New Weapons needed in DW (Full Version)

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Xkill -> New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 2:02:02 AM)

Everybody that plays space games see a variety of weapons, which some are missing in DW.

In my opinion a really epic space game need various weapons, like Phasers, Disruptors, Mass Drivers, not only Blasters and Torpedos, i would like to see missiles going to break the armor of a Capital Ship.

Beamers which i call "Ship Cutters" would be a great addition to DW, Missiles trepassing the shields of a Cruiser would be a outstanding scene to view too.

Anyways, making new weapons may be difficult, but they would enchance gameplay significantly.



Igard -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 2:28:33 AM)

I hear you. Beam weapons (like phasers) would be very cool in DW.

I don't think it would be difficult to develop the new weapons. Eliot added the planetary bombardment in just a short time before the game's release.

I think a big question is, would there be a new tech tree which 'branches' in different directions? You can choose the blaster route or the beam route, Mass Drivers or Disruptors? That kind of thing.



OberonDark -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 2:55:09 AM)

Please no GalCiv. If anything the weapons have different stats, no rock paper scissors crap.



thiosk -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 3:53:17 AM)

This is expansion territory.

The devs are focused on the game as it stands. They will determine where they want it to go. Every expansion to a game like this will include LOTs of weapons and missiles, don't worry! [:D]



Igard -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 4:23:37 AM)

Eric has said that the next patch after the current beta gets released will include more options for modders.[:)]

Of course this is expansion territory. Not the sort of thing we would expect to see in a patch.

I agree with OberonDark, no one wants to see that sort of stuff in DW. It would purely offer a different way of arming your ships. Beam weapons for example would have a slower firing rate, but do more damage. Mass drivers would have shorter range, but would be capable of destroying incoming torpedoes. It's all open to debate, but I think more options = better DW.



lordxorn -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 4:48:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OberonDark

Please no GalCiv. If anything the weapons have different stats, no rock paper scissors crap.


I agree and that is my major peeve with the whole GalCiv series. At least Moo2 mixed it up with imaginative weapons that were so GalCiv.



Xkill -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 5:38:15 AM)

quote:

Original:Igard

Eric has said that the next patch after the current beta gets released will include more options for modders.


I'm awaithing this patch ansiously, i really need to mod the governments [:D]

quote:

Original:Igard

I hear you. Beam weapons (like phasers) would be very cool in DW.

I don't think it would be difficult to develop the new weapons. Eliot added the planetary bombardment in just a short time before the game's release.

I think a big question is, would there be a new tech tree which 'branches' in different directions? You can choose the blaster route or the beam route, Mass Drivers or Disruptors? That kind of thing.


I'm not very sure, maybe it would take 3 or 5 days to code such a thing. Also a new tech tree would be awesome too that research screen look a little bit "Primitive" something modern like the Tech tree of GalCiv be best applied to this position, some players may not like it but in my opinion it looks more modern.

That way of "routes" aren't very atracting, cause it would limit the game in weapons than it is now, basically it would use the same system as it is now but only with diferent weapons. The perfect addition would put all the weapons that are in the game now and add others.

quote:

I agree with OberonDark, no one wants to see that sort of stuff in DW. It would purely offer a different way of arming your ships. Beam weapons for example would have a slower firing rate, but do more damage. Mass drivers would have shorter range, but would be capable of destroying incoming torpedoes. It's all open to debate, but I think more options = better DW.


Agreed.

But why Mass Drivers ALWAYS need to have short range? And Beamers need to have slow fire rate? Why not change this?

Also i think that Mass Drivers are best in destroying ships only cause torpedoes may be more difficult to target and hit.



thiosk -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 10:31:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Xkill


But why Mass Drivers ALWAYS need to have short range? And Beamers need to have slow fire rate? Why not change this?

Also i think that Mass Drivers are best in destroying ships only cause torpedoes may be more difficult to target and hit.


Mass drivers are kinetic weapons. You fire a lump of mass at high velocity. The trouble with mass drivers is effective aiming, because they travel at speeds far below the speed of light, as the target moves the dumb projectiles are no longer lined up. Because of the vastness of space, it takes little movement at range to allow the small projectile to miss completely. For moving targets, this is an enormous problem, and relegates mass drivers to short range weapons.

I see future wars being conducted entirely by mass drivers-- well, just dropping rocks on another country's moon base would cause some pretty serious problems. But stationary targets are easy to hit.



Canute0 -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 11:58:36 AM)

Any kind of Mass Driver, Phaser,Blaster or other sublight none guided weapons can be designed after the next patch. They allready said they made that mod-able.

But honestly thats just another name for the same thing, not a real new weapon (from the game design not from the physics).





Shark7 -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 3:40:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lordxorn


quote:

ORIGINAL: OberonDark

Please no GalCiv. If anything the weapons have different stats, no rock paper scissors crap.


I agree and that is my major peeve with the whole GalCiv series. At least Moo2 mixed it up with imaginative weapons that were so GalCiv.


Agreed as well, I hate rock, paper, scissors...having to redesign your ships depending on the flavor of the month enemy would royally suck.



Xkill -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 7:34:23 PM)

quote:

Please no GalCiv. If anything the weapons have different stats, no rock paper scissors crap.



Sure thing, Shields VS Beamers, Armor VS Mass Drivers, that sucks, the best is Armor VS All and Shields VS all.

Also if new races are made no GalCiv style, all races MUST be unpredictable not "Bad guys bad and good guys good".




Yarasala -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/25/2010 9:27:39 PM)

I agree in that I don't want "explicit" rock / paper / scissors like in GalCiv, but special weapons with special effects (like e. g. gyro destabilizers in MoO2) I would really like to see.



Icesavage -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/26/2010 1:02:39 AM)

Most games have some bonuses.   MoO2 had a number of them.  Phasors were the best weapon in MoO2 since you could upgrade them to autofire, phased (by pass shields) and armor piercing.   The Deathray did not actually get such options.  Now the balance in MoO2 was of course that it increased the weapon's size.  Adding all those things to a phasor increased the size of them some thing like 6 or 8 times i think, but the Master of Orion series had micronization build into the tech system so that as your tech got better older tech got smaller.

Anyway, I would like to see some of the special systems idea that MOO used. Stuff like High Energy Focus which increase weapon range, or Statis Field which placed a ship in statis for a round so it could not attack or be attacked.  Warp dissipators that reduced a ships ability to move.

Still what made MoO interesting too was that you could never get EVERY technology.  The randomness build into the tech tree made every game in terms of research also unique, there were enough items in the research tree though that one was never penalized too much for missing some research.  That way you didnt always build the same ship over and over again in every game.


Every game is different though, and not everything needs to be reused.



Xkill -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/26/2010 2:50:28 AM)

The only drawback that i've noted in MoO2 was the ship design, beign able of making ONLY 5 ships are really annoying, especially cause of the HUGE variety of weapons and modules available in the game.

That way of bonuses are preety cool too "Shield Piercing" Blasters, Beamers "Armor Piercing" Mass Drivers, Missiles, also Hard Points would be very cool in DW.



Shark7 -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/26/2010 7:14:06 AM)

Rather than go with a ton of 'special' properties for weapons, I favor more of a balanced but different approach.

Say we have 3 types of beam weapons:

-Standard beam laser: 5 Damage, 5 second recycle time (Fires once every five seconds), 9 space
-Disruptor: 10 damage, 8 second recycle time, 19 space
-Pulse Laser: 1 damage, 1 second recycle time, 2 space

In the end, no one laser type is better than any of the others, however one might benefit from having a mix of them. Each has a slight strength or weakness, but overall they get similar results.

You can put one standard laser for 5 damage in 5 seconds for 9 space....you get the same damage over time from 5 pulse lasers, but they take up additional space, or you can get a slower but very powerful weapon in the disruptor for slightly more space than the standard beam laser. The real decision comes in deciding which fits your needs better. The standard laser gives good damage with moderate recycle time and the most efficient use of space. The disruptor would give you more damage in shorter time, but does take up more space in the hull. The pulse laser is weak alone, but can be easily mounted in groups and the refire rate means you are essentially able to be in continuous fire mode.

It's give and take. Obviously, the disruptor would be the most powerful choice, but harder to fit multiple weapons. The standard laser is pretty much straight up the middle, and the pulse laser, while weaker than the other two in space/power efficiency has the advantage of being small enough to use as a filler weapon when you are limited on space but want to add a couple of more weapons. But the nice thing is, no rock, paper, scissors...each is viable in all situations.



EisenHammer -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/26/2010 4:13:47 PM)

I agree... no rock, paper, scissors.



martyran -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/28/2010 3:05:03 AM)

Space battles seem to mirror 1920's type battles
big ships with big guns blasting away at each other
the little ships trying to get in close to launch their torpedoes in

I hate games where you have to get a certain weapon to defeat the special shield or armour a certain race has developed
I have just got the game so I am not very knowledgeable about the nuts and bolts of the game yet 

i think the game would benefit from tech to increase damage or rate of fire  or amount damage 
or a ap type round that does less damage but some damage penetrates shields to but damage on ship

Maybe a culture based thing or a line of tech that directs you down a specific path and its hard to change to a different line of research









Gertjan -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/28/2010 7:41:29 AM)

I'm not such a huge fan of too many types of weapons. Keep it simple and stupid, the focus should be on the grand strategy.




Starfry -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/28/2010 10:36:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Rather than go with a ton of 'special' properties for weapons, I favor more of a balanced but different approach.

Say we have 3 types of beam weapons:

-Standard beam laser: 5 Damage, 5 second recycle time (Fires once every five seconds), 9 space
-Disruptor: 10 damage, 8 second recycle time, 19 space
-Pulse Laser: 1 damage, 1 second recycle time, 2 space

You can put one standard laser for 5 damage in 5 seconds for 9 space....you get the same damage over time from 5 pulse lasers, but they take up additional space, or you can get a slower but very powerful weapon in the disruptor for slightly more space than the standard beam laser. The real decision comes in deciding which fits your needs better. The standard laser gives good damage with moderate recycle time and the most efficient use of space. The disruptor would give you more damage in shorter time, but does take up more space in the hull. The pulse laser is weak alone, but can be easily mounted in groups and the refire rate means you are essentially able to be in continuous fire mode.


Uhm, you might want to add some damage over time calculations into your weapon equations. You will have to bump the pulse laser space up to 16 or higher to avoid rock, paper, scissor combat since you could take 19 spaces of that weapon and deal 152 damage in 8 seconds compare to 2 distrupters causing 20 damages.

Also, don't forget that this game factors ECM so to keep it balanced, that means either a more powerful dsirupter or a lower firerate for the pulse laser so that its main strength is more hits compared to the disrupter.



Igard -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/28/2010 1:29:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: martyran

Maybe a culture based thing or a line of tech that directs you down a specific path and its hard to change to a different line of research



That would be an absolute dream! A race specific tech tree that could be modded! That would certainly keep things simple if the player is not interesting in having too many weapons. It would also mean, I could mod a new race into the game and give them a unique tech tree all of their own.

I wonder how doable this is for the development team?...



Sinnari -> RE: New Weapons needed in DW (6/28/2010 2:44:40 PM)

Agreed. I think that tech trees depending on culture or race are closer to perfection than anything else i can think or remember of.. and relatively easy to implement.

One of possible original ways to implement this, is to put cultural and racial weights on technologies. So that technologies are not actually reserved for any particular race or culture or government type, but are more likely to be discovered by races with corresponding culture and preferencies... for example, traders would tend to discover better technologies in cargo storage, engines speed and so on.. war-oriented species would be better at weapons... some of them on beamery and some of them at rocketry.. depending also on their racial and cultural psycology.. However, I strongly encourage making every tech available to everyone but with certain valuable penalties and bonuses. So that even perfect pacifists could develop a planetkiller but pay much with money, time, resource, and colony separation...


Hmmm.. actually, there is a big field for research here.. But one thing is for sure.. you all are talking here about weapons balancing which is right, but do not forget about balancing with other things. Like, remember, StarCraft where all factors were mix-balanced - tech, firepower, toughness, swiftness, specials and so on.. everything was cross-balanced, not catagory-balanced. This is very important I think. Thank you.



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