RE: Variety in Toaw (Full Version)

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shunwick -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/6/2010 3:53:54 PM)

Guys,

Regarding those house rules, I am not suggesting that they are a solution to anything.  I am merely saying try them and observe the results.

Best wishes,
Steve



PFrancis -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/9/2010 2:51:40 AM)

Since nobody risked stating what are the intellectual challenges present in a Toaw game, from the point of view of experienced players, perhaps I can, at least, have some descriptions of different strategical approaches some players have used in different scenarios, just to know how the game dynamics can change according to scenario setups.

I want to know how the reality of different conflicts can lead to different gameplay. Obviously scale and balance between forces will have a great influence, but is it all? Will events, communication lines, terrain, weather, supply points, equipment type etc have a big influence on the way the game is played or will those variables only affect balance indirectly, preserving the player his dynamics of play whatever scenario he is playing?

I'm not sure if I could be clear, but...



Panama -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/9/2010 3:41:08 AM)

I have a suggestion. Why don't you play the game?



PFrancis -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/9/2010 3:58:54 AM)

I play the game but, sadly, I don't have enough time to play it frequently. I tried some small scenarios, but really can't say I comprehend what I was doing (before someone asks... yes, I read the manual). I have other games to choose from and, not having enough time to play more than one of them, I ask for help in forums trying to figure out what I will experience after investing my time on a game... to know if it fits my taste. Is it something so offensive? Most people in most forums like to share their experience, describe their tactical and strategical successes or failures. Is it so different here?

I would like to ask for excuse if my tone was offensive in some way. English is not my native language.



Panama -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/9/2010 11:47:41 AM)

It's not offensive but you can only discover so much asking someone what something is like. You will never know for certain unless you experience it yourself. Play another person.

What is Antarctica like?
It's very cold.
How cold?
Very very cold.

That in no way tells you how cold it really gets. Believe me. It is COLD! But you'll never really know unless you go there.



shunwick -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/9/2010 3:59:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu

quote:


Try the following house rules:

1. You may not move any ground unit under its own traction for further than you have supply.
2. You may not attack or limited attack with gound units that are Cherry Red.
3. Artillery (and this includes exotic artillery - aircraft) may not be placed in any of the support deployments if Cherry Red.


I've considered this, but it is has a few weak spots. If my artillery unit moves 100 hexes it is at 1% supply. According to this house rule it cannot then fire. But by marching 100 hexes why can't I fire my artillery? I haven't used any ammunition in marching, in fact I've got a full load, I should be able to attack like nobodies business. Like wise if I fire my artillery until it is out of shells why then can't it move or move as fast as before?

Its kind of funny in the game. An artillery unit with a full load of shells represented by 100% supply can move at maximum speed. But after I fire all the shells then it moves much slower, you would think the opposite eh?



Sorry Fungwu, I missed this post.

You lose 1% supply for every movement point expended. This is the basic fuel cost. Since movement equals time, it also includes food but the main component is fuel.

You lose 10% supplies for every combat round your unit spends in battle. This is the basic ammunition cost.

If you have a unit with 100 supply points and 100 movement points and you choose to move the unit its full movement allowance then it follows, from the above, that the unit’s carry capacity of 100 supply points must be comprised entirely of fuel. You have allowed no capacity for ammunition.

When your troops get to X they are knackered, out of fuel, and they have no ammunition since they didn’t carry any. The 1% supply they do have is made up of a few clips of rifle ammo, enough petrol for the portable generator, plus a few chickens and a goat that Corporal Smith liberated from the inhabitants of X and the surrounding area.

According to rule #2 they are not allowed to launch an attack and that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Your second point about an artillery unit with a full load of shells represented by 100% supply is the same kind of stuff. Not all of that supply is ammunition and TOAW leaves it up to you to decide how much is fuel and how much is ammo. And I freely admit that it is confusing and would be better if beans, bullets, and gas were in seperate streams.

Best wishes,
Steve



PFrancis -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/9/2010 4:15:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panama

It's not offensive but you can only discover so much asking someone what something is like. You will never know for certain unless you experience it yourself. Play another person.

What is Antarctica like?
It's very cold.
How cold?
Very very cold.

That in no way tells you how cold it really gets. Believe me. It is COLD! But you'll never really know unless you go there.


More precisely:

What is Antarctica like?
It's very cold.
How cold?
Very very cold.

What do I need to to bring to deal with this cold weather?
I'm not willing to tell. Go there and find by yourself!

In fact I was able to find much more about other games... just by asking. If I had the time, I would play all of them, believe me. I have half a dozen of closed game boxes from ten years ago.




madner -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/9/2010 7:21:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PFrancis

Since nobody risked stating what are the intellectual challenges present in a Toaw game, from the point of view of experienced players, perhaps I can, at least, have some descriptions of different strategical approaches some players have used in different scenarios, just to know how the game dynamics can change according to scenario setups.

I want to know how the reality of different conflicts can lead to different gameplay. Obviously scale and balance between forces will have a great influence, but is it all? Will events, communication lines, terrain, weather, supply points, equipment type etc have a big influence on the way the game is played or will those variables only affect balance indirectly, preserving the player his dynamics of play whatever scenario he is playing?

I'm not sure if I could be clear, but...


I only play Fite (and the mods), so nothing of it might be valid for the smaller scenarios. Anyway, as I mostly play ze Germans, the idea is to advance as fast as possible, destroying the Red army, while preserving the own forces. One is playing versus the clock, as unless the Wehrmacht manages to at least reach the historical lines, the situation will be grim (and the game likely lost).
Communications lines are the principal battlefields of the early turns, and the first hard decisions as well. There is a finite capacity to repair rail tracks, but to sustain the speed of the advance the mass of the units needs to be very close to the tracks. The Sovjet player knows that as well, so the question is where to advance, where to feint (to draw the Sovjet reinforcements away from the main route), where to fight, where to flank and surround the units.
The strategic choices can be corrected latter to a degree, but one has to decide pretty quickly which cities to take in hope of achieving parity.

Terrain plays a key role, as swamps, major rivers and woods need to be accounted for. Of course this also provides an opportunity, as those sectors can become avenues for advances, if a degree of surprise can be achieved.

Equipment plays a major role as well. Some German panzer divisions have close to useless tanks, while others have pretty decent ones. The Sovjet tank units can be either totally overmatching them (if they have KV-1 and T-34 in numbers) or be at a disadvantage, as they have lighter tanks.
This is only covering the opening moves.



PFrancis -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/10/2010 12:18:28 AM)

Thanks madner. That's exactly the kind of example I need. I have read Fite AARs and sometimes the statement of players saying that he must advance quickly and that's it, lead us to the conclusion that one must only find the fastest way for each unit and avoid making a major mistake in unit distribution along the front and then just push where you have superiority using some combined arms where possible. You put it in a way that makes me imagine that there's much more to a fast advance than that.
Any further example would be welcome.



shunwick -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/10/2010 11:58:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PFrancis

Thanks madner. That's exactly the kind of example I need. I have read Fite AARs and sometimes the statement of players saying that he must advance quickly and that's it, lead us to the conclusion that one must only find the fastest way for each unit and avoid making a major mistake in unit distribution along the front and then just push where you have superiority using some combined arms where possible. You put it in a way that makes me imagine that there's much more to a fast advance than that.
Any further example would be welcome.


PFrancis,

Every scenario is different. The American strategy in Vietnam in 1966 is completely different from the Axis strategy in the Soviet Union in 1942. WWI scenarios require different strategies to WWII strategies and to Cold War strategies.

There is one thing I would say. TOAW rewards people prepared to work at it and the more you put in, the more you get out.

It is possible to play TOAW almost superficially and players who do so are usually left wondering if terrain, supply, weather, and all the other stuff actually has that much of an effect.

But If you are prepared to put in the effort, to see past the hex grid to the terrain you troops are fighting in and to see past the counters to the troops who are cold, hungry, hurting, struggling, living and dying, then TOAW comes alive.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Steve



secadegas -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/10/2010 12:55:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: shunwick

It is possible to play TOAW almost superficially and players who do so are usually left wondering if terrain, supply, weather, and all the other stuff actually has that much of an effect.

But If you are prepared to put in the effort, to see past the hex grid to the terrain you troops are fighting in and to see past the counters to the troops who are cold, hungry, hurting, struggling, living and dying, then TOAW comes alive.



[&o]



PFrancis -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/10/2010 10:34:41 PM)


quote:

It is possible to play TOAW almost superficially and players who do so are usually left wondering if terrain, supply, weather, and all the other stuff actually has that much of an effect.


I think I'm at this point still. So, I tried to find my answer reading some AARs, but those tend to be very synthetic and descriptions tend to focus on attack axis and divisions involved, quoting battle results and cities captured, but we don't see a lot of considerations about terrain, equipment type, supply routes, communication lines, etc.
There are some (one or two, in fact) detailed AARs I could find, but they deal mostly with engine characteristics, like turn burn, how to avoid loosing too many rounds on a battle, etc.
Your description helps a lot, making me believe there is much more under the simplistic appearance of just pushing the counters in the right places. Thanks very much.



Karri -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/11/2010 12:02:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PFrancis


quote:

It is possible to play TOAW almost superficially and players who do so are usually left wondering if terrain, supply, weather, and all the other stuff actually has that much of an effect.


I think I'm at this point still. So, I tried to find my answer reading some AARs, but those tend to be very synthetic and descriptions tend to focus on attack axis and divisions involved, quoting battle results and cities captured, but we don't see a lot of considerations about terrain, equipment type, supply routes, communication lines, etc.
There are some (one or two, in fact) detailed AARs I could find, but they deal mostly with engine characteristics, like turn burn, how to avoid loosing too many rounds on a battle, etc.
Your description helps a lot, making me believe there is much more under the simplistic appearance of just pushing the counters in the right places. Thanks very much.


Some of us have been playing for years(decades?), I don't really pay any attention to the details because I know them by heart by now...probaply why the AARs don't tell that much.



shunwick -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/13/2010 3:44:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri


quote:

ORIGINAL: PFrancis


quote:

It is possible to play TOAW almost superficially and players who do so are usually left wondering if terrain, supply, weather, and all the other stuff actually has that much of an effect.


I think I'm at this point still. So, I tried to find my answer reading some AARs, but those tend to be very synthetic and descriptions tend to focus on attack axis and divisions involved, quoting battle results and cities captured, but we don't see a lot of considerations about terrain, equipment type, supply routes, communication lines, etc.
There are some (one or two, in fact) detailed AARs I could find, but they deal mostly with engine characteristics, like turn burn, how to avoid loosing too many rounds on a battle, etc.
Your description helps a lot, making me believe there is much more under the simplistic appearance of just pushing the counters in the right places. Thanks very much.


Some of us have been playing for years(decades?), I don't really pay any attention to the details because I know them by heart by now...probaply why the AARs don't tell that much.


Karri,

And there is only so much you can put into an AAR. People doing AARs tend to concentrate on the concrete aspects of the campaign.

Best wishes,
Steve



PFrancis -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/14/2010 4:25:00 PM)

There is still one concern I have. I've noticed that Fire in the East seems to be the most played scenario, really dominating the Toaw scene. I began to ask myself about the possibility of Toaw surviving the emergence of games like Gary Grigsby War in the East. I know it won't have the flexibility of Toaw, which covers dozens of different conflicts. This flexibility is what I like the most about the game, but will I be able to find opponents for scenarios which don't portray the eastern front or WWII in general?
I would like to hear your oppinion about the future of Toaw when facing a game which covers the preferred theatre for Toaw players in a more detailed way.



Karri -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/14/2010 5:26:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PFrancis

There is still one concern I have. I've noticed that Fire in the East seems to be the most played scenario, really dominating the Toaw scene. I began to ask myself about the possibility of Toaw surviving the emergence of games like Gary Grigsby War in the East. I know it won't have the flexibility of Toaw, which covers dozens of different conflicts. This flexibility is what I like the most about the game, but will I be able to find opponents for scenarios which don't portray the eastern front or WWII in general?
I would like to hear your oppinion about the future of Toaw when facing a game which covers the preferred theatre for Toaw players in a more detailed way.


FitE dominates the AARs, plenty of people who play other scenarios.


Well, dunno about plenty, no idea how many people still play this game.



berto -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/14/2010 8:15:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

quote:

ORIGINAL: PFrancis

There is still one concern I have. I've noticed that Fire in the East seems to be the most played scenario, really dominating the Toaw scene. I began to ask myself about the possibility of Toaw surviving the emergence of games like Gary Grigsby War in the East...

I would like to hear your oppinion about the future of Toaw when facing a game which covers the preferred theatre for Toaw players in a more detailed way.


FitE dominates the AARs, plenty of people who play other scenarios.

Well, dunno about plenty, no idea how many people still play this game.


I have zilch interest in FitE, GGWitE, or anything else having to do with the East Front. But I retain a keen interest in TOAW.

I'll keep TOAW on my hard drive if only to play the VCO (Vietnam Combat Operations) series. But there's so much else besides.

"Plenty of people"? Well, there's one other at least. [;)]



Ibilja -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/14/2010 8:32:03 PM)

Make that two others at least.[;)] However, I am somewhat of an odd in the way TOAW interest me. I am not really interested in PBEM so I am not of any help there. I am interested in military history. I read, watch documentaries etc. When I read something on a battle - I will often use TOAW to try variants of the battle so perhaps I will play the same scenario half a dozen times to see how changing something will change things from the perspective of the historical result. So, it is kind of an extension of the learning process. I am glad that the game system is still 'alive' and being worked on. However, I readily admit if it relied on people like me it probably would not be very lucrative to Matrix.



Veers -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/23/2010 3:37:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PFrancis

There is still one concern I have. I've noticed that Fire in the East seems to be the most played scenario, really dominating the Toaw scene. I began to ask myself about the possibility of Toaw surviving the emergence of games like Gary Grigsby War in the East. I know it won't have the flexibility of Toaw, which covers dozens of different conflicts. This flexibility is what I like the most about the game, but will I be able to find opponents for scenarios which don't portray the eastern front or WWII in general?
I would like to hear your oppinion about the future of Toaw when facing a game which covers the preferred theatre for Toaw players in a more detailed way.


FitE dominates these forums (which, admittedly, are more active than GameSquad forums), but over at GameSquad, you'll see a good variety of diff scenario AARs and lots of diff scenarios being played.



SMK-at-work -> RE: Variety in Toaw (7/26/2010 3:37:32 AM)

I've go a game of Trotsky's war going against the AI...according to he game saves I've been "playing" it since at least March 2008 - that was turn 25...I'm up to T 33 ATM...:)

I tend to play a turn or 2 when I'm stuck at home with a cold....



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