Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (Full Version)

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CarlG2 -> Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 3:28:55 AM)

Hey all,

After a long absence from TOAW, I picked up playing again recently and have been trying my hand at Campaign for South Vietnam with the 3.4 Public Beta (the changes in 3.4 are awesome, by the way...finally, no more VC units annihilating Allied air units with slingshots...)

I am noticing, however, that Guerrilla units are invisibile all the time no matter the visibility status of the hex they are in. Is this the way it is supposed to be or am I experiencing a bug?

For example, I happen to find an invisible Guerrilla unit (usually by moving a hex and then moving my cursor around the unit and seeing if the cursor changes to an attack graphic, moving a hex, moving cursor, etc....WAY tedious...) I then surround it with units, have "Spotted" status for the hex the Guerrilla unit is in, and it remains invisible. Even after attacking it, it remains invisible (assuming it didn't evaporate, of course). About the only time I have a displayed Guerrilla icon on my screen is if the unit Retreats Before Combat or briefly during the AI player's turn while it is moving (after which it immediately becomes invisible again.)

Perhaps related, the old patch notes from 3.2 state:

7. Guerrilla units should now be properly invisible if not moving and the hex is not 'seen'.

In addition to my question above about the possibility of this being a bug, perhaps I dont' understand what 'seen' means. Can anyone provide any clarification? If interested, I have many save games from this scenario where I have surrounded invisible Guerrilla units that remain invisibile turn after turn of being in a Spotted hex.

I am playing with the following, perhaps relevant Advanced Options:

Fog of War: On
No Borders: On
Advanced Rules: On

Lastly, does anyone else have the same experience?

Thanks and good gaming,
Carl G.



ralphtricky -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 3:41:22 AM)

Carl,
Can you post a save and a hex where it happens please?

Thanks,
Ralph



CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:04:12 AM)

Hi Ralph,

Thanks for the fast reply! I'd be happy to upload a save game from just before I found the unit and just after I surrounded it. However, each of the save game files are > 200 KB (each one is 356 KB pre-zip, 237 KB post-zip). Both this forum and the Support sub-forum limit uploads to 200 KB.

Any other way I can get them to you?

Thanks!
Carl G.



ralphtricky -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:15:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarlG2

Hi Ralph,

Thanks for the fast reply! I'd be happy to upload a save game from just before I found the unit and just after I surrounded it. However, each of the save game files are > 200 KB (each one is 356 KB pre-zip, 237 KB post-zip). Both this forum and the Support sub-forum limit uploads to 200 KB.

Any other way I can get them to you?

Thanks!
Carl G.

Carl,
Can you please email it to me at ralphtrickey (at) operationalwarfare (dot) com?

I think I need to say that if you're adjacent to a unit on the other side, the unit is visible, but I've got to look through the code more thoroughly..

Thanks,
Ralph



ralphtricky -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:33:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
I think I need to say that if you're adjacent to a unit on the other side, the unit is visible, but I've got to look through the code more thoroughly..

I also need to fix that cursor, I don't want artillery or aircraft to be able to find them by a bug. ;)



CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:35:39 AM)

Hi Ralph,

Save games are on their way.

Thanks for taking a look at it!
Carl G.



ralphtricky -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:43:27 AM)

I'm pretty sure it's one of those silly things.

In the spot code, I say that if the hex you're looking at is all guerillas, then the hex is noticed, not seen.
In the map display code, I say that if the hex you're looking at is all guerillas, then they will be shown only if the hex is seen.

<DOH>





CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:46:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
I also need to fix that cursor, I don't want artillery or aircraft to be able to find them by a bug. ;)


I actually wasn't even exploiting that trick...I was just moving a land unit a hex and then circling it with the move cursor to see if any adjacent hexes showed the attack symbol. That's the only way I can find guerrilla units since even when adjacent they don't become visible for me... :(

Well...I guess I also knew I had come across one because continuing to move to another adjacent hex would incur a disengagement movement point cost... [8|]




CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:57:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

I'm pretty sure it's one of those silly things.

In the spot code, I say that if the hex you're looking at is all guerillas, then the hex is noticed, not seen.
In the map display code, I say that if the hex you're looking at is all guerillas, then they will be shown only if the hex is seen.

<DOH>





Ha, I was wondering if that is what it was because I just did some more testing and I found that when I moved a unit, the adjacent hexes would become spotted...unless there was a guerrilla unit in it! [:D] Which got me wondering what the rules were in the code for displaying a guerrilla unit (i.e. does "seen" = "spotted" in reference to my earlier question about what does "seen" mean.) So, if it's impossible for non Theater Recon to make a hex with a guerrilla unit in it become "spotted", then they can never be "seen". [:)]

Thanks again for looking into it and thanks for the outstanding support!

One possible wrinkle, though...I did in an earlier turn move an RVN Navy River Force unit and was able to discover a single guerrilla unit when I moved adjacent to it... I will say, though, that is the only time I recall in my playing of this scenario over the last few days that I was able to discover a guerrilla unit and have its icon appear on the map (other than those that showed up through, I believe, Theater Recon because they were off in Cambodia far away from any of my units.) Since it was from a naval unit, perhaps the spotting code is a little different in this case?

If I have the Save Game from where that happened, I'll send it on.

Thanks,
Carl G.

EDIT: Added "I recall" since I went back through some save games and I did see guerrilla icons a few times...however, as I noted in a post below, they were always on river hexes in the Mekong Delta area of South Vietnam.



CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 5:30:52 AM)

EDIT: See post #17 below. The fact that the Guerrilla unit was on a river hex is not why it became visible. It was because it had moved in the previous turn. My test cases were flawed when I thought it had something to do with the river hex. Further testing showed how the system was actually working.

Hi Ralph,

I sent you another save game showing a condition that explains why my RVN Navy Force Unit was able to make a guerrilla unit become visible. It appears that a guerrilla unit that is on a river hex does become visible when a friendly unit moves adjacent to it. In my save game I sent, the guerrilla at 59,135 becomes visible when I move the RVN Navy Force unit adjacent to it. It also becomes visible on a reload of the save game if I move any other friendly, land unit adjacent. I did notice, though, that the hex becomes Spotted in this case. This would seem to prove your statement above about how guerrilla units only display when their hex becomes Spotted. (EDIT: I tried this a few more times and the hex does not always become Spotted in this case, sometimes it stays Observed yet the guerrilla still becomes visible...something else is going on here with river hexes that is causing the guerrilla units to become visible when on a river hex and a friendly unit moves adjacent.)

I went through some other save games, turned off Fog of War to see where the VC were hanging out, and was able to prove the above discovery over and over again (i.e. guerrilla units on river hexes function as intended and become visible when a friendly unit moves adjacent.) Not sure what is special about river hexes, but something is different. [&:]

Thanks!
Carl G.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 3:51:02 PM)

This was how it was in 3.2. Nobody complained till now. What's wrong with guerillas always being invisible?



jmlima -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:21:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

This was how it was in 3.2. Nobody complained till now. What's wrong with guerillas always being invisible?


Question is, when do the guerillas become visible in 3.4?



CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 4:50:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

This was how it was in 3.2. Nobody complained till now. What's wrong with guerillas always being invisible?


Please understand that my post is a question and observation, not a complaint. I've lurked these forums for years and been playing TOAW since Norm released the first edition (well, since before then as I did some playtesting for Norm and others at Talonsoft back in the day and still fondly recall Norm's precursor operational games to the TOAW series.) I value TOAW as one of the best computer wargames ever created...I'm just trying to help where I saw something not working consistently and possibly not as designed.

I'll admit I haven't played TOAW much in the last few years, though (I don't think I played more than a scenario or two since 3.2)...came back due to all the greatness combined in 3.4 and also because an A10 pilot friend and fellow grognard of mine that I recently reconnected with wanted to find a PBEM game that we could enjoy while he goes on deployment.

I would personally say, though, that having to discover an adjacent guerrilla unit by moving a hex, then moving your mouse into every adjacent hex and looking for the cursor to change into the attack icon, and then moving a hex, etc., for every unit in your OOB is extremely tedious. Having guerrillas be invisible until a unit moves adjacent to them is fine, though (which is what the 3.2 patch notes seemed to imply and may possibly have been the original intent of the code.)

Thanks for the reply, though, and good gaming!
Carl G.







sapper32 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 6:08:35 PM)

Im playing Campain for South Vietnam and some VC guerilla units are hidden when adjacent and some arnt im still on the previous patch.



CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/16/2010 6:42:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper32

Im playing Campain for South Vietnam and some VC guerilla units are hidden when adjacent and some arnt im still on the previous patch.


EDIT: Please see my post #17 below regarding why some Guerrilla units become visible when moved adjacent to and others don't. It had nothing to do with the terrain being a river hex...just a faulty observation on my part while testing. It has everything to do with whether the Guerrilla moved on the previous turn or not.

I noticed that VC guerrilla units that are on river hexes always become visible when adjacent to a friendly unit. Does your experience concur when using the previous patch? For me, at least, I don't recall seeing a VC unit visible on any other hexes (except as I mentioned earlier a few units in Cambodia that I didn't have any units within probably 15 hexes of them that suddenly appeared...I'm guessing Theater Recon.)

I haven't tested yet to see if that behavior also plays out for road hexes, urban hexes, etc., or if it is something unique to hexes with a river running through them (not talking about super river hexes.)

Thanks for the observation!
Carl G.






ralphtricky -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/17/2010 3:10:14 AM)

Carl,
I'm think I'm going to leave these alone for right now. It sounds like the behavior is like 3.2. I've got it down to investigate for 3.5. I need to talk it over with the team and figure out what the behavior really should be.[8D]

There are enough variables that I don't want to do a knee jerk reaction, but figure out how they should work, and go from there.[8|]

I'm not sure why the rivers are being spotted but not the other hexes.[&:]

I hate that they you can be next to them and not have them visible but you can mouse around and look for your cursor to change, it's the kind of micromanagement that isn't really management, there are no meaningful decisions there. It should either not show an attack cursor and you get ambushed, or they should be visible if you're adjacent. That's my opinion right now anyway, I've been persuaded before about other things.[:D]




CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/17/2010 3:37:51 AM)

Did some more testing. Here is how it is currently working in the game (I assume this is the same in 3.2 as it is in 3.4):

If you move adjacent to a Guerrilla unit that moved in the previous player's turn, it will become visible (doesn't matter what type of terrain it is sitting on).

If you move adjacent to a Guerrilla unit that did not move in the previous player's turn, it will stay invisibible no matter what (doesn't matter what type of terrain it is sitting on nor how many units you move adjacent to it or over it...aka airmobile recon). You can discover it due to either disengagement movement point costs and/or by moving your mouse cursor over it and seeing that the cursor changes to an attack symbol (I'm not referring to the arty or air attack cheat here...I'm talking about circling your cursor around a land unit as you move it hex by hex). As such, having it stay invisible in this case is a handicap only for a player who doesn't take on the tedious task of checking every hex for possible combat opportunities adjacent to his unit as he moves it...or who doesn't move one hex at a time paying close attention to movement point costs.

If you attack a Guerrilla unit that RBC's, it will become invisibile again and will not become visible when you move adjacent to it while pursuing. A Guerrilla unit moving during your turn due to retreat is now invisible for the rest of your turn. However, it is easy to attack it again since the cursor indicates an attack is possible and you can see which direction it retreats.

The patch notes from 3.2 state that Guerrilla units should now be properly invisible if not moving and the hex is not 'seen'. As it is now, the second half of that sentence has no meaning (i.e. the hex is not 'seen' has no practical effect in game since I don't see any way to make the hex become 'seen'.) A non-moving Guerrilla unit is always invisible, at least in my testing playing both sides with Fog of War on. If surrounding a Guerrilla unit with 1st Cav troops with 99% Recon doesn't make a hex become 'seen'...I don't know what will. [;)]

My previous statements about Guerrilla units being visible on river terrain was based on faulty testing...the Guerrilla unit I tested against had moved the previous turn. Also, a Guerrilla unit that reconstitutes immediately adjacent to an enemy unit (i.e. a VC unit reconstituting immediately adjacent to a US unit) will be visible turn after turn until it moves away from that adjacent enemy unit.

The fact that a Guerrilla unit that moved becomes visible if moved adjacent to on the following turn is why people report having moved adjacent to Guerrilla units and having had them become visible. I was unable to make any Guerrilla units become visible on any terrain if they did not move in the previous turn.

I don't know if the above is working as intended or if it is a bug due to a logic condition as mentioned by Ralph in an earlier post.

Good gaming, and hope these observations may be helpful for those playing scenarios which feature lots of Guerrilla units,
Carl G.




ralphtricky -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/17/2010 3:45:40 AM)

Thanks for the detailed analysis Carl. It's much appreciated.



CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/17/2010 3:46:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

Carl,
I'm think I'm going to leave these alone for right now. It sounds like the behavior is like 3.2. I've got it down to investigate for 3.5. I need to talk it over with the team and figure out what the behavior really should be.[8D]

I'm not sure why the rivers are being spotted but not the other hexes.[&:]



Very much understood regarding making any changes at this point. Take a look at my last post, though, and see if that sheds any light on things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

I hate that they you can be next to them and not have them visible but you can mouse around and look for your cursor to change, it's the kind of micromanagement that isn't really management, there are no meaningful decisions there. It should either not show an attack cursor and you get ambushed, or they should be visible if you're adjacent. That's my opinion right now anyway, I've been persuaded before about other things.[:D]



Completely agree...that's what was bugging me more than anything else as I was playing the scenario and why I started searching to see if this was really how it was intended to work. That kind of micromanagement is just...well...not very enjoyable (for me, at least). Others' mileage may vary. [:D]




CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/17/2010 3:53:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

Thanks for the detailed analysis Carl. It's much appreciated.



You're very welcome, Ralph. Thank YOU for the continued outstanding support of this game. I know people here say it all the time, but I really appreciate your hard work.

Good gaming,
Carl G.



ralphtricky -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/17/2010 4:00:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarlG2
Completely agree...that's what was bugging me more than anything else as I was playing the scenario and why I started searching to see if this was really how it was intended to work. That kind of micromanagement is just...well...not very enjoyable (for me, at least). Others' mileage may vary. [:D]

I suspect that there are a couple of posters out there that love that level of micromanagement. I like the idea of 'meaningful decisions' If it's something that you always should do, then let's automate it so you can do the things that are meaningful.



CarlG2 -> RE: Guerrilla Units Always Invisible? (8/17/2010 4:45:59 AM)

A fantastic design methodology! [&o] I look forward to seeing where you and the team decide to take this in the future.








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