Brits and AT fire (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns



Message


Gaius Marius -> Brits and AT fire (8/2/2002 4:01:01 PM)

Being a fan of the Long WWII Campaigns, I want to give the Brits (another) try. I have played most of the war as Germany, and good parts of it as the US Army and Russkies.

The first time I played, however, was as the Brits. It was a blast, until I got into the desert and had nothing to penetrate a PzIII or IV effectively.

Since then, my AT capabilities have gotten better as I have, at least to some degree, learned to use infantry effectively vs armor.

However, looking at the availability of AT weapons in the encyclopedia, it still looks like I would have nothing better than a 2lb QQF Late (70 max pen, I think) until sometime in early to mid 1942. The exception is the 3inch AA gun, which has something like 105 pen, max. That doesn't seem TOO great, and I am wondering if it is wildly ahistorical to use the gun like I would an 88 - or even if it would work that way, given its ammo loadout and reduced penetration.

Add to this that there is no flame armor available and that any AT inf would have to work in the open desert, and I am largely at a loss as to how to break the large panzer forces the AI loves throwing at me reliably.

Has anyone played the British in the desert in a campaign and found a solution I ai'nt seein'? Maybe someone that has played the Desert Fox Mega Campaign?

Thanks in advance...




Jim1954 -> (8/2/2002 8:51:08 PM)

No easy solutions, good thing they have that "stiff upper lip" cause they don't have much else, unless I'm playing as the Germans and then those crummy 2 pdrs seem to double in size and penetration. Maybe the 25 pdr fired over open sights in a DF mode would work? That and Hurricane FB's.




Squirmer -> (8/2/2002 9:39:45 PM)

Good question. FWIW here are my thoughts.

I am currently getting my butt kicked as Germans vs Brits in a 1941 PBEM. I have (or rather had) lots of Pz IIIs and IVs, the Brits as you say have nothing better than a 2 pdr, both AT gun and mounted in tanks. So how did my tanks die?

Most importantly, they were constantly being suppressed by tons of 25 pdr arty shells. Also by small arms fire and the extremely useful 2 inch mortar that every other Brit grunt carries ;) My tanks being thus suppressed the numerous Brit tanks were able to close the range from multiple angles and, eventually, achieve penetration with their 2 pdr popguns. N.B. Even if this gun has a hard time knocking out the panzers it is still perfectly capable of taking out their guns, immobilising them etc.

So to summarise: Suppress, Outnumber, Close the Range and get the Infantry to help out (the 2 inch mortar even took one tank out!).




Jim1954 -> (8/2/2002 9:48:11 PM)

That and hang on till you can get IIIj's and IVF2's. I'm doing Desert Fox now. You ever tried to tackle a Matilda with a 37mm in a IIIE? Ain't easy.




rbrunsman -> (8/3/2002 12:16:37 AM)

My two cents:

When I played the Brits in the desert, I used the sand dunes (those hexes with 1 elevation) to hide my AT squads, I use smoke to take away the German gun range advantage. The Germans will kill you at any range so you may as well bring them close in so you have a chance.

When I played the Germans against the Brits I used my tanks in coordination picking off the straglers and staying out of sight if I could. The German tanks are faster, I used that adavantage. The Brits have a numerical advantage because the tanks are so much cheaper. So as a Brit, I would keep tanks close enough together to offer support to each other and get in close quickly. If you play a standoff game you will lose. You need to swarm them. (This is a pre-Tiger suggestion.)

I can tell you from experience that those Brit AT guns are hard to see. I lost a Stug to one because I didn't see it until I was right on top of it. The 37mm AA is almost impossible to see. In my last PBEM I never saw them but I knew Brutto-Bob had two of them. They can really harrass the Germans and kill HTs and lightly armored JdPzs easily. So, in a meeting engagement, let the German come to you so you have AT and AA support and then get very aggressive with your tanks.




VikingNo2 -> (8/3/2002 2:00:27 AM)

As bait get some Matilda's, try the CS version(its has smoke) if the german player take the bait you can swrm him on his flanks, as RB( RB should change his name to KingSneaky) spoke of, also the 25pound arty gives you a wide spead when it lands it may not kill him but its very good for reducing his/her vision


P.S. I you have a min please go over to the Goblin thread and join us in a Goblin/M4 call you will see when you get over there




gainiac -> Well first an foremost............ (8/4/2002 10:31:35 AM)

If you don't have a gunnery advantage deny the same for your enemy.

In other words use things like reverse slope defenses, short range ( <10 hexes ) flanking attacks and manipulate LOS via smoke.

Don't give the enemy a shot until he's within YOUR firing parameters, that way the footing may be on more equal terms and If you pulled it off correctly you may even have the advantage of a surprise.

A good defense is never static, resistance disappears from where the enemy is strong and concentrates where he is weak.

BTW you can never have enough artillery.

Martin




G_X -> (8/4/2002 12:39:58 PM)

[QUOTE]A good defense is never static, resistance disappears from where the enemy is strong and concentrates where he is weak. [/QUOTE]

I wonder if the Americans listened to that at the Bulge? Does anyone know if they counter attacked the lines or something during the bulge?

I just wanted to know, since it's not something I'd heard before, I'd always moved units to reinforce areas that were under heavy attack. Was I wrong for doing this?




Frank W. -> Re: Brits and AT fire (8/4/2002 6:32:20 PM)

- 40mm bofors
- 25 pd arty
- boys at rifle (supression and damage!)




Gaius Marius -> (8/4/2002 9:14:15 PM)

Thanks everyone, great advice - or at least is sounds like it :).

anyway, I will post here how I do. Should be a challenge for me, since as the Germans I TRIED to engage at maximum range.

Sounds like I will have to learn to operate in small groups behind smoke, etc, rather than as a long front of panzers backed up by 88s...




gainiac -> Defense..........IS OFFENSE!!!!!!!!! (8/4/2002 9:16:45 PM)

Re:


"I wonder if the Americans listened to that at the Bulge? Does anyone know if they counter attacked the lines or something during the bulge? "

I really don't know the answer to this since the Bulge was a massive series of smaller engagements.........

"I just wanted to know, since it's not something I'd heard before, I'd always moved units to reinforce areas that were under heavy attack. Was I wrong for doing this?"

Depends...........I can't see the logic in reinforcing an area against a full frontal assault if you can just roll around to the flank and hit him in the sides.......It's a sucker ploy, provide just enough resistance while retreating to keep him coming then WHAM!!!!from the flanks with a coordinated preliminary artillery strike.

The only time I reinforce on a defense is to hold a critical piece of land.

It's much easier to take V-Hexes when you've wiped your enemy off the map.

Until I've accomplished that I tend to ignore V-Hexes.........

Martin




Frank W. -> Re: Brits and AT fire (8/4/2002 11:14:07 PM)

how about an e-mail game in the desert?

time period and side on your choice??

sag bescheid!

frank




[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaius Marius
[B]Add to this that there is no flame armor available and that any AT inf would have to work in the open desert, and I am largely at a loss as to how to break the large panzer forces the AI loves throwing at me reliably.

[/B][/QUOTE]




Gaius Marius -> (8/4/2002 11:35:39 PM)

Sounds good to me - though it would be my first PBEM game.

I've been meaning to try it, but have been busy beating up on the AI :).

So long as you have the patience to deal with a rookie (I.e., be willing to explain HOW you beat me), I'm up for it.

Maybe email me?

[email]richarnd@yahoo.com[/email]

freue mich darauf...


-N




john g -> Re: Brits and AT fire (8/6/2002 2:44:12 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaius Marius
[B]Being a fan of the Long WWII Campaigns, I want to give the Brits (another) try. I have played most of the war as Germany, and good parts of it as the US Army and Russkies.

The first time I played, however, was as the Brits. It was a blast, until I got into the desert and had nothing to penetrate a PzIII or IV effectively.

Since then, my AT capabilities have gotten better as I have, at least to some degree, learned to use infantry effectively vs armor.

However, looking at the availability of AT weapons in the encyclopedia, it still looks like I would have nothing better than a 2lb QQF Late (70 max pen, I think) until sometime in early to mid 1942. The exception is the 3inch AA gun, which has something like 105 pen, max. That doesn't seem TOO great, and I am wondering if it is wildly ahistorical to use the gun like I would an 88 - or even if it would work that way, given its ammo loadout and reduced penetration.

Add to this that there is no flame armor available and that any AT inf would have to work in the open desert, and I am largely at a loss as to how to break the large panzer forces the AI loves throwing at me reliably.

Has anyone played the British in the desert in a campaign and found a solution I ai'nt seein'? Maybe someone that has played the Desert Fox Mega Campaign?

Thanks in advance... [/B][/QUOTE]

Add to the suggestions you have recieved, fire from above, it negates the angle benefit of sloped armor. Towed 2 pdrs are cheap and small, they can either act as a gun line, ripple firing at approaching armor (never your full firing rate so the enemy tanks never get to see them and shoot back), or they can hide and and take shots as the enemy pass. Use Matilda II's as the key to your tank strength. They do an excellent job of resisting German fire and can dish it out as well as the paper thin tanks that populate the UK oob.

Beyond 10 or so hexes the 25 lbr actually has better penetration compared to the 2 lbr, just no where near as much at ammo, in my UK campaign, the platoon 2 in mortars were upgraded to 25 lbrs after the first battle.

I never had problems with German armor, the worst handling my force ever got was against Italian forces, back when they bought all that battleship support each battle.

I had my entire infantry company plastered by 305mm arty, and the company of Matilda II's that were supporting them ran out of mg ammo taking on the 3+ companies of infantry that the Itailians had. After seeing my force decimated and with my tanks out of ammo and being swarmed, I punched out with a surrender, and then continued on after using my pool of replacement points to repair the core force.

It has been a while, but I seem to recall that I ended up playing against the Italians more than the Germans. Just like when playing playing the Germans I ended up against the Americans more than against the UK in 44 and 45 (and the key there is all the AA your support points can buy when playing against the Americans but none when playing against the UK).
thanks, John.




panda124c -> Re: Brits and AT fire (8/6/2002 7:13:45 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gaius Marius
[B]Being a fan of the Long WWII Campaigns, I want to give the Brits (another) try. I have played most of the war as Germany, and good parts of it as the US Army and Russkies.

The first time I played, however, was as the Brits. It was a blast, until I got into the desert and had nothing to penetrate a PzIII or IV effectively.

Since then, my AT capabilities have gotten better as I have, at least to some degree, learned to use infantry effectively vs armor.

However, looking at the availability of AT weapons in the encyclopedia, it still looks like I would have nothing better than a 2lb QQF Late (70 max pen, I think) until sometime in early to mid 1942. The exception is the 3inch AA gun, which has something like 105 pen, max. That doesn't seem TOO great, and I am wondering if it is wildly ahistorical to use the gun like I would an 88 - or even if it would work that way, given its ammo loadout and reduced penetration.

Add to this that there is no flame armor available and that any AT inf would have to work in the open desert, and I am largely at a loss as to how to break the large panzer forces the AI loves throwing at me reliably.

Has anyone played the British in the desert in a campaign and found a solution I ai'nt seein'? Maybe someone that has played the Desert Fox Mega Campaign?

Thanks in advance... [/B][/QUOTE] What use a 3 inch AA gun against tanks, I say, it just not done. The British did now use their 3 inch AA gun like the Germans used the 88's, it just was not allowed (lack of flexible thinking). The 25 lb gun is short on AT but it will rattle a MK IV with the HE round. Also the smoke can be used to mask German AT guns. Those little MK VI with the .5 in MG are nasty against light targets including HT's. The 2 lb guns should be used in mass on the flanks of the German Armour. The Matilda CS (all the CS in fact) are superior to the 2 lb armed tanks. IIRC their fire control is better than the 2lb tank gun.

The problem I have with the British is their Infantry Companies, they have no heavy or med. MGs.




Curieus -> CS tanks (8/6/2002 7:26:29 PM)

With carefull use the cruiser III-CS (IIRC) is the best CS tank for ambushes. It sports a whopping 3.7 inch howitzer with 90mm max penetration (1.5 times the 2 pounder) and a relatively high firing rate. Later they go back to a 3 inch howitzer, i really don't understand why, since it is a step back all the way.




bigtroutz -> (8/7/2002 1:49:17 AM)

Don't forget to examine the canadian, Indian, and Anzac alternatives when playing pre-1943 brits. Some of these units, like Indian FT infantry, or the canadian RAM II provide useful heavy firepower not available in the British OOB list.




john g -> Re: CS tanks (8/7/2002 9:00:24 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Curieus
[B]With carefull use the cruiser III-CS (IIRC) is the best CS tank for ambushes.
It sports a whopping 3.7 inch howitzer with 90mm max penetration (1.5 times the 2 pounder) and a relatively high firing rate. Later they go back to a 3 inch howitzer, i really don't understand why, since it is a step back all the way. [/B][/QUOTE]

It may have a rating of 90 pen, but it never gets used. The Cruiser IIICS doesn't have any AP ammo. If anyone was fooled into taking one they would see alot of HE nonpenetrating hits.

And for the gentleman above who stated the UK never used heavy AA against tanks, they were used at Tobruk during Rommels first attempt to capture the city against tanks. It was an emergency and they used what they had, but the UK army never made it doctrine.
thanks, John.




panda124c -> Re: Re: CS tanks (8/8/2002 12:22:51 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by john g
[B]

It may have a rating of 90 pen, but it never gets used. The Cruiser IIICS doesn't have any AP ammo. If anyone was fooled into taking one they would see alot of HE nonpenetrating hits.

And for the gentleman above who stated the UK never used heavy AA against tanks, they were used at Tobruk during Rommels first attempt to capture the city against tanks. It was an emergency and they used what they had, but the UK army never made it doctrine.
thanks, John. [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't know if I should be insulted or what 'gentleman'????
Oh well, so they were used against tanks, I didn't think they were issued AP rounds, but you know those Aussie's first ones to chuck the rules out the window. :D :D




Curieus -> Pen 90 and cruiser mk III-CS (8/8/2002 4:28:16 PM)

I am not quite so sure it never gets used. I have had several PzKfw III(e-j) blow up on frontal hits. This may be case where the AP rating also is valid for HE ammo, just like often is the case for MG's. Anyway, i do not really care if that rating is used, as long as the german tanks brew when hit. And the few instances i am forced to use the mkIII-CS for AT purposes, they do nicely :)




rbrunsman -> (8/9/2002 12:50:24 AM)

I'll take any large bore HE round in a pinch. I fired one of my Sig's 150mm HE at Brutto-Bob's Matilda II straight on the front armor just to let him know I was watching that flank and damned if that Matilda didn't light up like a firecracker!:D :D

And his MkIII-CS's did cause me considerable concern when I saw that big 3.7" cannon pointing at my precious PzIIIh's. On the other hand, I laughed at the shots of this 2 pounders at anything over 250 yards.




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.6875