Naval Gunnery Q: (Full Version)

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AbsntMndedProf -> Naval Gunnery Q: (8/18/2002 6:16:53 PM)

Recently I've been spending a lot of time playing D-Day scenarios through the WW II campaign generator. One problem, and it's not a serious one, is the lack of accuracy by the naval support units. Is there any way to tweak them so that they get better 'to hit' chances? 7% and the like from less than 10 hexes, or 500 yards, away? :confused:

Eric Maietta



Supervisor -> (8/19/2002 12:41:45 AM)

More experieinced FO's or a better positioned spotter calling in the barrage might increase your success. Unless it's counterbattery then you really can't increase the odds to the best of my knowledge.



Redleg -> (8/19/2002 12:23:56 PM)

The scenario designer most likely took the artillery effectiveness into account when the scenario was created.

However, it is quite easy to open the scenario and tweak the artillery. Most off-board artillery units have relatively low competency numbers; these can be changed.

In preferences, you can change the setting to alter the artillery vs hard and soft targets which will change things to a degree as well.

Heck you can even purchase more and bigger if you want. :p



AbsntMndedProf -> (8/24/2002 9:58:31 PM)

Perhaps my original q wasn't specific enough. I was refering to direct fire %s for landing support craft with rockets, mortars, and/or cannons. These onboard assets cannot fire indirectly. Or if they can, I haven't figured out how. I've had LSTs with mortars or rockets firing at German infantry on the beach from as few as one or two hexes away with a 7% to hit chance.

Eric Maietta



Bing -> (8/25/2002 12:24:07 AM)

Firing from the deck of a small craft which is probably rising and falling through a +/- 5 foot arc. Through smoke - created and from naval gunfire off shore and from German artillery. Inexperienced boatsmen: Who in the Navy at that time in Europe had done this before?

They are lucky to hit anything. 7% isn't all that bad, remember you have hundreds of rounds of ammunition to expend. Fire a few hundred rounds, you will hit something, hopefully it will not be American or British. Also remember, this is a game where you can fire literally thousands of rounds of ammo at a German 88 and never scratch the piece.

You can always edit the scneario in the Editor, tweak the craft for rally, experience, morale, that sort of thing.

You might also remember that on June 6, 1944 thousands of rockets were fired from craft such as you are enumerating. And not one rocket hit anything on the beach - all were fired with excessively high elevation and landed in the marshes behind the beaches. Made the grunts in the barges feel better, thoughk, and there is something to be said for that.

Bing



Thomas D Curry -> (8/26/2002 12:41:03 AM)

One thing to correct is an LST is not a small target. It was called by its crew "Large Slow Target" Let me acess my copy of Jane's and see what theysay if anything about an LST and of course it is not listed. But in point they or any of the craft operating of shore other then DD's would only have the Mark 1a1 eyeball for fire control so accuracy from one of these craft would be minial. But they are good for superssing the hell out of someone on the beach. Hey that brings up something else. LST's could carry a Co. of tanks (?) how come they can only hold and indivual tank here. Enough said by me.



Thomas D Curry -> (8/26/2002 12:56:36 AM)

Update to my last post. LST are rather large at 328 feet with a beam of 50 feet around the length of a short Destroyer.
weighted inat 1800 tons again near Destroyer weight.
Armed with 1x 3"/50 DP gun 5x 40mm gun mounts could be dual or quad mounts 6x 20mm gun mounts could be single or dual mounts 2x .50 cal Mg 4x .30 cal Mg but since everything would be manually sighted accuracy would be minmal.
Again enough said



AbsntMndedProf -> (8/26/2002 6:54:09 AM)

Thomas D. Curry posted:

"Update to my last post. LST are rather large at 328 feet with a beam of 50 feet around the length of a short Destroyer."

That's one big target! I remember someone raising the issue that in SP:WaW LSTs only have a crew of 3. With a size like that, LSTs would have to have been automated on the order of the Starship Enterprise! :D :D

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't most, if not all, of them crewed by Coast Gaurdsmen?

Eric Maietta



Thomas D Curry -> (8/26/2002 7:21:39 AM)

Well I will correct myself LST's are listed in Jane's (Bloody pages were stuck together) and it is listed under USN. So I do not think it was crewed by the Coast Guard but navy personnel. They weighted more then I found on the net (But Jane's could be wrong) weighing in at 2,366 tons beached and 4,080 tons full loaded. Another thing when out fitted they could carry 8 recon aircraft. No real listing of arament listed in Jane's



Arralen -> (8/26/2002 7:07:54 PM)

All these barge-like things have "FireControl", "Rangefinder" and "Targeting" values of "0".

When I worked on the "German" OOB, I had to re-do the "Raeumboot" or "R-boot" (small mine seeker), and found "FC 4", "Rgf 4" , "Tar 0" to work ok.

These values are derived from those found in the OOB for the standard mounts - most of these guns in question do appear as towed AA guns as well. Maybe a little "discount" neede here and there for them being on a not-so-fixed boat hull, though.

hope this helps,
A.



AbsntMndedProf -> (8/28/2002 8:11:51 PM)

Ok, I can accept that LSTs and other landing support craft rolling around in the surf might not have the best 'to hit' %s. However, when I've played the Malta battle in MCNA, the Kriegsmarine destroyers supporting my KG had about the same 'to hit' problems, and they have stablized guns and trained crews. (Being an MC, I don't think you can tweak their stats.)

Eric Maietta



Bernie -> (8/30/2002 10:05:15 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas D Curry
[B]Update to my last post. LST are rather large at 328 feet with a beam of 50 feet around the length of a short Destroyer.
weighted inat 1800 tons again near Destroyer weight.
Armed with 1x 3"/50 DP gun 5x 40mm gun mounts could be dual or quad mounts 6x 20mm gun mounts could be single or dual mounts 2x .50 cal Mg 4x .30 cal Mg but since everything would be manually sighted accuracy would be minmal.
Again enough said [/B][/QUOTE]

Your info on the 40 and 20 mm's is correct, but speaking as one who spent a good 3 years fixing and firing 3"/50's and M2HB's (among other things) I'll attest to their accuracy firsthand. The M2HB (Ma Deuce or .50 cal) is perfectly capable of dinner plate sized groups in excess of 1500 yards with a gunner who knows what he's doing. And I've personally hit a 20 ft speedboat (drone target) doing 45+ kts at a range of 11,000 yards with a 3"/50 using manual sights. (I have pictures!) The 3"/50 was also usually coupled with a radar fire control director capable of tracking a beer can sized target (the radar reflector targets we used, attached to weather balloons and released, for tracking and firing excercises were a little bigger in diameter than a softball, being simply a round hollow metal sphere. A 3"/50 coupled to said FCD could usually hit that sized target out to 6+ miles within 4 or 5 shots (at a firing rate of 60 rpm for a dual mount...though only 5 rounds could fit the auto loaders at a time and the loading crews [called first and second loaders] could only handle a rate of about 15-20 rpm)

(BTW, that's me up there on the left rebelting .50 cal ammo during a shoot)



Thomas D Curry -> (8/30/2002 6:55:02 PM)

One question to you are you or recently out of the USN? Because if so we are talking abut 2 mostly different sets of weapons. do know about the accuracy of the M2HB as with almost no training I was able to hit a wrecked 1 ton pickup at 1,000 + yards with sustained bursts.



Bernie -> (8/30/2002 9:56:47 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas D Curry
[B]One question to you are you or recently out of the USN? Because if so we are talking abut 2 mostly different sets of weapons. do know about the accuracy of the M2HB as with almost no training I was able to hit a wrecked 1 ton pickup at 1,000 + yards with sustained bursts. [/B][/QUOTE]

My honorable discharge is dated July 29, 1980 :)

The 3"/50 mounts I worked on were originally manufactured in 1943 and refurbished in 1969 when they were installed on the ship I was serving on, the USS El Paso (LKA-117)



Bing -> (8/31/2002 12:11:47 AM)

When I was in Maryland's sunny clime - with the last or next to last AA gun battalion in continental US - the outfit went to Bethany Beach Delaware for practice firing with quad 50's. This was ~1956.

First, there was a difficult time persuading anyone to fire the **** thing. The noise and vibration are horrendous sitting in the sling between four powerful MG's. As is always the case, one of the cadre was appointed because he had actually fired the beast in WW2.

The AF provided a tow plane and sleeve for practice shoots. 5,000 rounds were fired in one practive shoot - without hitting the sleeve even once. During a pass the pilot observed that fifty caliber fire was arriving IN FRONT of his aircraft, rather than behind as it should have.

He dropped the sleeve and in no uncertain terms informed our unit he was going home. Who could blame him?

Bing



Bernie -> (8/31/2002 11:50:40 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bing
[B]When I was in Maryland's sunny clime - with the last or next to last AA gun battalion in continental US - the outfit went to Bethany Beach Delaware for practice firing with quad 50's. This was ~1956.

First, there was a difficult time persuading anyone to fire the **** thing. The noise and vibration are horrendous sitting in the sling between four powerful MG's. As is always the case, one of the cadre was appointed because he had actually fired the beast in WW2.

The AF provided a tow plane and sleeve for practice shoots. 5,000 rounds were fired in one practive shoot - without hitting the sleeve even once. During a pass the pilot observed that fifty caliber fire was arriving IN FRONT of his aircraft, rather than behind as it should have.

He dropped the sleeve and in no uncertain terms informed our unit he was going home. Who could blame him?

Bing [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey Bing, greetings from Fenwick Island! :)

My GF owns a condo just about 100yds from where you were firing. Think you can drop by next summer and help out with the problem of those pesky, banner towing, planes that seem to use our place for their turn point? ;)



Thomas D Curry -> (8/31/2002 1:22:00 PM)

Just spoke to someone who by chance was in the USCG and he told me that LST's were produced for the USN but manned by personnel from the Coast Guard. Also someone stated that it is listed as have a crew of 3. Try more like 3 to the fourth or 75-100 emn manning it.



Voriax -> (8/31/2002 1:36:32 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thomas D Curry
[B]Just spoke to someone who by chance was in the USCG and he told me that LST's were produced for the USN but manned by personnel from the Coast Guard. Also someone stated that it is listed as have a crew of 3. Try more like 3 to the fourth or 75-100 emn manning it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hello

A fast look at the SPWaW OOB's reveal that LST has a crew of 99, LCI's have 60 and the rest of landing crafts & barges have crews from 2 to 13.

Voriax



Bing -> (8/31/2002 9:29:38 PM)

First things first: Conway's "All the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946" lists the USN LST as having a complement of 111. The armament cited above is within the ball park, certainly there would have been variation in number of 20's and 40's, though " ... late in the war many had 7 X 40mm and 12 single 20mm but all were scheduled for 2 twiin and 4 single 40mm (with two Mk 51 directors) and the 12 single 20mm nounts."

LCV, LCVP and variants were the smaller craft with three man crews. They would have been carried shipboard, whereas I don't think an LST was shippable.

Bernie - I will persuade the US Army to get a quad fifty out of retirement. Are the Delaware State Police as friendly as they used to be? They used to arrest people and take them to jail for exceeding the state speed limit - they did so with a general's staff driver who happened to be doing 75 in a 65, on his way to pick up the general. The general was not happy.

We got even by having a towed 75mm AA gun jump hitch, leave the truck at about 50 mph, exit the highway under its own power, jump the ditch, break through a fence and take out a wide path in a cornfield. The farmer was HOPPING mad. (Dumb driver forgot to attach the safety chains - that's what they are there for.)

I think there were a few 120 mm AA installations in continental US but ours was supposed to have been the last 75mm flavor, perhaps they had a difficult time locating ammo. Nike-Ajax and later -Hercules AA missile systems replaced guns.

Bing



Bernie -> (9/1/2002 11:16:15 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bing
[B]

Bernie - I will persuade the US Army to get a quad fifty out of retirement. Are the Delaware State Police as friendly as they used to be? They used to arrest people and take them to jail for exceeding the state speed limit - they did so with a general's staff driver who happened to be doing 75 in a 65, on his way to pick up the general. The general was not happy.

We got even by having a towed 75mm AA gun jump hitch, leave the truck at about 50 mph, exit the highway under its own power, jump the ditch, break through a fence and take out a wide path in a cornfield. The farmer was HOPPING mad. (Dumb driver forgot to attach the safety chains - that's what they are there for.)

I think there were a few 120 mm AA installations in continental US but ours was supposed to have been the last 75mm flavor, perhaps they had a difficult time locating ammo. Nike-Ajax and later -Hercules AA missile systems replaced guns.

Bing [/B][/QUOTE]

I can't answer for the Delaware State Police, not having had any dealings with them yet, but the locals are a mite touchy. Last time I was there (about 3 weeks ago) I was bike riding down Rt 1 about 2am and found a disabled car on the shoulder with it lights on but no one in it. When I tried to report it to a pair of Bethany PD officers parked on the shoulder about 2 miles down the road I found myself pinned with a pair of spotlights and told NOT to come any closer (I was on the other side of the road, about 50 yards away). Though I didn't see it I had the strong feeling of hands on gun butts and shotguns being unlocked from racks. Now, I may have been a little scruffy looking, what with my ponytail and a 4 day beard, but I was in shorts and t-shirt on a bicycle for crying out loud... What'd they think, I had an RPG under my hat or something? :)

Obviously that farmer didn't stop to think about the situation. If he had he'd have realized he probably could have billed the army for the entire crop in that field...at top dollar. :)



Bing -> (9/2/2002 12:01:21 AM)

The farmer did get money from the Army. I would guess he got compensation for crops that were not destroyed - that's the way it usually goes. Someone else's money is always easier to spend.

Small town cops are the same almost everywhere. To give you an idea of what Gaylord, Michigan is like, a person in search of a crack house would have to drive 3-1/2 hours south to Grand Rapids to even have a hope of finding one. Hopped up kids robbing gas stations is about all that happens (once in a while a husband or wife shoots the other, but that happens everywhere in the world).

To cope with this massive crimewave we have: 1) Local police, including bicycle troops in shorts with the cutest knees 2) Sheriff's police 3) State police including regional post in town 4) DNR - who used to be the Conservation Department and are now empowered to stop motorists and arrest them as well as doing same to game law violators. ( I have friends who were charged with a DML by DNR personnel.)

I figure we have a cop for about every four or five civilians. Local government has a good thing going making money off drunk drivers.

For entertainment and to keep themselves in a state of operational readiness - we all know Gaylord is a hotbed of terrorists, don't we? - the police stage raids on kids in the woods illegally drinking beer - they bust the beer bust.

They wear night vision goggles. I am not making this up, this is fact: They chase teenagers thru the jackpines with infrared night vision goggles. These are not Columbian drug lords or anything like that, just kids having a few beers back in the boonies. In addition, plainclothes spies are placed in tactically prominent convenience stores to trap teenagers using false proof to buy beer. As if they could not get drugs of any kind any time they wanted.

There have been documented instances of the county sheriff and the state police drag racing to an accident scene to get there first and claim jurisdiction.

Welcome to our brave new world. OTOH it IS a clean place to live.

Bing



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