mini KB.

5. [X(] I guess that that wasn`t in the version I was using, doing that would be a no-brainer. If that is to be an option then it should be restricted to a maximum of 1 or 2 CVEs.

I agree with you Vettim, this is a great mod and giving the Japanese at least equality into late 1943 is a great challenge.

Well, FatR has sent me the Japanese password so I shall finally be able to see what is going on in the Japanese side. Bigred is welcome to take over the AAR if he wants.



John 3rd -> RE: 24th June 1942 (12/11/2010 10:25:35 PM)

Thanks for the comments guys. Anything else you can come up with would be great.

It is ALLLLL about feedback.



FatR -> RE: 24th June 1942 (12/11/2010 11:40:32 PM)

As the game is starting to continue I'm withdrawing from this AAR. Even resisted the temptation of reading it carefully to check real Allied losses earlier in the war[:)].

Before I do, though, I want to say to Bigred, that he really should take note of what my previous esteemed opponent did related to air war and ASW war/convoy routing. These are areas, where Japanese force got outmaneuvered most often so far (in fact, the air war in this game was the hardest and most frustrating for Japanese I've experienced).
Also (I spotted your notes while scrolling down), remember, that Kwantung Army cannot get to Burma without opening a land road through China. I can move them across the borders now, but I still must unrestrict any units I want to load on ships.

I also want to note that I bear no ill will against Yubari for his decision to quit. The game, above all, should not be a chore.



BBfanboy -> RE: Yubari's decision (12/16/2010 6:11:17 AM)

Just wanted to thank Yubari for an excellent scenario that had me wondering which way the knife would fall. [X(]
I think you had a large dose of bad luck at the end and should not feel all of it was due to your error in judgement.

I cannot disagree with your decision not to continue - it would be a long hard grind before you could feel the rush of being in control again and if you do not have the time and stubborness to play the game into 1946 then withdrawing is the correct decision for you.

I hope you will post another AAR in the near future so we can see what new strategies you come up with! Thanks again![sm=sign0031.gif]



bigred -> RE: June42 air losses (12/19/2010 2:09:33 PM)

Stats from the game. Not to sure it is appropriate to take over someone's AAR. Seems half of IJ air losses is from ops. My other game experience indicates jap pilot loss runs about 1/3 of total frame losses.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/B047E818A41444598BDEE295B692319F.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: 24th June 1942 (12/20/2010 4:19:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I wanted to chime in here and commend both players. I also wanted to add a note to support Yubari's decision to surrender. This mod is an AFB worse night mare from the get go. So to lose such an overwhelming battle at this point in the war is a far greater defeat than a similar result in Scenario 1 or even 2.

I hate to put words into John 3's mouth but I think the desired goal of the mod was to make the fun part of the game last longer. Giving the Japanese some advantages early in the war and especially mid war should change the nature of the game.

My only criticism for Yubari may be that your thinking was constructed around Scenario 1 OOB and force limitations. I understand the desire to do something but I have to wonder if you acted too soon and too boldly. This type of operation would have been a good idea in a non-Enhanced Japan scenario but probably was out of place here.

If I were to ever do a scenario, my goal would also be to extend the fun part of the game but I think I would focus more on reducing Allied capabilities rather than enhancing Japan's. Still I do like the idea of a game where late 1943 and early 1944 plays more like late 1942 and early 1943 does in most Scenario 1 games


That is well said Vettim.



The Andaman play by Yubari while the KB was invading Hawaii was brilliant. Yubari has shortened the war by 2 years. I came into the game w/ a "no rules" attitude. Maybe I need to continue on w/ the original HR set just to prove Yubari correct in his strategy.



bigred -> RE: 9th july 1942 (12/22/2010 6:20:23 PM)

FatR has moved mini KB into the slot between Andaman and Maya. He saw my small resupply ships visiting the islands. Seems jap LBA was unable to shut down my resupply effort so I expect Mini KB to be on station. Air attack on my resupply ship was delivered by Kaga-1. Ummm. Also hit an hdml which was acting as a picket ship. Mini KB is w/in 7 of allied LBA. No counter strike.

Note alot of jap transport activity which cannot occur w/out mini KB. I did expect FatR to split the KB after his epic victory in the Bay of Bengal.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/3B18EFC57C07463E98ABEBFAB0B74646.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: 15th july 1942 (12/27/2010 12:22:35 AM)

I counted 8 fighter sqn sweeps at Andaman islands this turn. 3 over trinket and 5 at Little Andaman. No cap at trinket but had 125 fighters at 30% Cap over Little Andaman. The first two sweep over little A started w/ a A6m2 x27 sqn and the Oscar 47 plane Sqn. But the a6m3b wore down my defense. then 2 more Oscar Sqns beat me down bad.

Set up for Cap Defense at Little A :
16 Hurr 2b at 36000ft
16 hurr 2v at 35600ft
24 P40e at 29000ft
24 p39 @ 29000ft
24 p39@ 10000ft.
All sqns assigned to same Hq w/in 3 hexes.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/DA486A40F96345F18F88E9A9ED4F3CE7.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: Bombs away, 17th july42. (12/28/2010 10:42:24 PM)

Intell picked up this info around the 14th. 177 ships in harbor at Lahaini. On the first turn of arrival(16th) at pearl the b17s did not fly after the 60 hex rebase from the west coast.
I was on pins and needles worried about the LBs sitting on the air field. A strange thing happen the next day. Recon noted all the TFs at Lahani had disappeared. But the port ship count increased to 199.
No sweeps, not bombing missions by the Japs at Pearl.

So I figured FatF had seen the increase of bombers on his mouse over and thought them to be SBDs....and had pulled all his fighters into Cap over lahaini, and his ships into safe port.

Halsey in command of Pac. Tinker in charge of the 7th AF. Planes are in the air...We await the reports of action....



[image]local://upfiles/27655/4D2EC26303BE4127920E2C5081D674E4.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: Bombs away, 17th july42. (12/28/2010 11:35:56 PM)

Combat report indicates 9 hits on the Fuso and Hyunga each with smaller amounts of damage to an AV and an AK. I hope FOG of war is on my side as I really needed to do a goodly amount of damage to a possible pearl invasion fleet. No Flak damage, how incredible. I have to decide if I should return next turn to Lahani for seconds before my surface fleet arrives.

Across the pacific at Port Blair, this is the 1st game I have ever seen 152 oscars show up for the same sweep. I must have been outnumbered 10 to 1. Shot down 9 oscars and lost some myself. But i am still flying and have plenty of replacement planes. Good thing i dont seem to be losing to many pilots..

And one of my pilots just got 15 kills...

[image]local://upfiles/27655/18BE80F2C9A0407EB17214F6889A1D48.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: Bombs away, 17th july42. (12/30/2010 3:24:47 PM)

quote:


FatR
By anemic Allied reaction and the garrizon full of fragments, I
recon you're not intending to seriously contest Trinkat... Well,
fine.


FatR does not know about the battalion of Grant tanks waiting for him. This should be interesting... Cuddos to yubari for the defensive set. I would suggest FatR train up his Guards regiment before he uses them in an amphibious assault.

quote:

Amphibious Assault at Trinkat

TF 46 troops unloading over beach at Trinkat, 44,64

Japanese ground losses:
2220 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 164 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 92 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 55 (1 destroyed, 54 disabled)
Vehicles lost 17 (0 destroyed, 17 disabled)



70mm T92 Howitzer lost overboard during unload of Guards Mixed Bde /1
17 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of Guards Mixed Bde
10 Support troops lost in surf during unload of Guards Mixed Bde /4
10 Support troops lost in surf during unload of 4th Bde /2
17 troops of a SNLF Squad accidentally lost during unload of 1st Sasebo SNLF Coy /2
8 Aviation Support troops lost from landing craft during unload of 91st JAAF AF Bn /2




[image]local://upfiles/27655/F5D34D4BFEE549E5AD5571C02B30FF19.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: Trinket, 20th july42. (12/30/2010 4:42:11 PM)

edit



bigred -> FatR tactical failure (12/30/2010 4:52:36 PM)

FatR has failed to stop the surface resupply of the Andamans. The reason is he has lost all his land based zero's. The 152 Oscar raid was a move to establish air superiority, which failed.
Now FatR has only 3 remaining options to regain Air/sea superiority:
1. Use permanant KB2 on station. Even this will fatigue the planes and air crews.
2. Take Trinket then base his a6m3b as a air superiority weapon. I am sure he can take Trinket if he really wants it. I see it as a large jap prison camp. I will bomb the hell out of Trinket for target practice.
3. Use IJN surface sweeps whch will become expensive.



bigred -> RE: FatR tactical failure (12/30/2010 4:59:11 PM)

Humm, wonder what happens when allied tanks attack disrupted japs on the beach?

[image]local://upfiles/27655/C69EC6A6D3F04B24B86828437A5F9BD9.jpg[/image]



Mike Solli -> RE: Bombs away, 17th july42. (12/30/2010 5:00:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bigred

I would suggest FatR train up his Guards regiment before he uses them in an amphibious assault.

quote:

Amphibious Assault at Trinkat

TF 46 troops unloading over beach at Trinkat, 44,64

Japanese ground losses:
2220 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 164 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 92 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 55 (1 destroyed, 54 disabled)
Vehicles lost 17 (0 destroyed, 17 disabled)



70mm T92 Howitzer lost overboard during unload of Guards Mixed Bde /1
17 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of Guards Mixed Bde
10 Support troops lost in surf during unload of Guards Mixed Bde /4
10 Support troops lost in surf during unload of 4th Bde /2
17 troops of a SNLF Squad accidentally lost during unload of 1st Sasebo SNLF Coy /2
8 Aviation Support troops lost from landing craft during unload of 91st JAAF AF Bn /2



That most likely happened because FatR landed them with little or no prep of the target.



bigred -> AAR style (12/30/2010 5:30:25 PM)

I sense I enjoy a different sort of AAR. I would like to invite my most respected opponent FatR to participate in this thread. I do not wish to present my future plans here(probably because I dont have any). But I will really enjoy talking about current or past victories(with alot of bombbast).

Also all readers be advised I will use psyops against FatR through this AAR to gain advantage in the field(as demonstrated w/ the above comments). I expect his and my comments to "stir a fire". I privately told him I call this "red meat for the spectators".

Readers feel free to copy any commentary to FatR Thread for historical[:D] purposes.


So let the headgames(AAR) begin.



bigred -> RE: AAR style (12/30/2010 10:14:31 PM)

At the request of FatR for several reasons we agreed I should start a new Thread for both of us to participate. This thread will remain an allied only thread.



bigred -> RE: 24july (1/6/2011 1:54:55 AM)

On 24 july42 the IJN withdrew from the Trinket Area.  In withdrawal the Atago was hit by a Torp.  I felt w/ the jap BBs on continued Bombbard commands I might be able to slip some Transports into PB, Lil andy and Car which did and has happened.  So the resupply effort is on the way.  Roughly 50000 tons..  I figure 3 days before I must withdraw these ships..Kb had an oportunity to engage these transporters but declined probably because they were w/in CAP of allied LBA.

W/ the arrival of the 1st US Army corp some west coast units (at the reduced PP price)(remember, no rules) are beginning to enter the game.

Cheap VP transport pickets are being placed at all uncovered PBY patrol areas. 

Yubari had invested 4 squadrons in low nav.  All these units are now in their 60exp range and ready for deployment.  I have read in the theads that these units will need a 70exp to do any thing....We will see if the IJN gets it's toe stumped at andamans...

i was one turn too late getting a surface combat BB TF into Lil andaman.  It took a final position at Lil andy hoping to catch a depleted Jap Bombardment TF, this may have caused the japs to pull back and reload...allowing me to really reload the islands w/ supply. 

I sense that FatR now has a healthy respect for allied fighter cap w/ the p38e present.  W/O the p38 at this recent Battle FatR really would have hurt the allied position.  Note the one Sqn of P38e was deployed into the most critical point of the grind.

All ftr sqns on andy and PB have one command-221HQ.  Each base has
2xhurr2b
1x p40e
1xp39
all set to range ? for mutual support. 

Bleinhams based in the andamans are on night bombing attacks at Sabang, VP, and Rangoon.  Seems to be working.

Reserve squadons (about 3x the amount at andamans) around India are training up as replacements for the future loses expected over Andamans.

17th indian division is flying in every turn to Trinket and I dont see a way for IJ to stop this unless he puts a KB2 next to Trinket, which is what i want . Then I know where he is plus if he makes a mistake he may lose a carrier to LBA.

There are ALOT of mines around trinket and the Andamans but I am not getting any reports of damage from these devices.




vicberg -> RE: 24july (1/8/2011 2:53:04 AM)

Max range without drop tanks....if that doesn't work, then multiple LRCAP for support (with no target unless you are a gambler) :)

If you know where he's going to hit, then gamble away and put either LRCAP or Cap against that spot. 



bigred -> RE: 31july (1/9/2011 4:14:07 PM)

This turn the intel reported 10 ship Surface TF at Trinket w/ a trans fleet 300 n miles se headed nw.
3 sbd sqns from india rebased to Car nicobar for a naval attack w/ p40 escort. 

Last turn at Trinket blendiems night bombed w/ followup daylight 100ft sweep by p39s.  Wierd result as the p39s shot down 8 oscars at 100 feet and lost only 2 planes...
quote:

Morning Air attack on Trinkat , at 44,64

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 5,100 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3b Zero x 3
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 30



Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 20


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 8 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
2 x P-39D Airacobra strafing at 100 feet *

CAP engaged:
Kagoshima-2 Ku S-1 with A6M3b Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
59th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 13 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 4000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-43-Ic Oscar (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 38500
Raid is overhead



bigred -> RE: 31july (1/9/2011 4:48:45 PM)

I figure it must be the gun value...plus the oscar had to come down from 38000 feet.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/67D96A08A4C74F82ABAFEF7F0A46750C.jpg[/image]



witpqs -> RE: 31july (1/9/2011 5:24:09 PM)

I figure the Oscar got to use the same maneuver-band that the P-39 got to use. More likely it was other differences that overcame the Oscar's advantage in Maneuverability: Gun, Durability, Armor, and Speed. A big difference in speed. Differences in pilots are unknown but could be significant.



bigred -> RE: 1 august... (1/10/2011 12:57:24 AM)

In the air over Trinket and Little andaman..

[image]local://upfiles/27655/26C5B23CB6FC4F368D23C4F7A658417A.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: 1 august... (1/10/2011 1:08:28 AM)

The first SBD attack at trinket cleared thru but failed to score any hits.  marine exp in the low 60s.



[image]local://upfiles/27655/325CCE5E34E4458A8136F97F81772178.jpg[/image]



bigred -> RE: 1 august... (1/10/2011 1:10:43 AM)

The a24 strike caught a mine layer at sea w/ no cap.

[image]local://upfiles/27655/04223D3B48B64717A7FF2016A0390CBF.jpg[/image]



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