Mines in PBEM games (Full Version)

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otto -> Mines in PBEM games (8/18/2002 7:28:17 PM)

I'd like to know if there's a consensus on the use of mines in PBEM games. I'm especially interested in delay scenarios. I recently finished one where I spent about 10% of my purchase points on mines. They destroyed as many of my oppenents AFV's as my jagdpanzers.

I was surprised that mines were even available, isn't the delay supposed to represent a hasty defense in which the defender would not have had much time to fortify?

What kind of limits do others place on purchasing mines?



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/18/2002 7:33:07 PM)

I never use mines not a one.

But then I am likely stupid to not use them. The AI certainly gets good use out of them on me:)



otto -> (8/18/2002 7:45:57 PM)

It sounds like you understand my moral dilemma. I almost feel bad about using them, but they wreaked havoc on my opponent.
That's why I'm curious about whether there is a consensus on using the things.



Katana -> (8/18/2002 7:54:53 PM)

AFAIK most people don't use pre-laid mines, except maybe when defending against an assault. Mines laid during the battle are generally ok.



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/18/2002 7:57:15 PM)

Mines are there, we all see them, so are all the other toys, like the reeeeeally big arty pieces I use myself all the time.

There is no excuse for an opponent to complain if you "trash" him brutally.

But friendly games are always easier to arrive at with a more or less frank discussion pre game.

So if you like mines, be up front, and say oh I have used mines in the past. Then if his attack falls flat on it's face, congradulations, you an nasty opponent and a worthy threat.

Never refuse yourself a good strategy just because it works so well.



Orzel Bialy -> Mines are deadly as Hell... (8/18/2002 9:33:00 PM)

in this game if used en masse...and can throw an opponent right off his game plan if used wisely in lesser numbers.

I think I surprised the snot out of both Goblin and M4 Jess the first time I ever played them in a Pbem. :D :D
Mind you...I hate airborne drops and massive arty...to me they can ruin a game if limits aren't put in place. Anyway, at this time I was a FNG to the forum...and those two a couple of the "Kings of the Hill". I noticed in their posts what some of their tendencies were. (as to how they pummelled people from time to time.)

SOoooo...when I played them for the first time I launched a somewhat unfair surprise on them. I bought a bunch of mines and layed down double belts of mines with gaps covered by ATG's or TD's...to me this was no different from any other surprise in the game so I thought nothing of it.

After a couple turns I had both of them swearing to come to Wisconsin to kick my @ss. LOL. :D :D :D My minefields tore them to shreds because they weren't expecting it...which was unfair to a point I concede, but humorous none the less.

Anyway from that point on I have viewed mines in the same way as big Off Board Arty and Airdrops...as a weapon that needs limits to keep the games real and fun. I usually say 20 to 25 pts tops if pre-laid mines are agreed to...enough to frustrate and surprise, but not enough to win or turn the tide of battle with.

And there is my overly long and drawn out opinion on mines! :D



M4Jess -> (8/18/2002 10:04:53 PM)

[SIZE=3][QUOTE]After a couple turns I had both of them swearing to come to Wisconsin to kick my @ss. LOL. My minefields tore them to shreds because they weren't expecting it...which was unfair to a point I concede, but humorous none the less. [/QUOTE] [/SIZE]


We are still comming to get you:mad:

;)

I agree with Orzel, mines have their place but limit then for play balance...

I feel the most un-fair unit are the infiltrators knocking on your back door!:mad:

M4 Jess~



tracer -> (8/18/2002 10:52:26 PM)

Like anything else in PBEM, it should be discussed in pre-battle 'negotiations'. Any of my opponents can tell you I always put the following in my agreements (for a meeting engagement): onboard arty only, no aircraft/infiltrators, engineer laid mines only.

I get much more enjoyment (win or lose) knowing I played a better game, and not because I exploited a 'loophole'. Though I gotta admit it makes me laugh thinking about some of my opponents cussing out loud with every BOOM as they run into a 20-per-hex/2-hex-deep minefield. :D :D



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/19/2002 12:29:36 AM)

Mines are to Steel Panthers, what hordes of cheap infantry are to Advanced Squad Leader.

Perfectly legal, but they spoil the fun. And a person that isn't having fun rarely continues to "not have fun" for long, before finding something else to do.

Which is why any game played player to player, should always be planned out in advance. That way you don't end up wondering "where did my opponent go?"



tracer -> (8/19/2002 2:27:48 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]Mines are to Steel Panthers, what hordes of cheap infantry are to Advanced Squad Leader.

Perfectly legal, but they spoil the fun. And a person that isn't having fun rarely continues to "not have fun" for long, before finding something else to do.

Which is why any game played player to player, should always be planned out in advance. That way you don't end up wondering "where did my opponent go?" [/B][/QUOTE]

Like the children say, 'word'! Plus (and I'm bringing up a very old thread here), it startles the %&#$ out of me when a mine goes off unexpectantly...I'm getting too old to have soda shooting out of my nose. :D :D



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (8/19/2002 3:16:34 AM)

That is funny actually, because while it is uncommon, my biggest beef about mines is, when I am happily tanking along and then BANG!! my tank blows up.

It never fails to surprise me heheh:D



Orzel Bialy -> Funny but true.... (8/19/2002 3:42:38 AM)

I've had mines startled the sh*t out me too I must admit...especially if I'm playing late at night and all is quiet in the house. :D

There's been one or two times when I actually flinched from the wallop and cursed out loud before laughing it off. LOL. :D

Ah yes, funny stuff indeed! :p



Katana -> (8/19/2002 3:45:30 AM)

:D That's why I use them :D
The psychological effects are more impotant than actual damage.
(unless you have lots of mines)



tracer -> (8/19/2002 5:15:23 AM)

In the old thread I was referring to the general consensus was exactly what you all are saying, and as I remember, it turned into a 4-5 page thread from all the replies. I don't have an old version of SPWAW around for comparison, but I'd swear they actually lowered the sound in v7.0-7.1 too.

And Katana, I don't think its considered psychological warfare if your opponent has a heart attack! :eek: :D



Bernie -> IMHO (8/19/2002 5:28:08 AM)

IMHO, mines used during PBEM have their places. For example, a historic scenario, or pre-laid to defend from an assault. I'd also agree to mines laid down in a delay scenario. Other than that, mines laid during a game are fine with me. However, use reasonable limits. I might play one game against an opponent who bought nothing but arty, mines, strike elements and a HQ, but I'd never play a second game with them. :)



Taglia -> (8/19/2002 7:18:39 AM)

When I play I usually provide a limited "intel report" of my forces (and my enemy too) ... The attacker can say that "your spy has spotted an armored column with mechanized infantry ... and there is partisan activity in the area" ... and the defender can say "your advanced patrols have spotted some prepared AT positions and a minefield is *probably* placed there or there" ...

In this manner the game gets more balanced and more funny, especially for meeting engagements... It sounds okay for me that both forces would probably know something about thier enemies ... ok, maybe they can't know exactly how many engineers and how many Pz VI are there around, but they may be aware of heavy armored forces and heavy infantry displaced in the area ...



OKW-73 -> (8/19/2002 7:52:43 AM)

I like mines, theres nothing better than hear your opponent cursing and seeing his plans of blitzkrieg crashing to single minebelt in right place :D and yes, sometimes in the heat of night it just scare s*it out of me when hearing that "KABOOOM!!" suddenly :) but thats war about...expect unexpected and you'll doing just fine ;) Also i dont thing prelaid mines in pbem are necesserily unrealistic if thats the point some of you are trying explain?



G_X -> (8/19/2002 8:31:49 AM)

My cat hates Mines. I play with the volume pretty high, so if I'm rolling allong and step on a mine, you can watch the cat jump up, literally, into the air.

I don't like mines because they tend to be exactly where I need to be. I prefer Barbed Wire and Dragons Teeth, still tough to do and to get around without engineers, but a little more fun.


As to the whole idea of getting an idea of what the enemy force will be like, I kinda wish some of the guys I play with would do that, it'd make my life so much easier, I always tend to put my tanks up against his AT guns, and my Infantry-killers against his tanks. Never can get it right.



Orzel Bialy -> G_X, sounds to me.... (8/19/2002 8:40:51 AM)

like you need to utilize more scouts and recon units. :D

Funny as Hell about your cat! Mine learned a long time ago that the computer room was nowhere to try and nap while I'm in there. :D



Capt. Pixel -> Mines - and other obstales (8/19/2002 11:16:32 AM)

I managed to convince one opponent to completely avoid one of my flanks. Not because of mines, but because of Anti-tank obstacles.

He could, of course, see these already placed as he deployed, and it concerned him no end. :D Not knowing exactly what I was up to in that quadrant, he conceded the territory and let me have it. :cool:

The area was just as it appeared, a string of staggered AT obstacles. They wouldn't really have even slowed him down if he'd tried to navigate through them.

It sure didn't slow down my reactionary flanking forces BEHIND those AT obstacles. :D

Using his own fears and concerns, I denied him a third of the available front. This concentrated his forces under a more precise artillery bombardment (and priority targets), and gave me a free enemy flank to capitalize on. :cool:

I always consider that I'll have to deal with an enemy's mines, pre-deployed or game-deployed, in any battle. ;)



Capt. Pixel -> (8/19/2002 11:20:51 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by G_X
[B]My cat hates Mines. I play with the volume pretty high, so if I'm rolling allong and step on a mine, you can watch the cat jump up, literally, into the air.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Your cat wouldn't be named 'Bouncing Betty', would she? :)



tracer -> Re: Mines - and other obstales (8/19/2002 11:29:23 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]I managed to convince one opponent to completely avoid one of my flanks. Not because of mines, but because of Anti-tank obstacles.

He could, of course, see these already placed as he deployed, and it concerned him no end. :D Not knowing exactly what I was up to in that quadrant, he conceded the territory and let me have it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'm impressed...you pulled the old 'Jedi Mind Trick' on him.

Cpt. P: "You don't want to go that way"

Dazed opponent (in a monotone): "I don't want to go that way..." :D :D :D

I gotta remember to give that one a try!



Capt. Pixel -> Re: Re: Mines - and other obstales (8/19/2002 11:56:39 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tracer
[B]

I'm impressed...you pulled the old 'Jedi Mind Trick' on him.

Cpt. P: "You don't want to go that way"

Dazed opponent (in a monotone): "I don't want to go that way..." :D :D :D

I gotta remember to give that one a try! [/B][/QUOTE]


LOL

Sometimes you get lucky and can capitalize on your reputation for being a twisted thinker. ;)

{Between you and me, I wouldn't have gone near that area either. That boy is sick!}



Ivan -> (8/19/2002 12:47:53 PM)

yeah i once miss-used mines in a game against me pal.

20k points each, i bought...hmmm... a cr@pload of mines.
mined the entire southern sector. 4 hexes deep. i put no units down there.
all was going well, i saw my friend driving a huge tiger column that way.
buuuut...his air-strikes came and being the old version, he saw the minefield and what do i see next turn.
all activity in south just died and he pulled up.


:(



Curieus -> Mines (8/19/2002 8:20:57 PM)

I have used mines in a PBEM game against spain. There was some good defensible terrain i ruined because i laid mines. But then, given the troops i had, forests were extremely bad defensible terrain (look at the troops, point and they run). So i decided to block this terrain partially (leaving gaps). This also freed troops for an offensive in the north (which died under a massive 210 mm barrage. In short, a single, non continuous line covering between 30 to 50% of the front.



tracer -> (8/19/2002 8:57:06 PM)

I think the point alot are missing is that the vast majority of PBEM battles are meeting engagements; both opponents advancing into an area where they currently have *no* forces (as in 'no forces to lay a minefield'!). In a defend/assault or even a delay/advance pre-laid minefields make perfect sense...but to have them show up in a meeting engagement is about as believable as a Chinese redhead. ;)

But, to each his own.



Frank W. -> (8/19/2002 10:19:52 PM)

i believe you´re right.

in meetings there should be no mines.

in assault´s it depends of the dedending sides
tactics.




[QUOTE]Originally posted by tracer
[B]I think the point alot are missing is that the vast majority of PBEM battles are meeting engagements; both opponents advancing into an area where they currently have *no* forces (as in 'no forces to lay a minefield'!). In a defend/assault or even a delay/advance pre-laid minefields make perfect sense...but to have them show up in a meeting engagement is about as believable as a Chinese redhead. ;)

But, to each his own. [/B][/QUOTE]



rbrunsman -> Re: Mines (8/20/2002 4:04:34 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Curieus
[B]I have used mines in a PBEM game against spain. There was some good defensible terrain i ruined because i laid mines. But then, given the troops i had, forests were extremely bad defensible terrain (look at the troops, point and they run). So i decided to block this terrain partially (leaving gaps).
This also freed troops for an offensive in the north (which died under a massive 210 mm barrage.

In short, a single, non continuous line covering between 30 to 50% of the front. [/B][/QUOTE]

I never found any gaps! :mad: :)

I've only ever used engineer laid mines, but I don't think it's bad if my opponent uses them. The game is fairly balanced, so points spent in one place are points not spent elsewhere.

But I do agree that in a meeting engagement, it is not terribly realistic. But then again, neither is several batteries of 210mm arty supporting an otherwise small force.



Bernie -> Re: Re: Mines (8/20/2002 7:43:57 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]

I never found any gaps! :mad: :)

I've only ever used engineer laid mines, but I don't think it's bad if my opponent uses them. The game is fairly balanced, so points spent in one place are points not spent elsewhere.

But I do agree that in a meeting engagement, it is not terribly realistic. But then again, neither is several batteries of 210mm arty supporting an otherwise small force. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'll agree that mines in a meeting engagement aren't always realistic (unless the scenario calls for a behind the lines attack perhaps) but it's quite realistic for a small force encountering an enemy to call in all the arty they can. After all, such a meeting engagement is usually a front-line probe or scouting party with plenty of support behind them.



G_X -> (8/20/2002 8:42:18 AM)

I don't get this whole idea that a large attack force heading for another large attack force in scenarios like Meeting Engagement wouldn't have large caliber Off Board arty support. Yes, I can see them not having On Board arty support in large calibers.

Mines though...eh, I just hateses Mines.


And no, my cat's name is Tiger, and actually King Tiger. I got him about 11 years ago, and we've always refered to him as the King of the house because of the way he acted, I named him tiger because of the stripes he has on him.

Ironic huh? :D



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