Damaged carriers (Full Version)

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Kingfish -> Damaged carriers (8/4/2002 8:27:47 PM)

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but i couldn't find the answer in either the manual or search.

Question: What is the min speed for a carrier to launch aircraft?

Is it better to send a damaged carrier (30+ system damage, no floatation or fire) back to pearl, or park it at Nomeau and hope the local bodyshop can patch her up in time?

My reason for asking is I am playing #7, which covers the period Aug through Dec '42. It is October and I've just sent Hornet back to pearl, and now find out that she won't be availible for another 120+ days. That pretty much guarantees I won't see her again. Did I do the right thing?



Capt Cliff -> (8/4/2002 11:28:35 PM)

That depends on the Vm of the aircraft! Vm meaning minimum speed that the wings start producing enough lift to support the aircrafts weight. A Piper cub could take off with the CV at anchor. While the Hornet had to pour the coal on the get Doolittle's B-25's off. Most WWII carrier aircraft minimum speed was 70-90 knots depending on gross weight of the aircraft.

As for the repair queston, if you got system damage only and it's less than 50, hold on to the CV and let the locals fix'er up. That's what I'd do.



Kingfish -> (8/5/2002 9:10:15 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt Cliff
[B]That depends on the Vm of the aircraft! Vm meaning minimum speed that the wings start producing enough lift to support the aircrafts weight. A Piper cub could take off with the CV at anchor. While the Hornet had to pour the coal on the get Doolittle's B-25's off. Most WWII carrier aircraft minimum speed was 70-90 knots depending on gross weight of the aircraft.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok, but what is it in UV terms? I'm guessing that it is one standard number for all types of aircraft.



Raverdave -> (8/5/2002 10:30:38 AM)

I tend to disagree, anything over 20% systems damage should be sent to Pearl. Of course if the situation requires, you could repair it at B or N, and maybe get the sys damage down. But as a general rulr, anything that has 20% or greater I send back.



denisonh -> 30% is A good Rule of Thumb (8/5/2002 12:22:33 PM)

Unless the ship can benefit from weapon upgrades, I keep'em local at less than 30%.

Once it gets to less than 20%, the repair speeds up, and it also forms a "resreve" if you need ships in a pinch. If I send a carrier to Pearl in Sep 1942, I should not expect it back until May-June 1943(180 days). If it has only 21-35 damage points, I can get it up and operational way before then at Noumea or Brisbane. And remeber, you can't get any more carriers until the Essex shows up in February, so be careful!



NorthStar -> Re: Damaged carriers (8/5/2002 11:55:12 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kingfish
[B]I'm sure this has been discussed before, but i couldn't find the answer in either the manual or search.

Question: What is the min speed for a carrier to launch aircraft?

Is it better to send a damaged carrier (30+ system damage, no floatation or fire) back to pearl, or park it at Nomeau and hope the local bodyshop can patch her up in time?

My reason for asking is I am playing #7, which covers the period Aug through Dec '42. It is October and I've just sent Hornet back to pearl, and now find out that she won't be availible for another 120+ days. That pretty much guarantees I won't see her again. Did I do the right thing? [/B][/QUOTE]

To answer your first question, I don't believe there is any minimum speed in the game. Instead the critical factor is damage. If system + floatation damage is greater than 50, no aircraft can launch. If it is less, no problem.



Toro -> (8/6/2002 2:19:35 AM)

I take it the "speed of a CV" question relates to your CV which has been damaged, and hence can't go as fast. I haven't noticed any low speed preventing a/c from launching. After all, for this era a/c, they probably need only 30 knots of wind over deck (maybe less?) to launch, and that's not too difficult to find on the ocean. I believe a/c required a relatively low "airspeed" to launch, or therebouts, and they can provide most of that themselves.

I keep CVs with higher damage, as they're harder to replace. I agree with denisonh in that I'll park my damaged CV in a port and let her repair slowly, but be available in an emergency. Smaller ships (including cruisers and below) I'll send back with 25-30 sys dam. CVs have to be non-functional to send back (ie, 40-50+).



Kingfish -> (8/6/2002 11:40:57 PM)

A related question:

Can you modify the airwing of a carrier to better suit the assigned mission?

IOW, can I offload one of the attack squadrons and replace it with more fighters?



Luskan -> (8/7/2002 7:37:33 AM)

Be careful Kingfish! I did exactly that - and making sure that you only use either carrier squadrons, or marine squadrons (they will have aircraft that can fly from a carrier, ie. Wildcats, Hellcats, Corsairs(?) SBD, TBD, etc.). I'm not actually sure if you can operate any other sorts of aircraft from a carrier (CFS2 had p38s able to launch from a deck, but I think this is probably unrealistic since they were big, didn't have folding wings, etc.).

Remember - for some squadrons of carrier aircraft, when they arrive on the carrier there are 12 or 16 planes aboard - and that is as big as they get. But when you transfer those same squadrons to land, suddenly they swell to 24 or so planes (so you can't just put them back on in normal order). This doesn't happen all the time I might add, since my CVL squadron's didn't increase (I think) but my CV ones did!

Caused me enough numbers troubles to get my carriers back to a normal ops loadout that I've decided never to mess with it again . . . until next time I need to do it!



Toast Master -> Re: 30% is A good Rule of Thumb (8/8/2002 4:13:42 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by denisonh
[B]Unless the ship can benefit from weapon upgrades, I keep'em local at less than 30%.[/B][/QUOTE]

How can you tell if a weapon upgrade is possible?

Also, if you send a ship back to Japan or Pearl, does that increase the probability that other ships will be committed? Ie: Suppose my ship commitment probability is LOW and I send a crippled Shokaku back to Japan. Does that increase ship commitment probability to MODERATE or perhaps make it more likely that the lazy-a** skipper of the Zuikaku will end his vacation at the Kure yacht club and take a cruise to Truk? :D



denisonh -> US Initial Forces (8/8/2002 9:05:35 AM)

Any ship the US starts with will recieve an AA upgrade on it's first trip back. Look at the AA armament and you'll see 0.5 in MGs and 1.1 in MK1 guns.

Look at Pearl and the same class ships now have 40mm Bofors and 20mm Oerlikons.

Once you send them back, you can look on the availability screen. You will eventually see the ship you sent back with the new armament.

As the game progresses, it gets more difficult to tell, but I usually look at the ships listed at Pearl.

And that rule is more for all your initial starting ships with abysmal AA capabilities.



Toast Master -> (8/8/2002 9:19:33 AM)

Thanks for the clarification on US ship weapon upgrades. Do the Japanese also get similar upgrades?



Drongo -> (8/8/2002 9:26:38 AM)

[QUOTE]Also, if you send a ship back to Japan or Pearl, does that increase the probability that other ships will be committed? [/QUOTE]

Any ship (damaged or not) sent home will help improve the committment level. Someone else will know for sure but I think the committment level is based on points (either in theatre or home). Once a certain level is reached, the probability of ship release improves.

To my knowledge, sending a carrier home will not increase the specific chance of another carrier being released. It just helps with improving the chance that the routine will release ship(s) in general.

If I really want a particular ship or type, I'll normally do a huge cleanout of non vital ships in theatre in the hope of raising the level to HIGH (need to cross fingers as well, very important).



denisonh -> Japanese Upgrades (8/8/2002 9:33:52 AM)

Not sure, but I would check the ships back in Japan for ships of the same class and compare armament.

One of the grogs around here could probably give you a more details.



Toast Master -> (8/8/2002 9:37:28 AM)

Thanks Drongo. This is going to seriously change how I view keeping damaged ships in theater!



Toast Master -> (8/8/2002 9:46:12 AM)

And denisonh, if you are the person by the last name of Denison looking for PBEM players on Spooky's website, check your email. I just sent you a message to see if you'd be up for a game.



Drongo -> (8/8/2002 9:47:25 AM)

[QUOTE]Do the Japanese also get similar upgrades?[/QUOTE]

It implies it in the manual but I've played many times well into 43 as IJN and never seen it. I asked the same question in another thread and got the impression no one else had either. After Midway, the Japanese took every chance they got to improve the AA defence of their light forces (from pitiful to poor). I was surprised in UV by ships returning from Tokyo in 43 with the same armament as they started with.

Most discussions have centered around US AA armament in the forums. Would really like to find out what the go is with IJN upgrades. Maybe the resident forum ship guru (Ron Saueracker) could enlighten us.



Rainerle -> Help, Zuikaku is sinking !!! (8/13/2002 3:30:45 PM)

Hi folks

this is my first post but I've been following these threads for quite some time.
My Problem is, Zuikaku is limping home after taking some 1000 lb.
The Question is, should I go foe the nearest Port (Gasmata Level 1, 5 Hexes away) or Rabaul (Level 9, 7 Hexes away. Zuikaku does 4 knots and has already taken 88 Flt. damage, all fires have been put out and the last two turns she took 3 add. points to flt. damage each turn. So she needs three turns to Gasmata and four to Rabaul. If she still takes 3 more points each turn she will be at 97 at Gasmata and 100 at Rabaul (not good news, eh). So will sailing for Gasmata help me, will the leakage be stopped at such a small port, ahh I'm worried (heh, I'm really).
Any Advice appreciated !!!

Since we're at the topic:
Why are ships sinking in port considered sunk. I mean if they sink in port it should be possible to raise them one way or the other (they are not in deep water after all) ? Comments ?

Respectfully
Rainerle



strollen -> (8/13/2002 4:29:45 PM)

I don't think a level 1 port is worth stopping at. If you can get to Rabaul you maybe able to save her. It seems to me that a level 3 port is sort of the minimum that you need to stop flooding from getting worse.



Long Lance -> Re: Help, Zuikaku is sinking !!! (8/13/2002 6:42:46 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rainerle
[B]Hi folks

...My Problem is, Zuikaku is limping home after taking some 1000 lb. The Question is, should I go foe the nearest Port (Gasmata Level 1, 5 Hexes away) or Rabaul (Level 9, 7 Hexes away. Zuikaku does 4 knots and has already taken 88 Flt. damage, all fires have been put out and the last two turns she took 3 add. points to flt. damage each turn. So she needs three turns to Gasmata and four to Rabaul. If she still takes 3 more points each turn she will be at 97 at Gasmata and 100 at Rabaul (not good news, eh). So will sailing for Gasmata help me, will the leakage be stopped at such a small port, ahh I'm worried (heh, I'm really).
Any Advice appreciated !!!

Since we're at the topic:
Why are ships sinking in port considered sunk. I mean if they sink in port it should be possible to raise them one way or the other (they are not in deep water after all) ? Comments ?

Respectfully
Rainerle [/B][/QUOTE]

Poor Rainerle. Sorry, but your Zuikaku will be gone in 2 turns (99% probability). 88 Flt. Damage for Japanese Ships is nearly always lethal, except if they are already in port.

I agree with strollen, Gasmata will be no help to you.

Raising ships? Hmmm, I wouldn't like that. It leads to endless discussion like '...If I conquer Rabaul with the sunken Yamato in harbour, could I put it into service for the US...' and so on. Further on, shallow water is one aspect, the huge amounts of equipment needed some 1000 miles away from homebases is another.

No, keep it simple and stupid: Sunk actually is sunk. That's my opinion, surely none else needs to agree.



Rainerle -> Raising sunk ships ! (8/13/2002 9:37:06 PM)

Well o.k. I can agree on 'sunk is sunk' for UV but for WitP there have to be some rules. AFAIK several ships that were 'sunk' at Pearl Harbour were raised, repaired and sent into service. It might take a year or two but thats just natural istn't it ?

respectfully
Rainerle



Supervisor -> Re: Raising sunk ships ! (8/13/2002 9:51:44 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rainerle
[B]Well o.k. I can agree on 'sunk is sunk' for UV but for WitP there have to be some rules. AFAIK several ships that were 'sunk' at Pearl Harbour were raised, repaired and sent into service. It might take a year or two but thats just natural istn't it ?

respectfully
Rainerle [/B][/QUOTE]There's a whole long thread on that subject in the WitP forum. :D

Not up to the level of production threads there --- or the B17 threads here, either, but still quite respectable. :D :D :D



Kingfish -> (8/13/2002 10:04:35 PM)

Long Lance has a point, raising them is one thing, fixing them is quite another.

USS California took relatively light damage at Pearl (only two bombs) but it was enough to sink her, with only her superstructure above water.

They weren't able to raise her until March '42, and she didn't rejoin the fleet until June '44. And this is with the repairs being done at Puget sound, a facility far more secure and with more resources than anything on the UV map.



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