RE: Sweep vs Escorts

RE: Sweep vs Escorts (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition

Message

EUBanana -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/19/2010 9:31:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron What Nomad, Sardaukar, Nemo and me tried to show, and probably many others already are aware of: the dive is not almighty if you don´t play dumb. Its just another feature. None of that is relevant though. When you have a unit you think will see action you must set its altitude. At that precise moment, what do you set it to? That is the only question I am interested in. Pilot quality, defensiveness, type of aircraft - all irrelevant. At that precise moment where you are about to see action, you must pick an altitude. And with whatever pilot, whatever plane, whatever defensiveness, if you're not trying to escort bombers, then the answer is always the same. The ceiling. I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever - aside from split CAP which we've already touched on as no more than partially relevanti n practice - that I should set that altitude setting to anything other than the aircrafts ceiling. There is plenty more to the game than altitude settings. That is simply stating the obvious. However when it comes to actually choosing an altitude none of that is relevant, I'm talkign about altitude, not, for example, how long you should train a pilot to be competent, or how many Zeroes a P40 is worth on average, or which bases are best to conquer. Just altitude.

Vladd -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/19/2010 10:57:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EUBanana None of that is relevant though. When you have a unit you think will see action you must set its altitude. At that precise moment, what do you set it to? That is the only question I am interested in. Pilot quality, defensiveness, type of aircraft - all irrelevant. At that precise moment where you are about to see action, you must pick an altitude. And with whatever pilot, whatever plane, whatever defensiveness, if you're not trying to escort bombers, then the answer is always the same. The ceiling. Interesting thread to follow. This is the crux of the matter for me also. If I know my fighters have a higher ceiling than their adversaries, why should I set their altitude to anything other than maximum? The issue, mentioned before, seems to me to be that large discrepencies in altitude should result in no contact most of the time. This doesn't happen. It may be possible IRL - under ideal conditions - to spot a non-camouflaged car travelling along an obvious road from 30k, occasionally. But spot (say) a green-painted land-rover moving over a grass field from that height? Impossible. Same with a camouflaged aeroplane. Who will usually always spot the higher aircraft first btw, under the (assumed) ideal visibility... IRL we all know fighters were not routinely told to fly at ceiling altitude in the combat zone. This was true no matter what ceiling the enemy was believed to be capable of. In all the 42 carrier battles (for example) no fighter ever got near their maximum altitude. At Midway VF6 cruised over the Japanese fleet at (a ridiculously modest in AE terms) 22k and still never saw the USN torpedo planes get massacred below by the large numbers of Japanese Zeros. No, the skies weren't clear, but that should be the norm. This should be the penalty incurred by strato-sweeps if defending planes stay low. Your 39k P38s simply don't engage the Oscars at 10k except under near perfect conditions and with excellent leadership. Give the attacker an incentive to go lower...and make the game more interesting whilst you are at it...

topeverest -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/19/2010 11:22:31 PM)
To state the obvious, when providing escort, the unit(s) providing escort typically are at or very near the attack airframes altitude. This causes much of the fighting at lower altitudes. For a variety of reasons out of scope here, I find lower altitudes and multiple altitudes to work better than strato sweeps / caps. not scientific, but imo what i have seen.

Kwik E Mart -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 12:20:12 AM)
to quote TheElf from a War Room thread from March: "There is no air this game. Lowering the Altitudes to those that are more representative of those flown IRL would do nothing, as the relative performance advantages would be the same when interpolated at lower Alt. Players will always find a way to game the system.... This issue is likely best resolved by House Rule as much as it pains me to say it. AE leadership has stated, and continues to state that AE support will remain at the Bug squashing level. This is not a bug. It is a player loophole in the code. There are lots of loopholes. HOUSE Rule. Sweeps May be flown NO higher than the top altitude in their Optimum Altitude Band. CAP may be flown at any altitude. This may sound unfair, but CAP is limited to only a portion being airborne @ the assigned altitude, the rest have to scramble and as such would be at disadvantage." ...yer pissin' in the wind boys...[:D]...hopefully all the bugs get squashed soon and this can be properly addressed...in the meantime, break out your HR's!

witpqs -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 1:31:09 AM)
Here's my 2 cents worth. I see that IRL planes had various altitude capabilities and some got the better of others and that's how it was. The game is engineered to be true to the overall historic capabilities, not every single small historical fact. That's only practical. So, I think having fighters come it at 30+ zillion feet is fine, 'cause its only an abstraction. It does bother many people to see that. My opponent and I discussed it. At first we settled on an altitude limit of 30,000ft, but he noted that many of my fighters (P-40's) are limited to 29,000 and so the P-38's advantage was reduced but the Zero/Tojo/whatever's advantage versus the P-40 was still in place. He offered to lower the limit to 29,000. But some planes have ceilings a bit lower (Wildcats are 28,300 for example), so we settled on 25,000ft. We had also discussed the bands thing and various formulas to set altitude for each plane type - but all of that is a micromanagement nightmare with player error after player error just waiting to happen. My advice is either have no altitude limit at all or set one altitude limit for everything and be done with it. [8D]

LoBaron -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 5:15:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EUBanana quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron What Nomad, Sardaukar, Nemo and me tried to show, and probably many others already are aware of: the dive is not almighty if you don´t play dumb. Its just another feature. None of that is relevant though. When you have a unit you think will see action you must set its altitude. At that precise moment, what do you set it to? That is the only question I am interested in. Pilot quality, defensiveness, type of aircraft - all irrelevant. At that precise moment where you are about to see action, you must pick an altitude. And with whatever pilot, whatever plane, whatever defensiveness, if you're not trying to escort bombers, then the answer is always the same. The ceiling. I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever - aside from split CAP which we've already touched on as no more than partially relevanti n practice - that I should set that altitude setting to anything other than the aircrafts ceiling. There is plenty more to the game than altitude settings. That is simply stating the obvious. However when it comes to actually choosing an altitude none of that is relevant, I'm talkign about altitude, not, for example, how long you should train a pilot to be competent, or how many Zeroes a P40 is worth on average, or which bases are best to conquer. Just altitude. quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron CAP engaged: 201 Ku S-1/A with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling) 1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes 201 Ku S-1/B with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling) 1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters to 14000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes 201 Ku S-1/C with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling) 1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes post #134 And yes, I know you are not interested in split CAP. Fine, so you are not using an option you have. You could as well say "I´m not interested in +30k" Its entirely up to you. [;)]

castor troy -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 7:22:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart to quote TheElf from a War Room thread from March: "There is no air this game. Lowering the Altitudes to those that are more representative of those flown IRL would do nothing, as the relative performance advantages would be the same when interpolated at lower Alt. Players will always find a way to game the system.... This issue is likely best resolved by House Rule as much as it pains me to say it. AE leadership has stated, and continues to state that AE support will remain at the Bug squashing level. This is not a bug. It is a player loophole in the code. There are lots of loopholes. HOUSE Rule. Sweeps May be flown NO higher than the top altitude in their Optimum Altitude Band. CAP may be flown at any altitude. This may sound unfair, but CAP is limited to only a portion being airborne @ the assigned altitude, the rest have to scramble and as such would be at disadvantage." ...yer pissin' in the wind boys...[:D]...hopefully all the bugs get squashed soon and this can be properly addressed...in the meantime, break out your HR's! it took months for such a statement though, before it always was: "it´s all fine..." and with the months having past, we´re more or less back at "it´s all fine" when reading the latest comments... like a candle in the wind... [sm=innocent0009.gif]

castor troy -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 7:25:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron quote: ORIGINAL: EUBanana quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron What Nomad, Sardaukar, Nemo and me tried to show, and probably many others already are aware of: the dive is not almighty if you don´t play dumb. Its just another feature. None of that is relevant though. When you have a unit you think will see action you must set its altitude. At that precise moment, what do you set it to? That is the only question I am interested in. Pilot quality, defensiveness, type of aircraft - all irrelevant. At that precise moment where you are about to see action, you must pick an altitude. And with whatever pilot, whatever plane, whatever defensiveness, if you're not trying to escort bombers, then the answer is always the same. The ceiling. I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever - aside from split CAP which we've already touched on as no more than partially relevanti n practice - that I should set that altitude setting to anything other than the aircrafts ceiling. There is plenty more to the game than altitude settings. That is simply stating the obvious. However when it comes to actually choosing an altitude none of that is relevant, I'm talkign about altitude, not, for example, how long you should train a pilot to be competent, or how many Zeroes a P40 is worth on average, or which bases are best to conquer. Just altitude. quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron CAP engaged: 201 Ku S-1/A with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling) 1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes 201 Ku S-1/B with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling) 1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters to 14000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes 201 Ku S-1/C with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling) 1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 20000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes post #134 And yes, I know you are not interested in split CAP. Fine, so you are not using an option you have. You could as well say "I´m not interested in +30k" Its entirely up to you. [;)] you may have missed one more important statement by EUbanana it seems: with different fighters at a base set to Cap you´ve got split Cap by default as they usually all have different ceilings... he couldn´t be more correct. And even with split Cap you then end up most of the times seeing a single higher fighter squadron dive and dive and dive on EVERY other squadron being at a lower alt, split Cap or not...

LoBaron -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 8:30:42 AM)
Maybe but split capping at the lowest performance altitude (strato) against an opponent who can set an even higher ceiling anyway is the wrong way to do it, because you´d get dived on no matter what... [;)] But doesn´t matter. As I see it everbody should do what he think is best.

Sardaukar -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 8:50:34 AM)
Some more interesting trends. Using the same units as in previous split CAP-test, but changing the defender altitudes to 15 000 and 10 000. IJN US (A2A+Ops) 0+1 5+1 3+1 3+1 2+2 2+0 1+0 3+2 2+0 3+2 Apparently 5000ft dispersion is not enough for split CAP to work and sweepers are able to continue energy tactics against both groups. So to me, it seems that split CAP has to have minimum of 10 000ft separation in altitude. Another with same units with altitudes of 20k and 10k. 3+2 5+0 1+1 7+0 0+0 1+0 2+3 1+1 2+1 1+1 1+1 3+0 2+0 3+2 Bigger altitude difference with split CAP helps a bit. Enemy still has edge because of initial altitude and experience (Rufe unit is about 10 points higher in exp and skills) Biggest defensive difference is seen when defending unit has as good or better exp/skills than attacker. Then fights turn to favour of more experienced, despite other having altitude advantage. This indicates that experience and skills do remedy bad tactical situation.

LoBaron -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 8:56:51 AM)
Thats again interesting results Sardaukar. :) Thought it was the other way, but this could depend on aircraft type also, no?

EUBanana -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 9:52:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron Maybe but split capping at the lowest performance altitude (strato) against an opponent who can set an even higher ceiling anyway is the wrong way to do it, because you´d get dived on no matter what... [;)] But we have a test which indicates that 'lowest performance' makes no discernable difference.

Sardaukar -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 10:31:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron Thats again interesting results Sardaukar. :) Thought it was the other way, but this could depend on aircraft type also, no? What I think is that is't bit of paper, rock, scissors-situation, where you often have more than one thing stacked against you. For example, if enemy has better plane (SPD, MVR, Climb, DUR, Armour), it's advantage. Experience and skills are big advantage, altitude is also big advantage. In some situations, for example, not many tactical decisions make you win the battle. Lets take for example Malaya with Zeroes vs. Buffaloes. Now you are against way better plane with way better pilots. If they also come from above (as any IJ player would unless escorting), you are in world of hurt. No amount of split CAP will offset at least 3 advantages, maybe at least 4 if they also have better Air Leader. It may lower the kill ratio a bit, but Buffaloes are going to get creamed even if numbers are similar. I have no doubt about that numerical advantage skews the results even more. I tried to have approx. same number of planes engaging in my tests and achieved it with max. +/- 2 plane difference. But if enemy also has double number planes with all those advantages... In situation like that, I suggest not to fight but pull back and train your pilots so that at least skill levels are comparable before engaging. Sometimes there are no other options but to fight, though. On the other hand, if opposition is sweeping, those planes are not escorting bombers, so you may be able to even the score now and then by killing unescorted bombers. Kills raise pilot exp and skills quickly. To me, it seems that saving better pilots (70+) and sticking them to elite formations is best way to counter enemy a/c superiority locally. Exp/skills seem to be big modifiers. For Japan, it probably also pays to invest R&D to planes that can somewhat compete with allies in altitude. For example, Ki-61 Hien/Tony was historically about only plane that could challenge Allied planes high during mid-war. If starting to get high-altitude sweeps from planes like P-47/P-38, that is bad place to be in Zero/Oscar. There are many modifiers in A2A combat in AE, but some patters can be distinguished. Like, altitude itself is not only thing that kills. Altitude and Exp/skill edge combined is big killer. Add to that better planes and situation gets darker for defender. Defender can lessen the impact by building his pilots to higher exp/skill level and hope for better planes. Or just try to outnumber enemy with experienced pilots. But it's always bad situation if number of factors are stacked against you.

yubari -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 10:50:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart to quote TheElf from a War Room thread from March: "There is no air this game. Lowering the Altitudes to those that are more representative of those flown IRL would do nothing, as the relative performance advantages would be the same when interpolated at lower Alt. Players will always find a way to game the system.... This issue is likely best resolved by House Rule as much as it pains me to say it. AE leadership has stated, and continues to state that AE support will remain at the Bug squashing level. This is not a bug. It is a player loophole in the code. There are lots of loopholes. HOUSE Rule. Sweeps May be flown NO higher than the top altitude in their Optimum Altitude Band. CAP may be flown at any altitude. This may sound unfair, but CAP is limited to only a portion being airborne @ the assigned altitude, the rest have to scramble and as such would be at disadvantage." ...yer pissin' in the wind boys...[:D]...hopefully all the bugs get squashed soon and this can be properly addressed...in the meantime, break out your HR's! Hmm, that is interesting. I am using this house rule in both of my PBEM games and it seems to be working very well, indeed I would say that it is by far the best air model I have seen in all of the WITP games. From my observations it is the sweep bonus that is a far more important factor than altitude in air combat and which is causing some of the unbalanced kill ratios. When the sweep bonus is combined with the altitude bonus then it becomes mighty indeed.

Sardaukar -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 10:55:49 AM)
It is good rule, but with some specific planes like P-47 it might not help much, since at least some models have same MVR on every alt band..allowing very high sweeps. Of course, P-47 was excellent high-altitude fighter anyway, so artificially restricting it might not be fair either.

EUBanana -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/20/2010 11:09:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sardaukar To me, it seems that saving better pilots (70+) and sticking them to elite formations is best way to counter enemy a/c superiority locally. That's certainly true, the game rewards 'flying circuses' of elite pilots. Put them in the best aircraft available and ass will be kicked.

TheElf -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/21/2010 12:39:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sardaukar quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron Thats again interesting results Sardaukar. :) Thought it was the other way, but this could depend on aircraft type also, no? What I think is that is't bit of paper, rock, scissors-situation, where you often have more than one thing stacked against you. For example, if enemy has better plane (SPD, MVR, Climb, DUR, Armour), it's advantage. Experience and skills are big advantage, altitude is also big advantage. In some situations, for example, not many tactical decisions make you win the battle. Lets take for example Malaya with Zeroes vs. Buffaloes. Now you are against way better plane with way better pilots. If they also come from above (as any IJ player would unless escorting), you are in world of hurt. No amount of split CAP will offset at least 3 advantages, maybe at least 4 if they also have better Air Leader. It may lower the kill ratio a bit, but Buffaloes are going to get creamed even if numbers are similar. I have no doubt about that numerical advantage skews the results even more. I tried to have approx. same number of planes engaging in my tests and achieved it with max. +/- 2 plane difference. But if enemy also has double number planes with all those advantages... In situation like that, I suggest not to fight but pull back and train your pilots so that at least skill levels are comparable before engaging. Sometimes there are no other options but to fight, though. On the other hand, if opposition is sweeping, those planes are not escorting bombers, so you may be able to even the score now and then by killing unescorted bombers. Kills raise pilot exp and skills quickly. To me, it seems that saving better pilots (70+) and sticking them to elite formations is best way to counter enemy a/c superiority locally. Exp/skills seem to be big modifiers. For Japan, it probably also pays to invest R&D to planes that can somewhat compete with allies in altitude. For example, Ki-61 Hien/Tony was historically about only plane that could challenge Allied planes high during mid-war. If starting to get high-altitude sweeps from planes like P-47/P-38, that is bad place to be in Zero/Oscar. There are many modifiers in A2A combat in AE, but some patters can be distinguished. Like, altitude itself is not only thing that kills. Altitude and Exp/skill edge combined is big killer. Add to that better planes and situation gets darker for defender. Defender can lessen the impact by building his pilots to higher exp/skill level and hope for better planes. Or just try to outnumber enemy with experienced pilots. But it's always bad situation if number of factors are stacked against you. Bingo....we have a winner.

LoBaron -> RE: Sweep vs Escorts (7/21/2010 5:50:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sardaukar quote: ORIGINAL: LoBaron Thats again interesting results Sardaukar. :) Thought it was the other way, but this could depend on aircraft type also, no? What I think is that is't bit of paper, rock, scissors-situation, where you often have more than one thing stacked against you. For example, if enemy has better plane (SPD, MVR, Climb, DUR, Armour), it's advantage. Experience and skills are big advantage, altitude is also big advantage. In some situations, for example, not many tactical decisions make you win the battle. Lets take for example Malaya with Zeroes vs. Buffaloes. Now you are against way better plane with way better pilots. If they also come from above (as any IJ player would unless escorting), you are in world of hurt. No amount of split CAP will offset at least 3 advantages, maybe at least 4 if they also have better Air Leader. It may lower the kill ratio a bit, but Buffaloes are going to get creamed even if numbers are similar. I have no doubt about that numerical advantage skews the results even more. I tried to have approx. same number of planes engaging in my tests and achieved it with max. +/- 2 plane difference. But if enemy also has double number planes with all those advantages... In situation like that, I suggest not to fight but pull back and train your pilots so that at least skill levels are comparable before engaging. Sometimes there are no other options but to fight, though. On the other hand, if opposition is sweeping, those planes are not escorting bombers, so you may be able to even the score now and then by killing unescorted bombers. Kills raise pilot exp and skills quickly. To me, it seems that saving better pilots (70+) and sticking them to elite formations is best way to counter enemy a/c superiority locally. Exp/skills seem to be big modifiers. For Japan, it probably also pays to invest R&D to planes that can somewhat compete with allies in altitude. For example, Ki-61 Hien/Tony was historically about only plane that could challenge Allied planes high during mid-war. If starting to get high-altitude sweeps from planes like P-47/P-38, that is bad place to be in Zero/Oscar. There are many modifiers in A2A combat in AE, but some patters can be distinguished. Like, altitude itself is not only thing that kills. Altitude and Exp/skill edge combined is big killer. Add to that better planes and situation gets darker for defender. Defender can lessen the impact by building his pilots to higher exp/skill level and hope for better planes. Or just try to outnumber enemy with experienced pilots. But it's always bad situation if number of factors are stacked against you. Great summary. [:)]

Page: << < prev 3 4 5 6 [7]

Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.03125