1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (Full Version)

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taltamir -> 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/13/2010 9:38:53 PM)

uploaded as taltamir 1.0.5.8 2010-07-13 all exploration ships explore the same planet.rar

I build a bunch of exploration ships at once early on to get some good amount of exploration done... problem is, they all go to explore the same planet. (because its the nearest unexplored planet).

they should each be set to explore a different unexplored system.

for example, I just finished building 4 explorers named: gulrath vagrant, lurker of gulrath, brisk starrider, and last impulse. All of which promptly went to explore the same moon (named EG922).

EDIT: Oops, this was supposed to go in tech support subforum.



Winter Warrior -> RE: 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/13/2010 11:18:27 PM)

In the meantime, you should try the explore sector command. There's very little effort in doing that. Yes, I noticed the same thing in 1.0.5.7, I accidentally had assigned two exploration ships to the same sector. They almost flew in formation, they kept exploring the same things right after another.



Deldk -> RE: 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/14/2010 8:37:05 AM)

The "issue" has been commented before, and responded to by Erik. Post 3 on  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2483545&mpage=1&key=&#2483545 but tested i have only seen exploration ships on automatic, sometime explore same planet/system and then later start explore different systems. and i figured that, yes they often end up at the same place, but I only notice this because i got the message that a ship had finished its mission. but if one f.ex. had put several ships on a sector explore, at the end the ships would undoubtedly crowding the same planet.



taltamir -> RE: 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/14/2010 9:03:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deldk

The "issue" has been commented before, and responded to by Erik. Post 3 on  http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2483545&mpage=1&key=� but tested i have only seen exploration ships on automatic, sometime explore same planet/system and then later start explore different systems. and i figured that, yes they often end up at the same place, but I only notice this because i got the message that a ship had finished its mission. but if one f.ex. had put several ships on a sector explore, at the end the ships would undoubtedly crowding the same planet.


I uploaded a save showing the ships flying in PERFECT FORMATION towards the same goal... It is extremely obvious if you: 1. Pause the game 2. Go to a medium / large spaceport 3. Queue a bunch of exploration ships

every "batch" will finish together and fly in perfect formation. They also all targeted the same exact moon.



sbach2o -> RE: 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/14/2010 10:36:26 AM)

This synchronicity of exploration ships has been reported several times, and the claim is that the explorers will after a time go their individual ways. I have never put this to the test.

After early misfortunes with explorers on auto I manage my small fleet by hand, doing approximately this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Winter Warrior

In the meantime, you should try the explore sector command. There's very little effort in doing that. Yes, I noticed the same thing in 1.0.5.7, I accidentally had assigned two exploration ships to the same sector. They almost flew in formation, they kept exploring the same things right after another.


That is only a work-around, of course, quite micromanagement-heavy and no replacement for passable automatisms. And consider this: When assigning sectors to be explored it is good practice to have only one explorer per sector. Depending on galaxy size a sector may take a very long time exploring this way, but to my dismay I found out that adding more explorers to a sector may not make things faster as they have a tendency to synchronize, the bastards!

This is of course a different problem, though related to this issue. I've never reported this, much less with a save game, because this synchronization-habit is one whichs relevance I find hard to gauge. Seeing synchronized explorers is making me angry while they're just doing their duty when going separate ways. There is the claim that they will de-synchronize eventually. I never watched my sector explorers for long enough to test whether this claim holds true in this context (after all, they're not on auto). I do not beleive it, though. My gut feeling is that it happens too often with too few explorers being at work.

Note, that uploaded save games aren't fit to illustrate statistics and gut feelings and the like. There'd only ever be one or two individual occurences that I haven't resolved through manual intervention. So I am not gonna waste bandwidth with this. It should be an easy to reproduce issue. I am playing 1000 stars galaxies with plenty of systems per sector, btw.

Resolving the original issue (explorers on auto starting out synchronized) more satisfactory than it is handled now might prove difficult. Good algorythms to handle this kind of problem may turn out memory and/or computation intensive. The same is probably true for my beef with sector-wise exploration.

Tip of the day: In addition to having exploration ships on auto or sector-wise exploration, use a few ships (explorers or military) you can spare to queue up chains of patrol system-commands for stars you have no info on. Just having a ship breeze through a system will uncover habitable planets, ancient ruins and independent colonies. This kind of turbo-exploration cannot be matched by the AI and will put the player far ahead.



taltamir -> RE: 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/14/2010 11:56:32 AM)

i think the resolution is for each explorer to "claim" the nearest unexplored system (maybe with some regard to distance from capital)... When the last system is claimed by an explorer, start doubling up (up to a point)... when no more unexplored systems remain, set them to "explore" systems that haven't been visited in a while.

to be more technical.. i suggest: 1. create a list of system which have not been fully explored at game creation, sorted by distance from capital. list should allow the association of two exploration ships per system. 1b. if capital is moved, recreate the list. 2. create a separate list of known "special exploration targets" (aka, when you discover something "special")... 2b. consider an "explore special" mission, and a function where the discovery of a special target causes the closest two exploration vessels which are not performing an "explore special", "repair", or "refuel" mission to stop whatever they are doing (say, explore system) and go explore the special. 3. create an if else function to determine exploration vessels orders. a. when an exploration ship is trying to figure out what to do it should check to see if there is an unassigned special target, if there is, go there. (becoming assigned to it). make two ships do that. b. if there are no unassigned special targets, look at the list of systems to explore. if it already has a ship assigned, skip it. if it doesn't has a ship assigned, check the distance from self to target system, and from target system to home planet, add those two up, get this value for the 10 systems closest to the capital which don't have a ship assigned, become assigned to the closest of those 10. c. if all systems have had a ship assigned, go over the list again, double up. d. if all remaining systems to explore have ships doubled up on them (or there are no remaining systems to explore), start "spying" (aka, visiting systems you don't have sight in. e. whenever a planet, moon, astroid, etc is explored, check if there are any unexplored objects in the system, if none exist, mark system as "fully explored" (thus removing it from exploration list). f. check to see an assigned ship is still "assigned" to a system and has not been crippled / interrupted occasionally... either as a timed function, or whenever a ship is looking over a target... that is, when performing step b, any system for which an explorer has been assigned should call a function to check if it is still assigned, if not, clear the assigned ship field, if yes, then move on to next one.

I believe that covers all the bases. making for a robust AI that explores systems systematically, effectively, and orders of magnitude faster then currently. And accounts for everything that can go wrong. mmm.. wait, one more thing. account for space monsters / pirates somehow to not send all explorers to their death.



Yarasala -> RE: 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/14/2010 5:16:19 PM)

And take map trades into account.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could program the AI in such a way ourselves? [;)]



taltamir -> RE: 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/14/2010 5:24:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yarasala

And take map trades into account.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could program the AI in such a way ourselves? [;)]


I forgot about map trades, an important catch... I think the best solution is that a map trade should trigger a re-population of the lists. If anyone else notices something I missed, mention it. Remember when the "patrol system" crashed if you told it to patrol an empty system? that is because in computers you gotta account for EVERY possibility... so forgetting one will lead to a bug. Had I been the one to program it I would have forgotten to account for map trades (in this case) and it would have caused bugs. so, yea, definitely helps if people double check that every possibility is accounted for.



Florestan -> RE: 1.0.5.8 all exploration ships explore same planet (7/15/2010 9:03:26 PM)

Well, if you program it smartly, your program should handle many things like that without you having to thing about it, when you add new, previously unplanned functionality. That's what the object oriented programming was invented for : make more robust, adaptable programs that take less time to develop. But that takes quite some experience to achieve. In that case, if the game program is well designed (and it probably is) the worst problem the game could have had is probably having the exploration ships remap the system they started before the map trade, before it takes the new information into account. The list you describe would be accessible through a minimal set of methods of some object or class. Any change in the exploration status would have to use the same few methods, would it be exploration or trade. So it would do no difference if a third way of exploring it was added afterwards. For example, you find a map in an abandoned ship, a third case you seem to have forgotten... Whatever the way this object handle the list, the program that adds the new system or planet would have to ask it to mark the system as explored. The exploration ships would still have to ask it to know what to explore next. This way, you cannot forget anything.



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