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doomtrader -> Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 2:23:11 AM)

Today is 1st of August.
66 years ago at 5 PM CET Warsaw Uprising has started. Sirens all over the country will scream at 5 PM.

Thousands of young man and woman fought for freedom of their beloved city.
They were fighting for the freedom of whole nation.

They fought and lost.

63 days of fights brought over two hundred thousands of deaths and completely destroyed one of the largest European cities.

Red Army was watched as the city is bleeding out. They not only didn't helped, but also forbid Allies planes with supply to land on soviet airfields.

If you are interested in more information about Warsaw Uprising, please take a look at those links:
http://www.warsawuprising.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising


Please honor those deaths with a moment of silence.



quote:

Go, passer-by, and tell the world
That we perished in the cause,
Faithful to our orders.



itchy01ca -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 2:36:00 AM)

No, the red army did not just watch. The red army sent soldiers in to help, but at the time they were not in a strategically favourable position to move against the german army. The red army did not just "stop on the gates of warsaw" as some (mostly american) historians have said. Yes, they were close, but not close enough to make a push that would have taken days to undertake and thousands of lives. I feel for the polish but trying to blame the russians for it is doing a disservice to the Red army and what THEY had to accomplish in world war 2. NO OTHER ARMY or country in the history of the world has ever taken the casualties they did and still destroyed its enemies in the end. Please don't try to blame them. That is rewriting history. 



Tomokatu -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 4:18:39 AM)

The Polish Home Army was destroyed through the failure of the Red Army to support them.

I have great respect for the achievements of the Red Army of Workers and Peasants but the Soviet Government definitely wanted to eliminate Poland as a separate nation and return it to the status of a province of the Russian Empire which it had been for about 200 years.

It was tried in 1921 by Tuchachevsky who was beaten off. It had been a Russian objective for a long while.



warspite1 -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 6:38:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Today is 1st of August.
66 years ago at 5 PM CET Warsaw Uprising has started. Sirens all over the country will scream at 5 PM.

Thousands of young man and woman fought for freedom of their beloved city.
They were fighting for the freedom of whole nation.

They fought and lost.

63 days of fights brought over two hundred thousands of deaths and completely destroyed one of the largest European cities.

Red Army was watched as the city is bleeding out. They not only didn't helped, but also forbid Allies planes with supply to land on soviet airfields.

If you are interested in more information about Warsaw Uprising, please take a look at those links:
http://www.warsawuprising.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising


Please honor those deaths with a moment of silence.



quote:

Go, passer-by, and tell the world
That we perished in the cause,
Faithful to our orders.


Warspite1

WWII is just full of sad stories, but within that, the fate of Poland is especially sad. I am enourmously grateful to the Poles that fought with us in that war - with the RAF (in particular the Battle of Britain and Bomber Command), the navy (including the merchant sailors) and the army troops that fought in the Western Desert, Italy and North-West Europe. The fact that after all the Poles suffering they simply went from one nutter regime into the hands of another, is tragic.

I do not know the details of the Warsaw uprising but the consensus seems to be that the Red Army could have helped and chose not to. Given what happened in Katyn Wood and other such episodes, it does not require a great leap of faith to believe this was the case.

Thanks for the post - I will certainly spare a thought for those that rose up today [&o]



Anraz -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 11:03:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 441.tfs.caf

No, the red army did not just watch. The red army sent soldiers in to help, but at the time they were not in a strategically favourable position to move against the german army. The red army did not just "stop on the gates of warsaw" as some (mostly american) historians have said. Yes, they were close, but not close enough to make a push that would have taken days to undertake and thousands of lives. I feel for the polish but trying to blame the russians for it is doing a disservice to the Red army and what THEY had to accomplish in world war 2. NO OTHER ARMY or country in the history of the world has ever taken the casualties they did and still destroyed its enemies in the end. Please don't try to blame them. That is rewriting history.


"Original" history was written by those who were victorious. Do you believe that it was fairly written?

Part of Soviet Army on the other side of Warsaw were Polish troops within pupet Polish Peoples Army commanded by general Berling who was dismissed by Soviets because he had sent Polish troop to the other side of river to help Homy Army during uprising. In fact it is an exmple of soviet help and activity during the uprising.
And regarding German troops in Warsaw there were troop of secondary quality... ( but obviously still much better then equipped then partisans). Strategic positions of the Soviet army in this case is very useful smokescreen to hide political reasons.



Dixie -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 11:57:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anraz

quote:

ORIGINAL: 441.tfs.caf

No, the red army did not just watch. The red army sent soldiers in to help, but at the time they were not in a strategically favourable position to move against the german army. The red army did not just "stop on the gates of warsaw" as some (mostly american) historians have said. Yes, they were close, but not close enough to make a push that would have taken days to undertake and thousands of lives. I feel for the polish but trying to blame the russians for it is doing a disservice to the Red army and what THEY had to accomplish in world war 2. NO OTHER ARMY or country in the history of the world has ever taken the casualties they did and still destroyed its enemies in the end. Please don't try to blame them. That is rewriting history.


"Original" history was written by those who were victorious. Do you believe that it was fairly written?

Part of Soviet Army on the other side of Warsaw were Polish troops within pupet Polish Peoples Army commanded by general Berling who was dismissed by Soviets because he had sent Polish troop to the other side of river to help Homy Army during uprising. In fact it is an exmple of soviet help and activity during the uprising.
And regarding German troops in Warsaw there were troop of secondary quality... ( but obviously still much better then equipped then partisans). Strategic positions of the Soviet army in this case is very useful smokescreen to hide political reasons.



Just because the Soviets took heavy casualties during the war doesn't make them nice people...

I was in Warsaw a couple of weeks ago, although I don't understand Polish there did appear to be quite a few monuments to the uprising.



Terminus -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 12:49:18 PM)

I think it's pretty clear who's the historical revisionist on this thread...



rickier65 -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 7:56:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Today is 1st of August.
66 years ago at 5 PM CET Warsaw Uprising has started. Sirens all over the country will scream at 5 PM.


Please honor those deaths with a moment of silence.



Thank you for the post. I did not realize that it started on Aug1. I will indeed honor the Polish people with a moment of silence.

Thanks
rick



06 Maestro -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 10:07:58 PM)

The Polish Underground Army was completely loyal to the legitimate Government in Exile (in London). This made that organization an enemy of the USSR-what better way to eliminate it than have the Germans do it for them. The Soviets actually encouraged the uprising to occur-before they halted. Real Politic at its best. When in doubt, ask "who profits?"

The Polish effort should never be forgotten.



JamesM -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 11:47:55 PM)

I see that no one has mentioned Stalin's name here.  From my reading of history it seems that he had the greatest part to play in failing to have effective help get to the underground army.  His basic distrust of everyone that he could not control seemed to govern a lot of his thinking when dealing with people and organizations.   He appeared to live under the philosophy that an enemy or perceived enemy was to be eliminated.  The legitimate Polish Government in Exile was a perceived enemy because it interfered with his plans to have countries with governments that the Soviets could control as buffer states.



warspite1 -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/1/2010 11:57:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jamesm

I see that no one has mentioned Stalin's name here.  From my reading of history it seems that he had the greatest part to play in failing to have effective help get to the underground army.  His basic distrust of everyone that he could not control seemed to govern a lot of his thinking when dealing with people and organizations.   He appeared to live under the philosophy that an enemy or perceived enemy was to be eliminated.  The legitimate Polish Government in Exile was a perceived enemy because it interfered with his plans to have countries with governments that the Soviets could control as buffer states.

Warspite1

I think when anyone is talking about strategic and other major decisions of the Soviet Army in WWII, it is accepted that they are talking about decisions made by Stalin and his cronies. There is simply no way a local Red army commander would have made a decision on assisting the uprising without the seal of approval from Uncle Joe.



gunny -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/2/2010 12:21:22 AM)

What 06 Maestro said is recorded in various historical text as fact.

@441.tfs.ca: Wrong! The Warsaw rebels were viewed as an armed threat to the soviet union.



Joe D. -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/2/2010 12:46:24 AM)

If memory still serves me, re the documentary The World at War, the Soviets actually encouraged the uprising, only to prove less than helpful when it was executed, even to the point of denying the other Allies the use of their airstrips for re-supply into the city.



Obsolete -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/2/2010 2:19:52 AM)

quote:

The red army sent soldiers in to help...


Ohh sure, this was the same sort of HELP that they did when sending tanks into the Ukraine to push the axis out?  I just find it a bit strange that you are SUPPOSED to be from Poland...

* Edit. Never mind, I see it was the POLISH guy that got it right. My bad.



SlickWilhelm -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/2/2010 3:49:28 PM)

Btw, if anyone wants to see a very good film about the Warsaw uprising, check out Andrzej Wajda's Kanal.



Phatguy -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/2/2010 5:21:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 441.tfs.caf

No, the red army did not just watch. The red army sent soldiers in to help, but at the time they were not in a strategically favourable position to move against the german army. The red army did not just "stop on the gates of warsaw" as some (mostly american) historians have said. Yes, they were close, but not close enough to make a push that would have taken days to undertake and thousands of lives. I feel for the polish but trying to blame the russians for it is doing a disservice to the Red army and what THEY had to accomplish in world war 2. NO OTHER ARMY or country in the history of the world has ever taken the casualties they did and still destroyed its enemies in the end. Please don't try to blame them. That is rewriting history. 


It was the Polish troops under Soviet command who attempted to help..The regular Soviet army stood by.. The Soviet High Command i.e. Stalin did not allow US bombers to refuel and use Soviet bases behind the lines to help the Poles.

Yes, I am biased...My mother,uncle and grandmother lived through the Warsaw Uprising.Sadly my grandfather died fighting there.....



wosung -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/2/2010 5:56:16 PM)

Arguably no other people suffered more in WW 2 than the Polish people, given the tall percentage of dead of it’s overall population (with Russians and Chinese following next).

Arguably Warsaw was the European city destroyed to the utmost degree in that war (with Manilla suffering a similar fate in the Pacific).

So those all those deads and the said uprising really should be remembered.

Remembering is not only about the past, but also about the later and present perception of the past. Thus national tragedies like Katyn and the Second Warsaw uprising (first was in the Ghetto) were highly sensitive (non-)events in communist Poland, because they defined Polands relation towards its socialist “brother” state in the East. And they continue to be the proud Polish nation’s key events, now symbolizing the costs of liberty and Poland’s relations towards it’s larger neigbours East and West.

As with other national key events elsewhere in the world the Warsaw uprising doesn’t seem to be undisputed in present Poland, some hailing it as national symbol, some criticizing it as pointless symbol, weakening the Polish elite even more and thus influencing Poland’s later communist fate.

Last not least a side note about the Red Army and the Warsaw uprising.

It rather seems that end of July 1944 the advanced Red Army units after the destruction of German Army Group Centre hastily were ordered to capture Warsaw at all cost - without regard to their flanks and their logistical situation. Stalin’s rationale was to bag a future prize – exactly without any annoying attempt of Polish self-liberation.

But this politically motivated military thrust failed miserably, resulting in the widely unknown tank battle of Warsaw: From August 1st to 4th 1944 the remnants of four German panzer divisions ( 19th, Hermann Göring, Wiking and 4th ) with some 223 Panzer and 54 assault guns under Model consecutively attacked northeast of Warsaw in order to protect Wehrmacht’s logistical centre there. In the cauldron of Radzymin, Wolomin and Okuniew, they bagged and destroyed the 3rd Soviet Tank Corps (Aleksej Ivanovic Radzievskij) and other parts of 2nd Tank Army, badly mauled it’s 8th and 16th Tank Corps plus the 8th Guard Tank Corps. Some 550 Soviet tanks were destroyed.

This tank battle probably diminished Red Army’s real and potential chances of reaching Warsaw. But trying it did, albeit not exactly to help the inhabitants of Warsaw.

Regards



EisenHammer -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/2/2010 8:36:07 PM)

Yep… It looks like the main reason why the Russian didn't take Warsaw in early August of 44 is because the Germans send in massive reinforcements into the area and the Russian were also at the end of a 300 mile supply line. The Russian original plan of July 28 was to take Warsaw from the North and the South and avoid an direct attack on the city. The Northern part of the attack was stop around Wolomin, and the southern one at Magnuszew.



SLAAKMAN -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/2/2010 10:24:35 PM)

I dedicate one minute of silence to honor the Polish martyrs.

quote:

Yep… It looks like the main reason why the Russian didn't take Warsaw in early August of 44 is because the Germans send in massive reinforcements into the area and the Russian were also at the end of a 300 mile supply line. The Russian original plan of July 28 was to take Warsaw from the North and the South and avoid an direct attack on the city. The Northern part of the attack was stop around Wolomin, and the southern one at Magnuszew.

Stalin, a sadistic Communist despot made little or no effort to link with or support the Poles and no doubt gloated when it was crushed just as he gloated when the Nazis crushed France in 1940, a cozy little arrangement engineered by the Nazi-Soviet Non-Agression Pact. Only the Soviets knew for certain who murdered the thousands of Polish officers at Katyn Wood at that stage of the war in 1944 so please do not marginalize the deaths of Freedom-Fighters with biased agendas and political apologetics.



EisenHammer -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 12:45:46 AM)

The way some of you post on this thread, you'll think that the Germans were the good guys and the Russian were the ones who totally flatten Warsaw and killed 200.000 poles.[8|]
Some of yall need to get ride of your 1950s history books.



SLAAKMAN -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 1:08:30 AM)

quote:

The way some of you post on this thread, you'll think that the Germans were the good guys and the Russian were the ones who totally flatten Warsaw and killed 200.000 poles.
Some of yall need to get ride of your 1950s history books.

Nothing is more dangerous than an enemy posing as an ally.



t001001001 -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 1:17:21 AM)

Nothing is more dangerous than an enemy posing as an ally.

The CSLF is even more dangerous than that. 



SLAAKMAN -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 1:19:08 AM)

quote:

The CSLF is even more dangerous than that.


ARM YOURSELF EGGLAYER AND COME OUT OF YOUR TRENCH BEFORE I DROP A BERLIN BATTLE ON YOUR BEAK!! [:@]



t001001001 -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 1:27:25 AM)

Since when is the CSLF intimidated by your hollow threats?



SLAAKMAN -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 1:32:48 AM)

THE CSLF CAN NEVER FEAR WHILE IT COWERS IN THE OUTHOUSE UNTIL THE RAT-DUNG FALLS ON ITS PUNY BIRDBRAIN.
[:'(]
ITS HIGH NOON AND WHERE IS THAT CHICKEN-WHIPPEN THAT IS SO HIGHLY REVERED?! I LONG FOR COMBAT!!



t001001001 -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 1:48:57 AM)

I've killed you so many times in so many different ways in so many different games, I'm getting bored w/ it.

Go ahead and ship me a broodwar disc so can beat you in that too [>:]






SLAAKMAN -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 1:54:30 AM)

DO I HAVE SUCKER WRITTEN ON MY FOREHEAD U SILLY FOWL? YOU KNOW WHERE TO ORDER THE GAME SO GET OFF THAT NEST AND GRAB IT U BUZZARD POSER!! [:'(]



Obsolete -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 9:09:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

The way some of you post on this thread, you'll think that the Germans were the good guys and the Russian were the ones who totally flatten Warsaw and killed 200.000 poles.[8|]
Some of yall need to get ride of your 1950s history books.



Did not the Germans have a right to re-claim their lands which had been taken away in similar fashion? What right did the Russians have in plowing through the back-door to grab the other half?



Joe D. -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 1:21:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer

The way some of you post on this thread, you'll think that the Germans were the good guys ... Some of yall need to get ride of your 1950s history books.


And watch Tom Cruise in "Valkyrie"; I've seen it on Showtime, which has been playing it 24/7 here for months.

You can't tell the good Germans from the bad ones w/o a script from United Artists.



EisenHammer -> RE: Warsaw Uprising (8/3/2010 4:11:27 PM)

lol... At showtime.
showing the same movie over and over how many times do you need to see the same movie.



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