"Fires"? (Full Version)

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mike scholl 1 -> "Fires"? (9/20/2010 4:41:35 PM)

I can't seem to locate any explanation of "fires" in the rules. I started about 250,000 of them in Tokyo a couple turns back..., but I can't see any effects. Could someone help please? 1945 is uncharted water for my opponent and myself.



Shark7 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 4:52:46 PM)

Think 'fire storm' from a fire bombing campaign. Supposed to damage industry and manpower IIRC.



Alfred -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 4:53:21 PM)

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targetting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred



Shark7 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 4:56:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targetting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred


They can also occur randomly. I've had bombardment TFs start raging fires before. They are probably targeting the Manpower in their bombard algorithm (when MP is present).



mike scholl 1 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 5:15:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targeting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred



I understand how to start "fires"..., but I can't seem to see any results from
having done so. Nor can my opponent. Do they actually damage anything? And
how long does it take?



Shark7 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 5:25:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targeting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred



I understand how to start "fires"..., but I can't seem to see any results from
having done so. Nor can my opponent. Do they actually damage anything? And
how long does it take?


They have to get pretty big to do anything from what I've seen. Check your manpower from turn to turn, if anything, that will be what is damaged first. Also, check to make sure anything is actually producing with the fires going.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 6:15:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Have a peek at the first paragraph on page 152 of the manual. Fires can result from targeting Manpower Centers in a City Attack.

Alfred



I understand how to start "fires"..., but I can't seem to see any results from
having done so. Nor can my opponent. Do they actually damage anything? And
how long does it take?


They have to get pretty big to do anything from what I've seen. Check your manpower from turn to turn, if anything, that will be what is damaged first. Also, check to make sure anything is actually producing with the fires going.



Thanks..., I'll keep looking. But in a game that allows me to worry about the command capabilities of the CO of Garbage Scow 69 at Addu Atoll, I'd really expected something more visually satisfying to result from some of history's most devastating air attacks. [:(]



Alfred -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 8:05:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


..., I'll keep looking. But in a game that allows me to worry about the command capabilities of the CO of Garbage Scow 69 at Addu Atoll, I'd really expected something more visually satisfying to result from some of history's most devastating air attacks. [:(]



I don't know if you read many AARs of classical WITP, but in the earlier game, Speedy in his AAR v Fabertong commented on how disappointed he was with the damage caused by fires. He determined that it simply was not worthwhile and subsequently limited himself to targetting industry and leaving manpower alone. AFAIK, the AE devs did not alter this component.

Alfred



pws1225 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 8:46:28 PM)

In my last game against the AI, I used B-29s from Formosa to bomb Osaka's manpower pool. After a couple of weeks of night time runs at 8,000 feet, light and heavy industry, as well as manpower, was damaged. At one point, 'Fires' were over a million. The effort was worth over 500 VPs. So from my limited experience, fires seem to impact more than just manpower, especially if you keep stirring up the rubble by repeated raids.



Bullwinkle58 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/20/2010 8:50:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I don't know if you read many AARs of classical WITP, but in the earlier game, Speedy in his AAR v Fabertong commented on how disappointed he was with the damage caused by fires. He determined that it simply was not worthwhile and subsequently limited himself to targetting industry and leaving manpower alone. AFAIK, the AE devs did not alter this component.

Alfred


My distant memory is of some trigger number--like 80,000 (maybe 8000?)--Fires to equal a firestorm in WITP. A firestorm did significant damage over multiple days as I recall. Normal Fires went out after the day's turn resolution.

I can't remember what Fires damaged, but I also dimmly recall it being, maybe, Manpower, and then a random amount of random industries in the hex. Much like an A-bomb attack. OTOH, I also have dim memories of discussion saying a firestorm only upped the Manpower losses, so . . .

I never got a firestorm going in WITP, despite some 800+ plane B-29 raids. I think I got into the 30,000s (or 3000s if my decimal memory is off.)



mike scholl 1 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 3:53:52 AM)

Well according to the "mouseover" I left 376,318 "fires" burning in Sasebo from last turn's attack. Is this enough to do something? [&:] Doesn't seem to be any sign of it...



witpqs -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 5:31:29 AM)

Suggest you look over the course of 2 or 3 turns and see what develops.



castor troy -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 8:26:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


..., I'll keep looking. But in a game that allows me to worry about the command capabilities of the CO of Garbage Scow 69 at Addu Atoll, I'd really expected something more visually satisfying to result from some of history's most devastating air attacks. [:(]



I don't know if you read many AARs of classical WITP, but in the earlier game, Speedy in his AAR v Fabertong commented on how disappointed he was with the damage caused by fires. He determined that it simply was not worthwhile and subsequently limited himself to targetting industry and leaving manpower alone. AFAIK, the AE devs did not alter this component.

Alfred



thatīs my guess on it too. Forget attacking manpower or creating fires, just kill all the industry, usually takes only one big attack to more or less knock out a big factory anyway.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 1:00:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Suggest you look over the course of 2 or 3 turns and see what develops.



Well, the next turn continuing attacks started another 750,000+ "fires" (according to the combat reports, and taken with a large grain of salt). Still seemed like a good follow through. So imagine my surprise when the "mouseover" revealed only 125,000-odd "fires" at Sasebo after the second turn of bombing.

I guess Castor Troy is right. This is an area where all the designers from 2by3 right up through the AE team have failed miserably. Really a shame, as incindiaries proved the very best way historically to take out Japanese industries..., with or without a "firestorm".



USSAmerica -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 1:18:54 PM)

The fires are reduced by the local fire departments after your attacks each day.  What you see in the mouseover is what is still burning after the firefighting efforts.  The way to really get a firestorm going is to do this for several days in a row, so the amount of fire remaining each day increases and continues to damage the other industry at the base.  The big issue with this being effective in WitP was the percentage of fires that got extinguished every day.  It was too high and never really left any fires burning to "build on" with the next day's attacks.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that this was corrected in AE, and with 125k "fires" remaining after your turn, it seems to be more effective now...



witpqs -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 1:22:14 PM)

What he said. [8D]

And have a look at factories and such over those turns and see if they are being damaged/destroyed.



USSAmerica -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 1:25:59 PM)

Oh, yeah, I recall that the fires are supposed to actually destroy the factories instead of just damaging them.



mike scholl 1 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 2:01:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

The fires are reduced by the local fire departments after your attacks each day.  What you see in the mouseover is what is still burning after the firefighting efforts.  The way to really get a firestorm going is to do this for several days in a row, so the amount of fire remaining each day increases and continues to damage the other industry at the base.  The big issue with this being effective in WitP was the percentage of fires that got extinguished every day.  It was too high and never really left any fires burning to "build on" with the next day's attacks.




That was basically what I did. Having 375,000 fires burning, the following turn I hit it heavily (and seemingly successfully) again. So imagine my surprise when the total of "fires" not only didn't increase, but actually decreased by 2/3rds. Rather counter-intuitive to say the least.



morganbj -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 2:02:45 PM)

Down here in Texas, we call them "fars." As in "Hey, Alvin. Ju get thet far goin yet?"

Seriously.



Shark7 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 6:40:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Down here in Texas, we call them "fars." As in "Hey, Alvin. Ju get thet far goin yet?"

Seriously.



there is actually a sign about 50 miles from where I live that reads, and I quote:

'Farwood fer sale'

need I say more? [8|]



morganbj -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 7:20:06 PM)

I saw one once (about 1957) near Brownsville that said "Free Worms"

The line below it said "25 cents a dozen"



There was another guy who was selling bait up near Gothwaite. He was selling worms in old sterno cans. His sign said "Can 'o Worms 10 Cents or two for a Quarter." He said a lot of people bought two.




Misconduct -> RE: "Fires"? (9/22/2010 11:56:07 PM)

If I bring a pig to the fire bombing, would it be called a roast? I can afford the pig, not the beer so BYOB.



michaelm75au -> RE: "Fires"? (9/23/2010 11:56:11 AM)

Fires in a city have a chance to go 'wild' and increase. More fires, higher the chance it will become a firestorm.
(a) You gain strategic points from the FIRE damage.
(b) MP is either destroyed or disabled by the FIRE.
(c) Other industry in city can become disabled by the FIRE.
All these are random events and each industry device in the city is checked.

Fires decrease at a lower rate in AE (4%) than WITP (10%).

Edit got the percentage wrong - it is .4 which is 40%

Edit sorry rates are complements to what I said:
Fires decrease at a lower rate in AE (60% per turn) than WITP (90% per turn). See post below for spreadsheet image



mike scholl 1 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/23/2010 7:27:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Fires in a city have a chance to go 'wild' and increase. More fires, higher the chance it will become a firestorm.
(a) You gain strategic points from the FIRE damage.
(b) MP is either destroyed or disabled by the FIRE.
(c) Other industry in city can become disabled by the FIRE.
All these are random events and each industry device in the city is checked.

Fires decrease at a lower rate in AE (4%) than WITP (10%).



Are you sure about that 04% Mike? My experiance has been more like 64%.

quote:

That was basically what I did. Having 375,000 fires burning, the following turn I hit it heavily (and seemingly successfully) again. So imagine my surprise when the total of "fires" not only didn't increase, but actually decreased by 2/3rds. Rather counter-intuitive to say the least.



michaelm75au -> RE: "Fires"? (9/24/2010 12:02:20 PM)

Looks like I just took the numbers from the code formula without thinking; wasn't thinking too clearly. The correct values should be the complement of what I said: WITP is decreased by 90% to 10% of previous FIRES value, AE is decreased by 60% to 40% of the previous FIRES.

I have have put this into a spreadsheet to make it a bit clearer.

Based on the 375K fires, this is how the FIRES should decrease (assuming nothing else increased them) by the turn % and as a total %.
It shows the values from WITP and AE, and show that the FIRES can last twice as long with AE than it did with WITP.





[image]local://upfiles/3086/C1F9A237518E425390497A123523A950.jpg[/image]



morganbj -> RE: "Fires"? (9/24/2010 3:30:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

If I bring a pig to the fire bombing, would it be called a roast? I can afford the pig, not the beer so BYOB.

No, it would be called pig. A burnt pig, but a pig nonetheless.



Shark7 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/24/2010 3:37:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

If I bring a pig to the fire bombing, would it be called a roast? I can afford the pig, not the beer so BYOB.

No, it would be called pig. A burnt pig, but a pig nonetheless.


I'd call it supper. Slightly overdone perhaps...but still edible. [:'(]



mike scholl 1 -> RE: "Fires"? (9/24/2010 10:14:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Looks like I just took the numbers from the code formula without thinking; wasn't thinking too clearly. The correct values should be the complement of what I said: WITP is decreased by 90% to 10% of previous FIRES value, AE is decreased by 60% to 40% of the previous FIRES.

I have have put this into a spreadsheet to make it a bit clearer.

Based on the 375K fires, this is how the FIRES should decrease (assuming nothing else increased them) by the turn % and as a total %.
It shows the values from WITP and AE, and show that the FIRES can last twice as long with AE than it did with WITP.




Thanks Mike..., nice to know I'm not crazy or being particularly put apon by the program. [:)]



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