Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (Full Version)

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Grisha -> Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 5:39:36 PM)

A common situation [edit: it's not really a problem] with many Russian front games is that most only play out till the German player calls it. As soon as the German player realizes they have to surrender the strategic initiative to the Soviet player, it's often decided that the game is done. Historically this wasn't exactly true, since there were other forces at work in Europe and the USSR narrowly missed a collapsed economy with its ensuing political collapse, but in terms of most Russian front games this rarely comes into play.

In WitE, what will compel the German player to remain playing after overt military victory is no longer an option? Are victory points of a political nature included in the game to provide the German player with some degree of political victory?

I ask this because it seems such a waste to put so much work into Soviet OOB and TOE only for it to rarely see the light of gaming day, other than with the odd late war mini-scenario.



ComradeP -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 5:44:59 PM)

Some players, myself included, still appreciate the challenge of trying to achieve a better than historical result. The Germans are pretty much doomed in France and on the Eastern Front in the summer of 1944, but it's still interesting to see whether you can achieve a better than historical result. Even if you can't win, you can still see whether you can create a stalemate which, due to VP's, eventually translates into a strategic victory.



Grisha -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 6:08:05 PM)

It's encouraging to hear that, ComradeP, though I feel your viewpoint is in the minority. In fact, my oldtime wargaming buddy (since the days of GDW's Drang Nach Osten) will more often than not call it quits soon after his wehrmacht lose their summer offensive days. If WitE is balanced so that the historical outcome is seen as a draw, that might help matters.



karonagames -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 6:31:37 PM)

I really hope WITE builds a community of players who will play through to the bitter end on both sides. If 2 players do play through the full 255 turns of the 1941 campaign, then they will know how they have performed, regardless of what the VP screen says - the current campaign VP screen has been posted somewhere, but I can't remember which thread.



ComradeP -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 6:46:02 PM)

Bob, you posted the VP screen on page 31 of the Q&A(/Q&A and sometimes banter) thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2540931

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quote:

It's encouraging to hear that, ComradeP, though I feel your viewpoint is in the minority. In fact, my oldtime wargaming buddy (since the days of GDW's Drang Nach Osten) will more often than not call it quits soon after his wehrmacht lose their summer offensive days. If WitE is balanced so that the historical outcome is seen as a draw, that might help matters.


I've also given up a number of games, there's an ATD2 AAR on this forum for a game which I resigned, but only when the result is set in stone. There can be a thin line between a game being interesting in the sense that people want to try to do a better than historical job, and a game being a waste of time for one player because there's nothing he can do to change anything that happens due to his units having been destroyed and/or balance issues. Resigning when an offensive doesn't achieve what you hoped it would purely due to your own planning mistakes and not due to weird bugs or the like is not something I'd favour.



Capt Cliff -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 6:54:04 PM)

The late 1944 and early 1945 time of the war get to be dicey for the other two fronts come into play. If the Germans are still way east of Warsaw or even still in Russia in November 44 then I don't think an Ardennes Offensive would have been launched. But then what of the Italian front? Would they be holding at the Po river or would the western Allies be possed to exploit the "soft underbelly"? The late war part of the game starts to be tired in with the other two fronts. WIR solved that some what by having pseudo areas where you could put units, there isn't any such areas in WitE, to my knowledge.



Grisha -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 7:04:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

I've also given up a number of games, there's an ATD2 AAR on this forum for a game which I resigned, but only when the result is set in stone. There can be a thin line between a game being interesting in the sense that people want to try to do a better than historical job, and a game being a waste of time for one player because there's nothing he can do to change anything that happens due to his units having been destroyed and/or balance issues. Resigning when an offensive doesn't achieve what you hoped it would purely due to your own planning mistakes and not due to weird bugs or the like is not something I'd favour.


Understood, and I agree with you. It's a matter of maintaining cohesion and when that is no longer possible, the game is best ended. But, if cohesion is maintained and reserves exist, then play should continue. To be honest, while I play in hopes of seeing Rybalko's 3th Guards Tank Army frolicking in Silesia, it really is no fun if the entire front is reduced to a breakthrough.



Grisha -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 7:07:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

The late 1944 and early 1945 time of the war get to be dicey for the other two fronts come into play. If the Germans are still way east of Warsaw or even still in Russia in November 44 then I don't think an Ardennes Offensive would have been launched. But then what of the Italian front? Would they be holding at the Po river or would the western Allies be possed to exploit the "soft underbelly"? The late war part of the game starts to be tired in with the other two fronts. WIR solved that some what by having pseudo areas where you could put units, there isn't any such areas in WitE, to my knowledge.


Exactly my thoughts on the issue. This is where the political impacts the military. A lot of guesswork involved in 'what-if' but doing so helps to add spice--and options--for a late war Germany on the retreat.



karonagames -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 8:06:37 PM)

@Capt Cliff. With respect,(which is the usual preamble before saying something disresptful!), but the Front system in WIR was the most abused, and possibly the most broken part of the game. I stopped playing WIR, and I played it a lot, when I realised just how stupid it was to garrison France with the Rumanian army, and to manipulate the Italian front by sending the weakest panzer divisions to meet the garrison criteria. I think 2by3 learned from this, and wisely (IMHO) avoided the whole can of worms that results from trying to have other fronts influence the Eastern front.

I agree wholeheartedly with the "can I do better than the historical result?" theory for playing apparently one-sided scenarios. Personally I can't wait until Ron has finished breaking the 1944 campaign, so that when it is fixed, I can get my hands on it and see what difference avoiding the Courland pocket etc. would have on the Axis chances of delaying the SU beyond the historical end of the war.



jaw -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 9:33:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

In WitE, what will compel the German player to remain playing after overt military victory is no longer an option? Are victory points of a political nature included in the game to provide the German player with some degree of political victory?

I ask this because it seems such a waste to put so much work into Soviet OOB and TOE only for it to rarely see the light of gaming day, other than with the odd late war mini-scenario.



As one of the people who put in all that effort I can tell you that the victory conditions have been designed to allow the Axis to achieve a measure of success in the late war by essentially losing slower than historical.

For those interested in TOEs and technology, the late war can be very fascinating but it won't likely be a lot of fun for the Axis player. No matter how you cut it, in a game it is still more fun to attack than to defend no matter what the victory conditions are.




BvB -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/18/2010 10:53:23 PM)

I guess I am also in the minority? I agree with ComradeP - play for the challenge. If you know your opponent will quit as soon as it is obvious who will win, I would not play that person. Now if your whole front has collapsed and it seems totally hopeless and an opponent wants to end it, fine. But not just because they only play to win...
Baron von Beergut



Pipewrench -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 2:28:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha


In WitE, what will compel the German player to remain playing after overt military victory is no longer an option? Are victory points of a political nature included in the game to provide the German player with some degree of political victory?




how about an on-line database that holds scores for players and their games. It would be nice if it could provide turn results to the community as a whole but its main reason for being is to rate a player with a win / loss and resign talley which should pressure most players to finish games they started.



Silvanski -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 5:37:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

...The Germans are pretty much doomed in France and on the Eastern Front in the summer of 1944, but it's still interesting to see whether you can achieve a better than historical result.

Indeed, different decisions can produce a different outcome, even it is inevitable defeat.
Those precious SS panzers for example... they sure won't end up in Hungary as was the case historically



sven6345789 -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 12:03:28 PM)

I rhink it is a question of how victory is counted. I remember "the Russian Front", The long out of print AH boardgame. The victory conditions were such that if looking at history Germany would have lost the game in early 1944; Bagration wouldn't even have taken place in the game since it would have ended earlier.

What are the Victory conditions of War in the East? sudden death ? points?



jaw -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 1:08:50 PM)

Here are the campaign game victory conditions based on the most recent version of the rules. Please note that these conditions could change as a result of continuing playtesting.


"Campaign Scenarios start at different points during the war, but all can go to the 01 October 1945. Victory is determined based on the number of cities and urban hexes that are controlled by the Axis player. The Soviet player wins by forcing German surrender through the capture of Berlin along with the majority of the map area, with the victory level determined by the date this occurs. The Axis player wins either by capturing most of the cities and urban hexes in the part of the map area that corresponds to the historical German objective to advance to the north-south line from Archangel to Astrakhan or holding on to a minimum number of cities and urban hexes, with the amount determining the level of victory. The actual number of victory points required for the various victory levels is dependent on the particular campaign scenario.

Cities and urban hexes have the following point values:
Heavy Urban - 5
Light Urban - 3
City - 1
National Capital - +5 (Moscow, Berlin, Bucharest, Budapest, Bratislava, Helsinki)


Germany will surrender at any time that Berlin has been captured and the Axis player controls less than 25 points of cities and urban hexes. This will result in a Soviet automatic victory.

If neither player wins an automatic victory by 01 October 1945, the winner is determined by the number of points controlled by the Axis player.

Victory levels for the 1941-45 and 1942-45 campaign scenarios:
Decisive Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders in 1944 or earlier.
Major Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders between 1/1/45 and 5/31/45.
Minor Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders between 6/30/45 and 9/30/45.
Draw - Germany does not surrender by 10/01/45 and the Axis player has less than 142 points.
Minor Axis Victory – The Axis controls 142-199 points at the end of the game.
Major Axis Victory – The Axis controls 200-289 points at the end of the game.
Decisive Axis Victory - At any time the Axis controls 290 points.

Victory levels for the 1943-45 campaign scenario:
Decisive Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders in 1944 or earlier.
Major Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders between 1/1/45 and 5/31/45.
Minor Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders between 6/30/45 and 9/30/45.
Draw - Germany does not surrender by 10/01/45 and the Axis player has less than 75 points.
Minor Axis Victory – The Axis controls 75-149 points at the end of the game.
Major Axis Victory – The Axis controls 150-249 points at the end of the game.
Decisive Axis Victory - At any time the Axis controls 250 points.

Victory levels for the 1944-45 campaign scenario:
Decisive Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders in 1944 or earlier.
Major Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders between 1/1/45 and 5/31/45.
Minor Soviet Victory - If Germany surrenders between 6/30/45 and 9/30/45.
Draw - Germany does not surrender by 10/01/45 and the Axis player has less than 40 points.
Minor Axis Victory – The Axis controls 40-99 points at the end of the game.
Major Axis Victory – The Axis controls 100-199 points at the end of the game.
Decisive Axis Victory - At any time the Axis controls 200 points.

The players will be provided the option to continue playing the game in the case where the Axis has met the conditions for an automatic victory. If they decide to continue, the game would play out until 01 Oct 1945 or until the Soviet player forces an Axis surrender."



ComradeP -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 1:24:37 PM)

Do all hexes in a multiple hex capital city give a +5 point bonus, or is there only one capital city hex?

Soviet republican capitals (there are 9 on the map I believe, or 8 aside from Moscow) and occupied national capitals (Warsaw, Prague, possibly Vienna) don't give an extra bonus?



thackaray -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 3:23:10 PM)

From memory, Moscow has 3 hexes that need to be captured. I'm sure Berlin is similar, not sure about the other capitals though.

However, I like these victory conditions alot, as it keeps the German player involved for alot longer than '42-'43, unless he has a total collapse.

I've just realised these conditions are similar to ones to I suggested way back in January. It's good to know that TPTB read posts and take ideas/suggestions from the board and see if they can work in the game you're developing.




jaw -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 3:58:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thackaray

From memory, Moscow has 3 hexes that need to be captured. I'm sure Berlin is similar, not sure about the other capitals though.

However, I like these victory conditions alot, as it keeps the German player involved for alot longer than '42-'43, unless he has a total collapse.

I've just realised these conditions are similar to ones to I suggested way back in January. It's good to know that TPTB read posts and take ideas/suggestions from the board and see if they can work in the game you're developing.




The capitol is just a single hex even if the city itself consists of multiple urban hexes.



jaw -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 4:00:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP



Soviet republican capitals (there are 9 on the map I believe, or 8 aside from Moscow) and occupied national capitals (Warsaw, Prague, possibly Vienna) don't give an extra bonus?


No, just the national capitols of the Axis and Soviet Union.



Capt Cliff -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/19/2010 6:35:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

The late 1944 and early 1945 time of the war get to be dicey for the other two fronts come into play. If the Germans are still way east of Warsaw or even still in Russia in November 44 then I don't think an Ardennes Offensive would have been launched. But then what of the Italian front? Would they be holding at the Po river or would the western Allies be possed to exploit the "soft underbelly"? The late war part of the game starts to be tired in with the other two fronts. WIR solved that some what by having pseudo areas where you could put units, there isn't any such areas in WitE, to my knowledge.


Exactly my thoughts on the issue. This is where the political impacts the military. A lot of guesswork involved in 'what-if' but doing so helps to add spice--and options--for a late war Germany on the retreat.


Yes, not much use of holding the Russians east of the Neimen when Patton takes Berlin from the west. It's got to be harder on the Germans after Salerno and worst after June 6th. But it maybe modeled into the unit withdrawl and supply rate in late 44 and early 45.



sven6345789 -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/20/2010 6:55:28 AM)

my guess too.
a) Units will be withdrawn from the eastern front to be transferred to Italy and France
b) Overall commitment will drop regarding replacements and equipment over time.

How is the withdrawal done? Do the Units go "pooff"? or do you have to move them to a rail line and activily withdraw them? What happens if you don't? Do you loose Administration or political points?



jaw -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/20/2010 1:09:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

my guess too.
a) Units will be withdrawn from the eastern front to be transferred to Italy and France
b) Overall commitment will drop regarding replacements and equipment over time.

How is the withdrawal done? Do the Units go "pooff"? or do you have to move them to a rail line and activily withdraw them? What happens if you don't? Do you loose Administration or political points?


The Arrival/Withdrawal schedule tells you when units are withdrawing. If you don't move them out of the line in advance of their withdrawal date they will literally disappear perhaps leaving a hole in the line.



Zemke -> RE: Is there a late war incentive for the German player? (8/22/2010 4:32:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

I really hope WITE builds a community of players who will play through to the bitter end on both sides. If 2 players do play through the full 255 turns of the 1941 campaign, then they will know how they have performed, regardless of what the VP screen says - the current campaign VP screen has been posted somewhere, but I can't remember which thread.


After playing WitP:AE to May 43 (and still going) at turn 353, 255 turns to finish the game will be like a "fast" game.



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