Stupid fleets (rant) (Full Version)

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XoX -> Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 12:06:31 AM)

This game can really really annoy me sometimes.
I had my fleet all set to attack my enemy, I had a plan. Take their lightly defended outer world of their system to use as a base to wreck havoc on them whilst I build up to be able to attack their heavily defended home base.
What do my ships do? Of their own accord before I've even finished taking the undefended planet they run off to their deaths charging into the heavily defended one. I keep telling them 'no you morons, the other planet!' but still...they die.

Then later on, the aliens finally decide to say I've won and they're subjugated...but the battle that was going on keeps on happening..and they just declade war on me anyway and I look a bastard for it.
Bahhhh!!
Really, moments like these show it to be less of a game and more of just a little space sim in a box.



Igard -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 1:25:09 AM)

Your plan was almost certainly doomed to fail! I've tried this too, and it doesn't work. Trying to hold a planet in a heavily defended enemy sytem is a difficult balancing act. You need to fortify your position with a defensive base/space port and get enough ships, so that the ones that are drawn into fighting throughout the system are not your only defence.

It's so difficult to do this. I can only remember one occasion where I had a system with one planet occupied by me and another by the enemy. Both planets were small colonies. Getting a base built was tough but I got there in the end, the AI kept sending wave after wave of new ships against me and I had to respond in kind. It went on for years and was a really epic struggle (I think I lost it actually). It's a balance of power. If the enemy has a large planet to defend, they're gonna defend it with everything they can throw at you!

Basically, you have to fight for the system, not for the one planet. The best thing to do is build your forces either at a nearby colony of your own or at a staging area with a resupply ship. Attack the large planet first, and wipe out most of the defences in the system, then you should have the luxury of time to prepare to take on the smaller planet.



XoX -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 8:40:22 AM)

I had salvaged super advanced ships. They could take on anything the enemy would throw at me- though they lost most of their number going up against his huge space port and all those defence bases at his home world....

But anyway, thats neither here nor there there. All I wanted was to hurt one planet but the game wouldn't let me do that, it made my ships kill themselves attacking what I didn't want attacked.



Igard -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 2:23:49 PM)

Are you running the v1.0.5.6 beta patch? It has a new option for auto-engagement. You can set your ships to engage nearby targets, system targets or only when attacked. Use the comma key to cycle.

I hope this helps. I totally agree with you wanting to take a single planet and hold it. If that's your style of play then you should be able to do it.[:)]



Fishers of Men -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 2:50:32 PM)

This is all very familiar to me, as well. I conquer a planet in the enemy system then wait to regroup and rebuild my forces for the assault on the home planet. I find my ships disobey orders and individually take off on the own to attack their heavy defenses. A suicide mission!! I get very angry at this. So, version 1.0.5.6 should fix this? I hope so.

FoM



jpowell -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 6:08:33 PM)

I've been watching these forums for some time waiting to see if DW was a game I wanted to buy.  Several times I reached for my credit card only to read some post and put the card back in my wallet.  This was one such post.

The "stupid fleet" problem brings back bad memories of MOO3: planetary governors were supposed to make sound decisions regarding production, ship design, research, and military operations.  Inevitably, the governors would produce massive quantities of useless ships (transports with no troops to transport), make ruinous economic decisions, and fail to respond to attacks.  The game that was supposed to learn from your input and operate autonomously required constant micromanagement to avoid calamities and rectify stupid mistakes.  Very frustrating, and frustration is not entertainment.

I'll keep watching to see if things improve with DW; they never did with MOO3. 



taltamir -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 7:24:21 PM)

1.0.5.6 introduced stances (Which affect the range at which the ship will engage), so you can now limit them and prevent them from flying off. As well as other improvements.

Although this was never a problem for me anyways. I really don't understand all those problems people are having.

quote:

The "stupid fleet" problem brings back bad memories of MOO3: planetary governors were supposed to make sound decisions regarding production, ship design, research, and military operations. Inevitably, the governors would produce massive quantities of useless ships (transports with no troops to transport), make ruinous economic decisions, and fail to respond to attacks. The game that was supposed to learn from your input and operate autonomously required constant micromanagement to avoid calamities and rectify stupid mistakes. Very frustrating, and frustration is not entertainment.

I'll keep watching to see if things improve with DW; they never did with MOO3.

The game is not comparable to moo3. Moo3 was a turd, this game is awesome. Don't let some nay sayers and doom callers dissuade you. Its really not as bad as they make it sound.
That being said, the game was released a bit early, and it is understandable that you would wait for the fixes to come out. Its already more polished then many games, but there is still room for a bit more polish in 1.0.5.6



XoX -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 8:27:40 PM)

DW is certainly better than MOO3. Its a lovely piece of software. It really feels like space empires battling it out in my computer. The scale is believably huge.

But.
Is it a game?

The automation is just...you can sit back and do nothing and it will play the game for you. This is good at times. It takes away the boring fiddly bits you don't want to do. But when you've no choice on automation- arghh!

I'm not in the beta patch, I'm on the last official one (.4 iirc?), but this improvment in the beta sounds...iffy too. So I can stop my fleet rushing to their death against the enemy homeworld. Thats nice. But due to the grand alteration my home system defence ships will then sit idly by whilst the enemy picks off my outer worlds.....
Hmm... I am tempted to try it out but then I'd have to betray my principles and actually register a game for once....I'll see. Right now I'm just turned right off the game again- think I'll leave it another few patchs before I try it out again.

All I'd like is a big button to lock certain ships. Completely turn off automation only on this ship/fleet. A big fat "Do what I say!" button. A little automation- fine. You shouuldn't have to click every individual enemy to target actually within a fight. When attacked they should fight back. But full scale going off to kill themselves?



taltamir -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 9:30:23 PM)

quote:

I'm not in the beta patch, I'm on the last official one (.4 iirc?), but this improvment in the beta sounds...iffy too. So I can stop my fleet rushing to their death against the enemy homeworld. Thats nice. But due to the grand alteration my home system defence ships will then sit idly by whilst the enemy picks off my outer worlds.....

That is not how it works at all.
You can select it at the individual ship level, the fleet level, or empire level. So obviously you set that specific fleet to do that. there are also other improvements and basically they are not nearly as dumb as you propose.

quote:

Is it a game?

Yes, it is a game... the automation amounts to very little, merely assisting you. My skill and direct control makes a world of difference.

quote:

All I'd like is a big button to lock certain ships. Completely turn off automation only on this ship/fleet. A big fat "Do what I say!" button. A little automation- fine. You shouuldn't have to click every individual enemy to target actually within a fight. When attacked they should fight back. But full scale going off to kill themselves?

and with 1.05 you have it. simply set them to have a small guard radius. you don't have to click every individual ship and you don't have them flying off.

You are also trying to have it both ways... you don't want to have to click every single enemy ship to kill it, but you want it to do absolutely nothing without explicit orders from you ("a big fat do what I say button")... really you are just being all over the place and talking nonsense about stuff you don't even know. You say the 1.05.6 patch sounds "iffy" yet refuse to even try it... until you try it, there is nothing more for us to say to each other.



Tophat1815 -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (6/28/2010 10:21:22 PM)

Wow.....Bravo indeed taltamir said it eloquently.



runemalv -> RE: Stupid fleets (rant) (7/27/2010 2:02:11 AM)

Usually I dont even bother to comment games, as it usually ends in a fanboy argument. As in bases vs no bases in DOWII.

But in this case, I have to totally agree with XoX. I have never played a game where the fleets stops between systems because a peace agreement has been activated (without asking or telling me), where you 10 times agrees on a popup that 8th fleet can attack a planet and nothing happens (except an 11th popup with the same question), where 80% of the ships in a fleet decides to refuel in the middle of an attack and many, many more "strange" situations. Its so bad thats its actually funny. But after a while you get bored.

When it comes to individually ships "bugs", the list becomes even longer. Refueling and repairing a planet destroyer? No problem. If you want it rebuilt to a capital ship..... Do you only have three of five troops aboard? No problem. But when you try to land them as support on one of your planets, the ships loads the fighting troops FROM the planet and leave the planet open to the invading force. When you finally get the ship to return, the planet is lost and defended with your own defensive bases.

And the gameplay.... When your in the middle of an epic fight and manually controlling 20 fleets, its always funny to get disturbed every 5 seconds with a diplomatic request, a warning about a giant kaltor or some other useless information. While usefull information, like that your other planet killer has left the main fleets and is beeing shoot to h___ and back.... Well, you soon discover that when you cannot find the planet killer in the ships list.

In about 10 hours of playing and the latest official patch, I guess I have noticed about 10-20 different bugs and minor logical errors. And 4-5 situation relatet ones who killed the game. But it was good entertainment. Loved the background lore and exploration. So this game (as almost every Matrix game) has a good story and a superb plot. It just need 10-20 patches. So maybe I will revisit it in a year or two. Because life is to short to begin beta patching, moding and using workaround to get a game to work. Its only a game! Not something critical.



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