AI improvements? (Full Version)

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[GD]Vernichter -> AI improvements? (7/6/2010 6:24:46 PM)

I bought TLD on sunday and started testing it after applying both patches (public and beta). Now I wonder, where is the improved AI?
Sure, the enemy "BG-AI" is way better than the original CC5 AI, but still it is unable to attack (i.e. take the allied side in a campaign) or place its units in a reasonable way (some examples: sMG 34 behind a building or beside it in the middle of the road instead of in the building, troops in the open when there are plenty buildings or other cover options...)
But thats not really bothering me because i usually play H2H, so i looked for the promised "improvements" in the unit AI and i have to say that i am truly disappointed (again...).[:-]

The pathing AI is still totally inadequate (squads and vehicles):
- Squads are still incapable of following a route with multiple waypoints in an orderly manner. About half the times i use multiple waypoints, one of the waypoints will be left out and the squad will go back (!!!) to "clear" the waypoint. Sometimes the waypoint will be just ignored (i.e. the squad will take the deadly route in the open instead of going through the building as ordered)
- When given a single point movement order squads and vehicles often take unnecessary, sometimes even deadly, detours.
- Vehicles still "dance" around (i.e. turning back and forth) instead of driving straight lines. I wanted to test the mine clearing capabilities of a Sherman crab and sent it straight (!!!) through a minefield on Ouistreham, the path was aprox. 100m long and without any elevation changes only 3 different terrain types grass, sand and minefield. Instead of driving a straight from A to B the Crab drove like a drunk and disabled itself by turning on a mine (which wasn't disabled by the flail as it should have been)

And then there are still the same problems with the main weapons in a squad or vehicle, often enough the unit has a clear LOS but the main weapon or the tank gunner "can't see"... My MG teams seem to have this problem only after relocating, but sometimes my teams move without orders or any apparent reason and when i send them back my MG gunners turn "blind".



Redmarkus5 -> RE: AI improvements? (7/10/2010 2:33:42 PM)

CC AI is broken and has been forever. Look at the Arnhem forum - same issues...



[GD]Vernichter -> RE: AI improvements? (7/10/2010 3:37:33 PM)

Yes I know that, but when it says on the product page:
"Further improvements have been made to the AI to reduce some of the more inadequate performance issues, in particular with respect to vehicle pathing, the 'crawl of death', and Team and Unit morale and response in general."
then, I think, we as customers are entitled to demand that those promises are kept. Let us not forget that we have paid for this game, and we paid the full retail price ( i bought Red Dead Redemption for just 5€ more than TLD) for a product that is essentially 10 years old and was considered outdated even back then (CCV in this case)!
Don't get me wrong but I am feeling like a drug addict, I love the core mechanics of the CC series (I own every game from CC III to CC:TLD) but sadly there is just no other game around which is like CC, so I have to stick to CC and pay staggering prices to get tiny improvements which should have been incorporated in those games right from the start.
Generally I think all those Re-Releases are a great idea and they brought fresh content, but I expected a lot more (mainly improvements in the Unit-AI) considering the asking price...



UltraGott -> RE: AI improvements? (8/5/2010 10:26:19 AM)

you are speaking from the bottom of my heart!
and why the hell are gun- and vehicle crews still unable to do anything when they abandoned there gun/vehicle. at least they should be able to follow orders to take save positions, which they accordingly ignore.
i mean how hard can it be to integrate this after 10 years!



Andrew Williams -> RE: AI improvements? (8/5/2010 11:06:45 AM)

You can order all the crews around you want in Cross of Iron.



UltraGott -> RE: AI improvements? (8/5/2010 11:56:38 AM)

sorry, but i just tried it yesterday with TLD, no reaction from guncrew on any orders. and no, they weren´t suppressed or pinned. they weren´t even under fire. they just didn´t do anything after abandonning and taking position in the bushes.



Andrew Williams -> RE: AI improvements? (8/5/2010 8:50:49 PM)

Correct, they hide hoping to survive to man a gun in the next fight.



UltraGott -> RE: AI improvements? (8/6/2010 7:52:09 AM)

they could easily survive if they´d obey my orders to take position in the hegdrow i chose, not the one they tought would give them best protection.
but i think i do understand. the ability to command crews was just implemented in cross of iron and dropped for WAR and TLD, right?



Andrew Williams -> RE: AI improvements? (8/6/2010 8:04:11 AM)

No

It was implemented in CC3 and was carried over into CoI


It was dropped in CC4/5 and carried over in WaR/tLD

A new run for you life mechanism has been introduced in LSA



UltraGott -> RE: AI improvements? (8/6/2010 9:58:40 AM)

pointless



Andrew Williams -> RE: AI improvements? (8/6/2010 10:12:04 AM)

Now with points

1. It was implemented in CC3 and was carried over into CoI


2. It was dropped in CC4/5 and carried over in WaR/tLD

3. A new run for you life mechanism has been introduced in LSA

Addendum to #3 - so they live to fight with new equipment



UltraGott -> RE: AI improvements? (8/6/2010 12:06:16 PM)

ok, what does this sentence mean?
"You can order all the crews around you want in Cross of Iron. "
i thought it meant: i give a crew the order to move to a certain position and they´ll do it.
and as i said
"sorry, but i just tried it yesterday with TLD, no reaction from guncrew on any orders."
you answered:
"Correct, they hide hoping to survive to man a gun in the next fight."

don´t get me wrong, i don´t wanna argue. i´d just like to know if they should follow my moving orders (and don´t because it´s kind of a bug) or if they´ll just keep on hiding.




Andrew Williams -> RE: AI improvements? (8/6/2010 12:21:52 PM)

Game 1 = Close Combat cross of Iron - You can order your crews around after they abandon their gun/vehicle. (you can use your crews as kamikze's or scouts)


Game 2 = The Longest Day - Your crews abandon their gun/vehicle and seek cover nearby, they then hide. (they do not follow orders as they are hiding and probably a more realistic modelling of crews than game 1)



mooxe -> RE: AI improvements? (8/6/2010 11:31:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

Correct, they hide hoping to survive to man a gun in the next fight.


Nobody can prove this actually happens in the game. As far as I know, when a team is removed from the forcepool you lose all attributes associated with the team. When a gun or tank is destroyed but crew survives, its equal to removing them from the forcepool no?

So when you say they hide to hopefully man a gun the next fight, the only purpose that serves is to reflect history.

So I guess gun and tank crews were cowardly insubordinate soldiers?

Theres better ways to do this than just one rule for them all.



davidss -> RE: AI improvements? (8/7/2010 12:19:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mooxe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

Correct, they hide hoping to survive to man a gun in the next fight.


Nobody can prove this actually happens in the game. As far as I know, when a team is removed from the forcepool you lose all attributes associated with the team. When a gun or tank is destroyed but crew survives, its equal to removing them from the forcepool no?

So when you say they hide to hopefully man a gun the next fight, the only purpose that serves is to reflect history.

So I guess gun and tank crews were cowardly insubordinate soldiers?

Theres better ways to do this than just one rule for them all.

After thinking about this, I wonder what happened in Normandy (real life) when a Tank crew lost their ride ... both from an Allied and German perspective.
Allied: Did the crew get a ride to the beach and jump in a new tank? Or did they get shipped back to England?
German: Was there any tanks available for them? Did they return back to Germany? Or were things desperate enough for them to fight as infantry?

Either way a crew who's tank had been hit and abandoned may have been sent back for R&R, further training, and/or medical evaluation.
I'm not sure if CC simulates any of these above mentioned ideas [:)]

David
It would be an interesting to find some examples of real life encounters.



Andrew Williams -> RE: AI improvements? (8/7/2010 12:20:34 AM)

For LSA I've been told if they survive they will man another gun if it is available.... i would assume this was the case for tLD and CC5 as well

I suppose getting the names of crews that abandon guns/vehicles and see if they reappear later is the only way to test.

And testing that is not high on my priority list.



Tejszd -> RE: AI improvements? (7/26/2011 4:55:13 PM)

For CC3/COI crews were controllable and you were encouraged to have them to survive in a campaign as you could buy them a new gun/vehicle.

For CC4/5/WAR/TLD because of the force-pool men are not as important to keep alive. Thus the change so that crews hide which might be more realistic but even if it is not it stops a player from running them around the map as cannon fodder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

For LSA I've been told if they survive they will man another gun if it is available.... i would assume this was the case for tLD and CC5 as well

I suppose getting the names of crews that abandon guns/vehicles and see if they reappear later is the only way to test.

And testing that is not high on my priority list.


I believe that if enough crew members survive they sometimes can get a new gun/vehicle. Not sure of all the requirements/rules for it to happen though (ex. does a tank have to have been only be damaged, does the force-pool have to have another gun/vehicle of the same type, etc.).



kweniston -> RE: AI improvements? (8/18/2011 10:55:55 PM)

For the AI, I would like to see them not running 'en masse' into a smoke column that just screams "mortar barrage coming to a place near you". Keep away.
And I'd like to see the AI spread out the armour/vehicles some more; sometimes the AI starts with 4 tanks as sitting ducks on the same crossroads. Divide the AI armour placings near the owned VL's, would be my tip.



RD Oddball -> RE: AI improvements? (8/19/2011 2:03:27 PM)

Two great suggestions Kweniston. Improvements to the tactical AI is on the list of possible enhancements when we're again given the chance to make further improvements.



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