Work in progress (Full Version)

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samba_liten -> Work in progress (9/15/2010 1:00:28 PM)

[image]http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6214/previewbl.jpg[/image]

Work in progress- 2.5km/hex, based on Luftwaffe maps from the 1940s. Tips?

When done (hopefully sometime this century)this project will depict the last battle(s) of the war in some detail. I have started work on the German side OOB, and found some sources for the Soviet side (still, the RKKA will be challenging to get right.)



vsadek -> RE: Work in progress (9/15/2010 3:05:52 PM)

This looks great. Keep up the good work!



Hansolo88 -> RE: Work in progress (9/15/2010 6:19:17 PM)

Wow, that's intense.  At that level of detail I don't envy the amount of research you'll have to do.  Plus balancing the victory conditions will be an interesting challenge.  But I certainly look forward to playing it!



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (9/15/2010 6:39:57 PM)

The German OOB in progress runs to 217 pages in office so far. Most of it copy and paste, but it took me most of my vacation week this summer to (almost)finish it. Still have to add a load of stug units, any units that were raised after 1/3-45 plus the various weird and wonderful little tank units that were created from various training establishments. Then we will see if it fits into TOAW, and if the d**n thing is playable...[:D]



Sker -> RE: Work in progress (9/16/2010 1:20:30 AM)

I think that after you have the OOB you should try to focus on the playability of the whole thing, for example dropping some small and pretty unuseful unit that can create some problem, and have a hard work in balancing the victory conditions.
It's a good idea, and surely I'm gonna follow up what came out of this



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (9/16/2010 7:59:50 AM)

I have high hopes for 3.4. It might let me include smaller units, and still be playable.  However, i do not plan on including anything smaller than a battalion. In general the scale will be regiments for the Germans, and divisions for the RKKA.



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (9/16/2010 5:14:56 PM)

I have finished my first major city.
[img]http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4590/previewri.jpg[/img]



Silvanski -> RE: Work in progress (9/17/2010 2:32:23 AM)

This looks awesome already!  I am attempting to mod the old Berlin scenario by Thomas Kolley, but it'll need a lot more work



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (9/17/2010 9:50:35 AM)

Here is the first part of the German OOB that I've finished. Yes, i know these units were a long way from Berlin...when i started this project i was ambitious. Still am, but we will see how much time I have to spend on this. Ultimately the southern part of the original scenario idea might have to wait until after I've finished a smaller version covering just Berlin. But still, in the end i would like to have a version covering as much as i can fit of the last battles all on one map.

I hope this list comes out legible...

If you have any tips or comments about the OOB, please fire away. I need all the help i can get.




Army Group Army Corps Division Brigade Regiment Battalion Company Commander Notes
Army Group South Otto Wöhler
Heeresgruppen Nachr. Rgt 530
232 Pz. Div Tatra Hans-Ulrich Back
Pz. Grn. Rgt. 101
Pz. Grn. Rgt. 102
27th Hun. ID Gyözö Horváth Need info on what regiments were attached!
153rd Gren. Div NO INFO
Grn. Rgt. 715
Grn. Rgt. 716
Grn. Rgt. 717
Fusilier Btl. 153
Pio. Btl. 153
Art. Rgt. 453
Szent-Laszlo Hun. Div. Zoltán Szügyi  
1.( Parachute) Rgt.
2. (Infantry) Rgt.
3. (Fortress Rgt.
1. Art. Btl.
6. Art. Btl.
9. Art. Btl.
76. Art. Btl.
1. Rocket Btl.
20. Assault Gun Btl.
Szt. Laszlo Combat Engineer Btl. MOTORIZED
Szt. Laszlo Armoured Recon Btl.
44. Hoch-und Deutschmeister Hans-Günther von Rost
Grn. Rgt. 131
Grn. Rgt. 132
Grn. Rgt. Hoch und Deutschmeister
Art. Rgt. 96
Pion. Btl.80
Granatwerfer-Bataillon 44
Feldersatz-Bataillon Hoch- und Deutschmeister
1st LSSAH Otto Kumm
Inf.Rgt. 1 LSSAH
Inf.Rgt. 2 LSSAH
Panzer-Rgt. LSSAH
Art.Rgt. LSSAH
Sturmgesch.Abt. LSSAH
Pz.Jäg.Abt. LSSAH
Aufkl.Abt. LSSAH
Flak-Abt. LSSAH
Pion.Btl. LSSAH
12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend Hugo Kraas
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 25
SS-Panzergrenadier Regiment 26
SS-Panzer Regiment 12
SS-Panzer Artillerie Regiment 12
SS-Kradschützen-Regiment 12
SS-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 12
SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 12
SS-Werfer-Abteilung 12
SS-Flak-Abteilung 12
SS-Pionier-Abteilung 12
SS-Feldgendarmerie-Kompanie/Trupp 12
37. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Lützow Karl Gesele
SS-Kavallerie Regiment 92
SS-Kavallerie Regiment 93
SS-Artillerie-Abteilung 37 (two batteries with le.FH18 10,5cm)
SS-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 37
SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 37 (one company equipped with Hetzer)
SS-Pionier-Bataillion 37
Feldersatz-Bataillon 37
2nd Pz. Army General der Artillerie Maximilian de Angelis
Hoh. ArKo 305
Koruck 582
Sicherungs-Bataillone 222
Sicherungs-Bataillone 721
Sicherungs-Bataillone 722
Sicherungs-Bataillone 738
Sicherungs-Bataillone 787
Wach-Bataillon 508
LXVIII Corps General der Gebirgstruppen Rudolf Konrad
ArKo 168
Panzerspäh-Kompanie 468
13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar (kroatische Nr. 1) SS-Brigadeführer Desiderius Hampel
SS-Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS 27
SS-Waffen-Gebirgsjäger-Regiment der SS 28
SS-Waffen-Artillerie-Regiment der SS 13
SS-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 13
SS-Aufklärungs-Abteilung (mot) 13
Waffen-Gebirgs-Pionier-Abteilung der SS 13
Waffen-Flak-Abteilung der SS 13
Kroatische SS-Radfahr-Bataillon
Kroatische SS-Kradschützen-Bataillon
SS-Feldersatz-Bataillon 13
SS-Kraftfahr-Lehr-Abteilung 13
The unit took on Germans from various smaller units in the Balkans and fought in Croatia and Hungary but was only brigade size.
71. Infanterie-Division Generalmajor Eberhard von Schuckmann
Grenadier-Regiment 191
Grenadier-Regiment 194
Grenadier-Regiment 211
Füsilier-Bataillon 171
Artillerie-Regiment 171
Pionier-Bataillon 171
Panzerjäger-Abteilung 171
Feldersatz-Bataillon 171
XXII Gebirgs Corps General der Gebirgstruppe Hubert Lanz
ArKo 422
Feldgendarmerie-Trupp a (mot.) 422
1. Volks-Gebirgs-Division Generalleutnant August Wittmann
Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 98
Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 99
Gebirgs-Artillerie-Regiment 79
Gebirgs-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 44
Gebirgsjäger-Bataillon 54
Gebirgs-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 54
Gebirgs-Pionier-Bataillon 54
Gebirgsjäger-Feld-Ersatz-Bataillon 54
118. Jäger-Division Generalmajor Hubert Lamey
Jäger-Regiment 738
Jäger-Regiment 750
Artillerie-Regiment 668
Aufklärungs-Abteilung 118
Panzerjäger-Abteilung 118
Pionier-Bataillon 118



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (9/17/2010 9:53:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski

This looks awesome already!  I am attempting to mod the old Berlin scenario by Thomas Kolley, but it'll need a lot more work


That's where I started as well. In the end i decided it would be more fun to just make my own instead. I got rather frustrated trying to adjust the original map to match my idea of historicity.[8|]



Hansolo88 -> RE: Work in progress (9/17/2010 6:07:58 PM)

Wow, Stettin is 9 hexes?  How many hexes is Berlin???

I definitely think you should focus on a smaller scenario covering just the area around Berlin as you can always expand it later.

By the way, since you guys are obviously very familiar with the campaign, I read a while back that the Soviets took around 400,000 casualties during the "Battle of Berlin".  How accurate is that figure?  I'm sure it would at least partially depend on what time periods and areas of fighting are considered part of the "Battle of Berlin".



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (9/17/2010 6:48:34 PM)

Most of my sources quote 304,887 killed, wounded or missing from the units directly participating in the battle of Berlin, along with 2156 tanks and SP guns,
1220 field guns and mortars, and 527 combat aircraft.

I haven't really gotten to Berlin yet, although i sketched some of it roughly, just for fun. I did about half that way before i started doing something constructive again. You can see part of it in the mini-map in the screen-shots. Rough guess is something between 30 and 40 hexes.



Silvanski -> RE: Work in progress (10/26/2010 9:25:42 AM)

How is this project coming along?



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (10/27/2010 10:02:06 AM)

Slowly, if at all. I haven't had time to work on the map lately, but the OOB has gotten a few hours more attention. I have found a bunch of sources for the RKKA, but they are mostly in Russian, which means very slow progress. I can read the words, but i have to look most of them up. I'll try to post some progress later on today, or tomorrow.

Thanks for showing interest!



Panama -> RE: Work in progress (10/27/2010 12:21:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: polarenper

Slowly, if at all. I haven't had time to work on the map lately, but the OOB has gotten a few hours more attention. I have found a bunch of sources for the RKKA, but they are mostly in Russian, which means very slow progress. I can read the words, but i have to look most of them up. I'll try to post some progress later on today, or tomorrow.

Thanks for showing interest!



There's an online translator for IE. Will translate automatically. Just right click on the page. It might be under accelerators. After right click it will show an option, 'Translate with live search'. I can't remember how I got it activated.



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (10/27/2010 1:38:59 PM)

Thanks for the tip. Ill check it out.
Ive been using my wife and her father up till now[:D] .
They get kind of annoyed with all the military vocab, not to mention the fact that my father in law is rabidly anti-soviet, being Ukrainian.



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (10/27/2010 2:08:07 PM)

Since i don't have anything more exciting to post yet, heres a shot of the source map[:'(]
[image]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4861/howidoit.jpg[/image]



BigDuke66 -> RE: Work in progress (10/30/2010 10:18:00 PM)

[sm=Cool-049.gif]
Keep on going scenario sounds interesting.



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (11/3/2010 3:35:44 PM)

[image]http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3073/progressa.jpg[/image]

Those super rivers are actually a series of little lakes connected by steams. Took me a while to decide how to portray them, and longer to get them on the map!



Panama -> RE: Work in progress (11/3/2010 6:43:17 PM)

Yeah, I think we really need a terrain tile to portray something like that since it's a very common one.



Telumar -> RE: Work in progress (11/4/2010 12:11:15 AM)

Hm i don't know - when i look at the scanned map and compare it to the TOAW map i wouldn't put a superriver into the same location as Zechlin. The bridge could be blown. Something that has no relation to reality whatsoever.

Keep it going, looks good! Just take attention to rivers and actual bridges.



Erik2 -> RE: Work in progress (11/4/2010 8:29:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Hm i don't know - when i look at the scanned map and compare it to the TOAW map i wouldn't put a superriver into the same location as Zechlin. The bridge could be blown. Something that has no relation to reality whatsoever.

Keep it going, looks good! Just take attention to rivers and actual bridges.


I always use various bridge symbols to indicate wether there actually is a bridge there and if it may be blown.

Examples:
#
)*(
][



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (11/4/2010 10:27:09 AM)

Good point. I'll have to rethink that. Trouble is, that in many cases there are no bridges at all, but i'm not able to illustrate the obstacle the lake represents without inventing one. Three options spring to mind; First, use symbols to denote cases where the bridges were invented by the editor, second, change the major river to a minor river, third, move the road and railroad one ex so as to remove the fictional bridge.

In the first case, we have history preserved, but at the cost of a house rule. In the second, units on foot will be hindered in an approximately apropriate way, but rail traffic and supply flow can be hindered in an unhistorical way, and in the third everything is ok, except the fact that the railroad and road is not where it is supposed to be.

I'm leaning towards number one at this point, but am worried about the limit on named locations on the map, so i think for now i will go for option three.

EDIT: Went with #4, and removed the super river from that hex. I'm off to check the rest of the lake system for false bridges[:D]



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (11/6/2010 7:03:56 PM)

Been working on the map a bit again. Realized i've finished almost exactly half of the source map. Time consuming work this.

Still haven't made up my mind as to just how much to cram into this. At the least i need to finish this map, extend it a couple of hexes to the west, to get to the limit of the historical Soviet advance, and extend it a bit to the south east so i can fit Rokossovsky on there.

Would be interesting to go further south as well, to try to get more of the front, but as the designer of the original Berlin scenario said in his notes, it ads work for not much gain. Another thing I'm thinking about is extending the map eastwards in general to try and show the Soviet Pomeranian offensive. And wouldn't it be lovely to include the encircled army in the Baltic too. OK, getting carried away here...

By the way, that gray thing in the lower half of the map is the bit of Berlin i sketched in. It's about half of the city.



[image]http://img602.imageshack.us/img602/1725/sofar.jpg[/image]



BigDuke66 -> RE: Work in progress (11/6/2010 7:21:06 PM)

Sure it's sweet to get more on the map especially when there is something to depict but when the focus of the scenarios is Berlin it should be enough to show Berlin and the things around it to depict the soviet attack on Berlin.



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (11/10/2010 6:10:10 PM)

Finished the first bit of the German OOB. Still lots to be done. Have to look through the sources to find any units that were missing from the original division level oob i based this on, and add corps and army level artillery and stug units, as well as any other non-divisional units ive missed so far. Finally i have to add units that will arrive as reinforcements.

Ive attached a link to the file in open office format. Should open in excel as well.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ef5sjmn1e2w5iqy



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (11/12/2010 7:06:06 PM)

Someone told me he was unable to open the file, so here is a link to an xls version.
http://www.mediafire.com/?cv2vsx5c0hzf6c2

Pretty much the same file. A few stug units have been added though.

Please let me know if you spot something that shouldn't be there, or something that should be included and isn't.



BigDuke66 -> RE: Work in progress (11/12/2010 7:50:07 PM)

Did you already think about scenario parameters like starting date, turn range, etc.?



Silvanski -> RE: Work in progress (11/12/2010 8:01:42 PM)

I don't see the SS KG 1001 Nacht
Have you considered including the 12th Army? 



samba_liten -> RE: Work in progress (11/12/2010 8:37:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Did you already think about scenario parameters like starting date, turn range, etc.?


Still thinking. As you know from my previous ramblings i am tempted to include more than Berlin itself. Also the sources i have for the Wehrmacht are usually for March 1st. Hence, the original idea was to start off somewhere close to that date with the Soviet Pomeranian offensive and German counter attack.
Your arguments have been noted, and are being considered. The remaining reason i have for not changing my mind is the fact that Berlin, historically was not defended as well as it could have been. I would like to give the German player the opportunity to change that, if i can come up with victory conditions that simulate the price to be paid, that is.

Edit: Forgot to answer part two of your question. The scale is 2.5 km per hex. Initially i was thinking 6 hour turns, in keeping with my super-detailed philosophy. I have realized that that will make 280 or so turns. If the scenario starts from April 16th we end up with 88 turns or so. More reasonable, but i am still not convinced. 6 hour turns might make progress seem to slow, and also lead to one or both side having too many units destroyed. I'll have to experiment i guess. At the moment im leaning towards half or full day turns.

Another thing is reconstituting units. With such a short time frame covered, i don't think units should reconstitute. However, i don't know if that will mean one or the other side will run out of units to fast.



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