fuel to Oz question (Full Version)

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toselli -> fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 4:49:43 PM)


hi everyone,
I have a question regarding fuel movement to Australia. I was thinking of skipping the Pacific route entirely and haul fuel from Eastern Us to Cape Town and then Perth. I will use the West Coast to supply PH and central Pacific and Abadan to supply India.
The advantage I see is that most of this route is very safe and that, as ships do not use endurance in off map movement, I can use all the small and medium endurance tk from eastern US to Cape.
My question to more experienced Allied players is : do you think that this strategy is doable or will it be a logistic mistake?
Thanks a lot.



Terminus -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 4:55:14 PM)

Well, it'll take longer, and all the fuel will end up in one base (Perth) far away from most of the action that requires fuel.



khyberbill -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 4:56:27 PM)

In the early part of the war you get enough fuel in Abadan to supply India and Australia. However, after 1942, you will find that War in the South Pacific consumes lots of fuel and you will want the shortest route. Also by then you will have the naval assets needed to protect your tanker fleet.



topeverest -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 8:21:40 PM)

I see no need to use Off Map.

Agreed, Capetown cannot support Fuel needs of Oz once war starts going in Oz, but there will be ample supplies to push out (probably to Oz). After you plump up India area, you will have no other simple use for the fuel in Abadan than haul to Oz. Anticipate heavy fuel needs in Oz and push fuel from Western US. IMO carefully assign tankers to zones based on endourance and amount of fuel available to move. Put 'extra' tankers in western USA and use as needed. Also, in emergency, you can use your AK types to pull fuel at half efficiency.

The war will consume much more fuel than WITP. Dont underestimate how fast 200,000 points can be consumed by an active, naval war effort



cantona2 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 8:33:20 PM)

Set up a waystation about half way between WC and OZ. Long haul tankers carry fuel to waystation and unload. They then haul it back to WC. Mid range tankers then use the waystion as hub to ship fuel where it needs to go. Obviously the waystation needs to be garrisoned and have plenty of naval and aerial ASW assets.



Rob Brennan UK -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 8:48:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Set up a waystation about half way between WC and OZ. Long haul tankers carry fuel to waystation and unload. They then haul it back to WC. Mid range tankers then use the waystion as hub to ship fuel where it needs to go. Obviously the waystation needs to be garrisoned and have plenty of naval and aerial ASW assets.



and a maxed out port to avoid spoilage.



Buck Beach -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 9:18:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Set up a waystation about half way between WC and OZ. Long haul tankers carry fuel to waystation and unload. They then haul it back to WC. Mid range tankers then use the waystion as hub to ship fuel where it needs to go. Obviously the waystation needs to be garrisoned and have plenty of naval and aerial ASW assets.


Where would you suggest that these bases be located? Pearl and north island New Zealand ports are natural locations but none are even close to a halfway point. Other bases in between WC and Oz can only be built up to a max level 5.

I think that I would probably make it a 3 leg trip.



cantona2 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 9:27:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Set up a waystation about half way between WC and OZ. Long haul tankers carry fuel to waystation and unload. They then haul it back to WC. Mid range tankers then use the waystion as hub to ship fuel where it needs to go. Obviously the waystation needs to be garrisoned and have plenty of naval and aerial ASW assets.


Where would you suggest that these bases be located? Pearl and north island New Zealand ports are natural locations but none are even close to a halfway point. Other bases in between WC and Oz can only be built up to a max level 5.

I think that I would probably make it a 3 leg trip.



Ill PM you where i have mine not to give intell to my PBEM opponents [:D]



topeverest -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 10:13:18 PM)

Seek bases that can store an unlimited amount of fuel and supply. That will narrow it down considerably. you probably can get it from there.



khyberbill -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/19/2010 11:12:02 PM)

quote:

ther bases in between WC and Oz can only be built up to a max level 5.

5 is enough if you build up the AF to at least 4. Use long legged tankers (>10,000) to get to this waypoint and then short legged tankers to distribute to where the fuel is needed.



wdolson -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 12:43:31 PM)

Pago Pago can be built up to be spoilage free, though unless you put a lot of naval support there, loading and unloading is probably going to be slow.

The 12000+ endurance tankers can make Australia in a direct run, though they will have to load some of their cargo for the return trip from Australia.  You could run some long hauls from LA to Australia at the start and then use your shorter haul tankers to move fuel to Pearl Harbor.  You can probably make two or three round trips to Pearl with the short haul tankers while the long hauls are on one trip to Australia.  Next trip, return the long haul tankers to Pearl and load them for the next trip there. 

It isn't half way, but you have cut more than a week round trip to LA for your long haul tankers and the short hauls can probably stay ahead of demand at Pearl from the long haul tankers.  After a few months you'll probably have 1 million fuel at Pearl which is the largest port outside the continental North America in the eastern half of the Pacific and it's built up at the beginning of the game, so once the port is repaired from the Japanese attack, you don't have to tie down any engineers building a fuel depot.

Bill



EUBanana -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 12:52:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach


quote:

ORIGINAL: cantona2

Set up a waystation about half way between WC and OZ. Long haul tankers carry fuel to waystation and unload. They then haul it back to WC. Mid range tankers then use the waystion as hub to ship fuel where it needs to go. Obviously the waystation needs to be garrisoned and have plenty of naval and aerial ASW assets.


Where would you suggest that these bases be located? Pearl and north island New Zealand ports are natural locations but none are even close to a halfway point. Other bases in between WC and Oz can only be built up to a max level 5.

I think that I would probably make it a 3 leg trip.


OPSEC forbids me to say. [:D]



Sardaukar -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 1:00:32 PM)

I bring fuel to Suva from LA & Panama (when available in sufficient numbers) and to Perth from Cape Town. From Suva/Perth I shuttle fuel where it's needed. Shorter-range tankers evacuated from DEI etc. are good for the shuttle-thing. There are usually also enough small short-range ASW escorts available to keep subs at bay.



moonraker65 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 1:17:04 PM)

I use off map. I have a 10 TK CS Convoy running constantly at present between the Eastern US and Cape Town. I then shuttle between Cape Town and Adelaide. The Road/Rail Network from Perth is no good so Adelaide is a much better bet and can be built up to a reasonable sized port. I also shuttle supplies to Adelaide from CT in 4 CS Convoys thereby keeping Oz nicely topped up. Abadan I only use for India and Aden although I have just started shuttling fuel from Colombo to CT to keep as constant a flow as possible. Later on the supply convoys arriving at CT bring Fuel and Supplies so the need to go Off Map from the East Coast diminishes and those TK's can then be redirected to more needy areas. Depends what scenario you're playiong and personal preference. I'm playing Juan's Enhanced CV variant and there's no way I could've gone West Coast because the Japs went a lot further South than normal although once I re-took Noumea, Luganville and started to build up Ndeni I then started moving stuff direct across from the WC. Even my reinforcements had to go Off Map due to the scale of Jap activity in the first part of '42.



castor troy -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 1:50:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I bring fuel to Suva from LA & Panama (when available in sufficient numbers) and to Perth from Cape Town. From Suva/Perth I shuttle fuel where it's needed. Shorter-range tankers evacuated from DEI etc. are good for the shuttle-thing. There are usually also enough small short-range ASW escorts available to keep subs at bay.



does your fuel stay in Perth? I once tried to use Perth as a fuel depot, but it didnīt take long and it was all sucked into Australiaīs HI.



amatteucci -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 1:58:25 PM)

BTW, is it possible to move fuel, by land, from Perth to Sydney?



Sardaukar -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 2:18:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I bring fuel to Suva from LA & Panama (when available in sufficient numbers) and to Perth from Cape Town. From Suva/Perth I shuttle fuel where it's needed. Shorter-range tankers evacuated from DEI etc. are good for the shuttle-thing. There are usually also enough small short-range ASW escorts available to keep subs at bay.



does your fuel stay in Perth? I once tried to use Perth as a fuel depot, but it didnīt take long and it was all sucked into Australiaīs HI.


For some reason, it does stay there. I wish it'd get sucked to Sydney, for example, but no. Also, in DaBabes scenario I am playing recently, Perth is requesting 85 000 fuel..and I cannot figure why.



Don D -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 2:18:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

BTW, is it possible to move fuel, by land, from Perth to Sydney?


Vs. the AI it seems that somewhere between 100-200k will stay in Perth and the most of the rest will end up in Sydney after a while. I assume in PBEM getting huge amounts to Perth would be a lot harder but it would do the same thing once it's there.



moonraker65 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 3:06:29 PM)

I used Perth at first but found that not much seemed to get moved for the reasons I stated above. Adelaide is a far better option because it's situated on a main rail and road route that connects to the HI in the rest of Australia.



Buck Beach -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 4:15:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Pago Pago can be built up to be spoilage free, though unless you put a lot of naval support there, loading and unloading is probably going to be slow.

The 12000+ endurance tankers can make Australia in a direct run, though they will have to load some of their cargo for the return trip from Australia.  You could run some long hauls from LA to Australia at the start and then use your shorter haul tankers to move fuel to Pearl Harbor.  You can probably make two or three round trips to Pearl with the short haul tankers while the long hauls are on one trip to Australia.  Next trip, return the long haul tankers to Pearl and load them for the next trip there. 

It isn't half way, but you have cut more than a week round trip to LA for your long haul tankers and the short hauls can probably stay ahead of demand at Pearl from the long haul tankers.  After a few months you'll probably have 1 million fuel at Pearl which is the largest port outside the continental North America in the eastern half of the Pacific and it's built up at the beginning of the game, so once the port is repaired from the Japanese attack, you don't have to tie down any engineers building a fuel depot.

Bill



I think even the 9800 endurance ships can make Brisbane from Pearl (even with way points) and back without a top off of fuel.



Sredni -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 5:35:17 PM)

I've got like 10 xAK groups running fuel to perth from cape town in CS mode. Perth seems to hold onto 100k or so (and that's just because I have a bunch of ships docked there) and the rest spreads out to the rest of OZ easily.

I tested once where I had a billion ships in perth, and thus millions of fuel. I moved all the ships out to sea for a turn and all it took was a single day for all of that fuel to spread to the rest of OZ.

There is no limit to fuel flow from perth to the rest of OZ. If you're having problems with perth holding onto fuel then just move the ships docked at perth somewhere else.


I use my TK's with escorts to move fuel to PH and from PH to way stations like pago pago, suva, and mainly at this point noumea. Once the front moves I'll move where I store the bulk of my fuel. Rabaul looks to be the next place I'll stage from. All you need is a base that can be built up to 10 combined port/airfield (might be 9, not sure) and you have unlimited storage. A better base would be one with a bigger port of course for ease of offloading.



moonraker65 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 7:41:48 PM)

I'll stick with Adelaide. It's nearer to where I want the Fuel and Supplies to go to once they're offloaded.



Mistmatz -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 10:19:32 PM)

Generally allied TK don't have the legs to make a run from the East coast to Australia in one go. Especially if you have to take a reroute, eg Noumea, Suva or Pago Pago taken by the japanese.

So either you build up a hub for redistribution, which means the aforementioned problems regarding spoilage and/or slow unload/load times, or you let your TK refuel underway.

For the latter I'd use a few of the less valuable oilers (slow and/or short legged) and send them to a meeting point mid-ocean but preferably under your air cover and let your convoys refuel there. The imho big advantage is you save about 2-5 days unloading/reloading and don't use up port handling capacity. The disadvantage is there might be some additional micromanagment needed.

PS: If the waypoint system had say five waypoints rather than three, a much more sophisticated refueling scheme could be set up while still running the convoys out of harms way. With the current three waypoints I find it too dangerous in my game (Noumea taken) to use one of them as refuel stop and loose routing flexibility. So if there ever will be a WitP 2, I hope for more waypoints. [8D]



crsutton -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 10:27:16 PM)

You will have a major surplus of AK in 1942. I have use three very large convoys of AKs to shuttle fuel between the East Coast And Cape Town. If not, you may find yourself running short in Capetown. I use Capetown to feed Perth on occasion but mostly as a reserve for the DEI campaign to come later.

Otherwise,  as said here, ship from the West Coast.     



John Lansford -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/20/2010 10:33:19 PM)

I use Tarawa and Willis Island as waypoints for my fuel shipments.  Tarawa supports CentPac, while Willis Island supports SWPac.  Willis is closer to the front than Pago Pago, and I can ship from there to Oz as easily as I can to Lunga.  Kavieng is rapidly becoming my forward base for SWPac though, and it's close enough to Tarawa that I can ship fuel from there to Kavieng, leaving Willis to ship fuel to Oz.



moonraker65 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/21/2010 9:13:46 AM)

Way too dangerous. I wouldn't go anywhere near those areas until I have at least some Air Cover present which at the moment I don't. I had to retake Noumea and Luganville and have only just got reasonable Marine Corps Air Units there but they will be needed for the Solomons. So I guess I'll stick with Off Map for now.



John Lansford -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/21/2010 12:07:22 PM)

moonraker,

I'm halfway through 1943 by now, but back in 1942 I was using Pago Pago for all my supply and fuel needs.  It was far enough east that the IJN didn't come raiding (they never advanced past Luganville, which I retook quickly), and with enough waypoints I could ship fuel from Pearl there as well.

Currently the AI holds Kwajalein and Roi-Namur but nothing else in the CentPac east of Truk, and I've advanced to Wewak and Sarmi on New Guinea.  The last major IJN warship I saw was a CA near Davao, and all his major early war CV's are reefs. 



vinnie71 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/21/2010 12:13:03 PM)

I use a different variant. Short legged convoys are sent from Los Angeles to Christmas Islands (which can be expanded to level 4 port). Then I have my TKs split in 2 unequal convoys, one fast (16) one medium (14) speed. The first is essentially a kind of rapid reaction force and reaches those areas where fuel is needed while the latter is the heavy weight and reasonably fast, and is usually destined for Sydney. I chose Christmas Island because its below the radar for Jap subs and can easily have overlapping ASW coverage from nearby islands as well (Palmyra and another island).

Extra AK convoys with fuel go to either PH or Christmas Island depending on percieved need. It should be noted that Canton Island is vital for this route since it is the shield that protects the whole chain. other bases like Suva, Pago Pago and Noumoea are expanded only as required and in the interest of saving ships in distress. Again I try to push north to take over Ndeni (Lunga would be better but I'm always too late) as quickly as possible to focus the attention there. I also react rapidly to any Japanese attempt to take over Fanufati etc, since its easy to extend air recon from that area. Also I'm finding it very convenient to station US 19000 carriers along this axis for the first months in order to frustrate Japanese landings, while being able to repair them in Sydney. Obviously at least 2 repleneshment convoys are also organised in support for their operations.

I also usually have Brit Convoys coming either from Cape Town or Colombo. A fast convoy of mixed AKs and TKs (16-17 speed range) is the main hauler and I usually direct it through the Cocos Islands to either Darwin or Perth. Slower convoys of mixed AKs and TKs (14) are also sent along this way. The surviving Dutch and slow Brit Aks and Tks (12) are usually the cargo haulers from Cape Town as well. Now that I'm trying to hold Java, Darwin has become even more important as the short legged supply convoys can operate a short route in Soerbaja/Tiljap (ok you know the base I'm referring to![:D]).

I'm not sure that one needs taht much fuel in Oz, except to use it as a logistics base for offensives in DEI and Solomons. Also a lot of oil (crude) extracted from DEI and possibly other locations, goes a long way to supply the needs of Australia proper and I make it a point to move as much as possible in the first weeks or so, before the KB comes knocking.  



moonraker65 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/21/2010 1:18:02 PM)

Oz does need fuel for it's HI. Hence why I've got 2 CS Convoys with a 3rd about to be sent to Colombo from spare ships in Brisbane that I'd moved earlier. If you don't keep Oz supplied then you don't get the Aircraft that are built there. Which certainly comes in handy for later moves in New Guinea and beyond. I use Adelaide for all Supply/Fuel drop offs as it's well connected transport wise. As I said it's down to personal preference and the scenario. Juan's WNT Enhanced CV variant (46) is certainly the hardest I've played against the AI so far as the Japs start off with more punch making life harder for the Allies early on.



vinnie71 -> RE: fuel to Oz question (7/21/2010 6:02:43 PM)

Are you sure that if Australian HI isn't working, the ACs aren't produced? This is the first time I've heard it since I thought that HI in Australia can actually be shut down since all HI produced by Allies on map is cumulative....



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